2020-03-20 21:32:21 (edited by Ethin 2020-03-20 21:36:16)

@220, no, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that a lockdown worked in China because China has a different government and a different way of operating compared to America. The procedures they put in place included, but were not limited to: transport closures (both in and out of the city and country), with no exceptions; schools were closed indefinitely; all shops were shut down excluding those that sold food or medicine; transportation via private vehicles was band without special permission (this included public transport); limitations were placed on how many could exit houses (some places even band hat, requiring online orders); door-to-door health checks were made mandatory, with those who were ill placed into isolation (this caused a disabled person to reportedly pass on because he was left without food, water or help when his parents were quarantined); security guards were placed at most buildings to monitor temperatures of those who went in; residential compounds were shut down to all but their inhabitants; and masks became mandatory (China even scolded those in Inner Mongolia for not going out without masks). I highly doubt such measures would work properly in America, though some might (people have gone with the masks idea, though its shown to not affect the Virus's transmission rate). The thing I would be fine with would be closing the borders of states and the country, in and out. But some of the measures China used would not work in the way China did it in the US or just wouldn't work at all. And, as I said before, people are panic-buying because they fear exactly that. I'm not, mind; I don't need to buy out entire stores. But with people panic buying, and people forced to ration food because of that, a Lockdown of the extent that China did would probably not be the wisest choice right now.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2020-03-20 21:48:36

I'm all for getting through this one day at a time. I'm all for not playing the blame game. And I'm all for doing my part. After all, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. We're all in this together, and we all have a part to play, however minute it is.

2020-03-20 21:56:21

To that end, I picked on Trump earlier in this thread. While I think it was accurate, and while it was in response to someone saying they trusted Trump to do the right thing, this pandemic is not his fault. It's not really any one person's fault. There's dirt on a lot of hands. This could've been handled a lot better.

Ethin, tell me something. And really think about this.
Canada, just as one example, is already doing a few things that you listed. Many (but not all) nonessential businesses are shut down. Public transit is limited (not shut down entirely yet, but limited). People are encouraged to stay home wherever possible. Those who get the virus and are known are quarantined and treated to the best of our ability.
America is doing many of these things. Can you stop, think a moment, and explain to me why these tactics, and more that China used, wouldn't work in America? What is the underlying reason that they wouldn't work?

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2020-03-20 22:19:11 (edited by Ethin 2020-03-20 22:21:36)

@228, I never said that none of them would work. Some of them have already been done (e.g.: schools being closed, transport being limited, etc.). What wouldn't work, I think, would be the prevention of people from leaving their homes, or the limitation of how many can exit at one time. If we made it an 'encouragement', as we do now, we wouldn't need to route any police officers away from what they're doing now. But if we made an enforcement -- if we pushed the issue -- that would possibly open up more avenues for crime, because there wouldn't be any (or enough) officers remaining to do the rest of the work that police officers need to do. The security guard idea might work (though that might not, since that would depend on what places have private security forces). I'm also unsure of how the door-to-door health checks would be coordinated. Would the military have to get involved? The national guard?
Right now it seems like for some of the measures to work we'd have to answer quite a few questions first.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2020-03-20 23:02:47

So, school here has been shutdown until May twentioth, bars have been closed, and the Attorney General drawing up laws to have bars who attempt to get around the ban's license revoked until further notice, plus criminal charges. The parks have also been locked at night, because people play cricket at night. Royal Castle, Churches' Chicken, Pizza Boy's, KFC, Subway, Pizza Hut and other places have banned dining in and are only doing take out. And for the Trinidadian fast food places, its not fastfood anymore, because  you come in, place your order, then they cook the food. KFC has said that they will be beefing up their delivery force, because previously, it would take an order, to leave the KFC in San Fernando at 6 PM, to arrive at my home in STE. Madeleine, 2 Kilometres away, at somewhere in between half 9 and ten pm. Really bad. Also, 3 weeks will be taken from our July-August vacation to make up for the 3 weeks lost this term. AS ai said, toilet paper is either extremely scarce, or expensive. Don't talk for Lysaul, Clorax and sanitiser. I'm worried, because my mom, who has high blood pressure is coming down with the symptoms of the virus. I'm not sure if its actually the virus, or the common cold. I'm also worried about my friend, Rayanne, who has asthma. She's a really, really good friend. And I haven't heard from her in weeks.

You ain't done nothin' if you ain't been cancelled
_____
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2020-03-20 23:17:40

I agree with Ethin. The thing is, while I personally would be able to obey the rules of a lockdown pretty easily, there are a lot of people who, for reasons of selfishness, desperation, or both, would not. China's government is already oppressive; the US government is not. So I would imagine that the average Chinese citizen would be more willing to take harsh measures in stride, because they're used to doing what they're told or else. We just don't tow the line that way here. You also have to think of all the small business owners who are basically left high and dry here. Lack of financial stability leads people to do desperate things. I do not see this bill that's supposedly being proposed by the senate being feasible. The economy is already crashing; where, pray tell, is this trillion dollars that's going to provide some semblance of financial compensation coming from? Even if it works in the short term, the effects on the economy once things settle back into normalcy would be devastating. So, since something like that wouldn't work, how exactly are struggling people going to afford the necessary items they need to keep themselves afloat during a lockdown? I think that vulnerable populations--the disabled, elderly who live alone, etc.--are going to take this the hardest, since no one would be allowed to bring them essential supplies.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2020-03-20 23:29:14

Last I checked people were still and are still allowed to bring things to the elderly and disabled who can't do that for themselves. As strict as things have gotten over the last few days, that has remained unchanged, and I dont expect it to without some proper compensation.

2020-03-21 01:24:00

Even in China, mostly people were allowed to get essential supplies.

Okay. So what this really boils down to is that if you tell Americans what to do, they balk, even if it's the right thing, the best thing, they could possibly do.
I also want to challenge the notion that the American government doesn't really give much of a rip. Think of how many people have been busted for things, chased down, tracked down, harassed, even profiled for various reasons. The Chinese government appears to be bigger on the censorship of information, but if you think the United States government isn't big on telling you exactly what to do, and isn't controlling you, you're kidding yourselves. As I pointed out to you, most of your freedoms are, in truth, mere illusion dressed up to look like freedom. They permit you choices, but you're still penned in and can't generally escape the system. What they've done, however, is to convince you that you're free even though you're not. So if you're an American and you balk at being told what to do by your government, you're essentially a hypocrite. You will, to one extent or another, accept half a thousand restrictions on your liberty and your freedom on a daily basis, but the instant that those restrictions become overt instead of covert, the "right thing" ceases to matter, and the foremost thought - at least according to these estimations - is something that boils down to "I'm American, damn it. You don't get to tell me what to do.". Just have a think on this. They're already telling you what to do, and they do it every day in tons of little ways. The illusion of choice brings the illusion of power and influence, which most of us don't have. It's a really excellent way to keep people docile.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-03-21 01:35:45

Thank goodness I've still got my in-home healthcare worker.. Her employer has given her a short quiz for her to give me everyday to insure that I'm not infected.. I can't even answer "Yes" to having a sore throat.. Thats a bit much.. I'm not even near the virus, but I get it. I'd never endanger her or her her family. I've not had any opportunity to leave the country, and thank goodness have been nowhere near this virus. Plus she just took me to the doctor the day before the added security measures were put in place. I've been told that schools should be up and running again soon around here..

2020-03-21 03:27:07 (edited by Nocturnus 2020-03-21 13:27:55)

Man, when I disagree with Jayde, we end up clashing, but when I agree with him?  I really agree with him!  Thumbs up on 233.  I think I'm secretly a Canadian with an American Citizenship and Mexican parents.  smile
But if you want my honest opinion as to why, if such a measure were imposed would fail, if in fact it actually did, you'd have to look higher than the average American.  Yes, Americans are spoiled, but nowhere near as spoiled as those who are in leadership roles.  The fact is that this kind of thing has happened before; the year was 1918 and the situation was called an influenza pandemic.  Many diferences existed, but the biggest one I see was that during those times leadership was inspirational and thus was able to get things done.
Today, the stress that is generated by watching TV and the need to check on everything else going on around the world and stay connected is much greater than the will to truly survive, so I wager that what will drive people craziest are all things Jayde himself has mentioned throughout this topic, ranging from watching the news, to substance abuse and such, and some that he has probably thought about but not mentioned, such as giving into anxiety by overeating instead of exercising, the feeling that you're out of work and thus your worth and or value as a person has dropped/diminished, lack of sleep.  These are moments when I honestly believe friends and families could seriously take advantage because they have every excuse in the world to do it, to come together and truly see what life is all about outside of the internet of things.  Will you dance?  Can you tell stories?  For all the love you can find inside yourself would it not be possible to channel all the fear and turmoil you feel and put it to good use when you have nothing else to do?
To many of you, Jayde might seem like a hard and uncaring individual, but I wager that he has a greater grasp on this thing than many who are writing up their books on the subject, and for what it's worth, I wish I had more people like him around me right now.
Edited to fix Jayde from Mayde which owing to sleepiness I mistyped last night.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-03-21 04:13:51

@235, good points. I didn't intend to give off that impression -- that "American's balk at being told what to do". But ah well.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2020-03-21 04:39:46

I agree with different points about the US being on lockdown for different reasons.
I do think that a lot of people who think we are 100% free would find this hard because well, they don't care. And what about those sovereign citizens who think the government doesn't apply to them? If you don't know what I'm talking about, they are the people who many people stereotype as saying, "I'm not driving, I'm traveling". What will happen with them?
Also, if it comes down to it, so be it. Does that mean I will like it? No. However, at the end of the day, we're all better safe than sorry

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2020-03-21 04:40:23

I don't know how anyone can stay up on any of this without losing their religion. This really isn't that serious, except when it's bad enough to kill people. It looks like they've come up with a cocktail of drugs that could be a breakthrough and a game changer, except no, they didn't, not even close. Trump is the very reason things are as bad as they are here because he is an idiot, yet he is also the one man who can and will get us through this because he is exactly what this country needs. We don't have to worry about a shortage of toilet paper even as we check all the stores around town and see the shelves empty. I've heard about people stocking up on cleaning products, and guns and ammo. Guns and ammo? Is that how we're gonna beat this thing? Every day for the past couple of weeks the story has been exactly the same: more new confirmed cases, more deaths, more things locked down, shut down, cancelled and closed, with a reminder that it's worse than it appears, and a dire warning that it will get worse before it gets better, and that the social distancing and sheltering in place will drag on for a few weeks, months, even a year or more. When I see all of this along with suggestions and conspiracy theories involving Trump and the Chinese government, I wish I could just avert my eyes or go to sleep for a year or something.

2020-03-21 05:29:42

Yes I know, most people are doing this for an eventual crisis, but it's funny how american start hoarding weapons for the appocalypse.
Hey america, you now that you can't shoot down a virus just like you do with your clay pigeons and unfortunate people in your way?

Greetings Moritz.

Hail the unholy church of Satan, go share it's greatness.

2020-03-21 05:54:21

I know, right? Guns and ammo? Are you people serious? lol
Why do some Americans think weaponry is always the answer? I'm like, "yeah if people lose their heads and go out harming others.." But lets just not do that. Lets keep ourselves in doors if we are sick, and just not panic.

2020-03-21 07:56:14

can the americans explain to me why do they connect everything with guns?

want peace to be there everywhere around the world also I want an immediate sollution to be given for this war so that the bloodshed could be ended. live peacefully, let others also live peacefully

2020-03-21 08:18:00

Well, there you go. Toilet paper and guns, says a lot about our goddamn values. That, in a nutshell, is why we're going to struggle more with dealing with this virus than other nations.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2020-03-21 08:32:54

Lol now you guys are juxt stereotyping.

2020-03-21 08:38:13

@243 I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent.. I as an American am truly wondering..

2020-03-21 09:25:30

thanks for your valuable explanation

want peace to be there everywhere around the world also I want an immediate sollution to be given for this war so that the bloodshed could be ended. live peacefully, let others also live peacefully

2020-03-21 09:51:31

I have not only talked this out with my partner - who is a very intelligent woman in her own right - but yes, I've done a lot of thinking on this. Overeating and other maladaptive coping strategies are likely to go on the rise, if they haven't already. Sleep will be an issue for some, and those who suffer from non-24 might be even more affected than normal because whatever routine they might have had has been shot to hell.

Basically, we as a planet are essentially going to come to a crossroads where we choose either some sort of socialism or some sort of barbarism. Any bets on which way we're gonna jump? I hope for one, fear for the other.

Honestly, I am far less concerned with the virus itself, and far more worried about how people are reacting. A "me first" mentality makes me feel sick, but honestly, it's hard to blame folks for it because capitalism has essentially primed them for it. Look out for you and yours; don't concern yourself with the system. But now that the system is failing, or at the very least flagging a bit, suddenly the stakes are different.

Ethin, I know you weren't trying to imply the conclusions I drew, and if you got the idea that I was attacking you or your country, I'm sorry. I'm sure Canadians do similarly; Americans may be worse, but I'd be a fool to say that Canada is without blame here. But here's the bigger thing. You know that bit about how I said that choice is an illusion, and balking at the right thing is bad? Those things are true...but yet again, the system has been very cleverly designed to preclude tampering from individuals, and to encourage docility and compliance. If the onslaught of information is shiny enough, relentless enough and spun the right way, it really does become difficult to keep things straight. I'm absolutely not trying to sit here on high and judge the rest of you, but something Nocturnis said did and does resonate for me. I really have been thinking about this a lot, from a sociological and psychological and cultural perspective. This, after all, is right up my alley. So it's possible that I've come to conclusions that some of you haven't got to yet. Again, not lording over you here, but this is kind of what I do.

I want to reiterate that there may be bad people, even bad groups of people, but there are no bad countries. I am frustrated with the way Americans have been primed to respond to crisis with firearms. I am frustrated that the initial reaction of the Chinese government was slow, and that one element of that slowness was probably a hesitancy to accept blame. I am frustrated that some European leaders have been far too lax about social distancing suggestions and the like. I'm frustrated that Amazon and Whole Foods, who turn enormous profits every year, are currently most known for the fact that the CEO, who owns his own freaking island and is worth several billion on his own, is asking his employees to take unpaid sick leave. In fact, I'm frustrated by anyone who is exploiting this crisis, in any way, to improve their bottom line, or to minimize damage to their billion-dollar company at the expense of workers. I'm frustrated by a lot of things. But I am absolutely not trying to impugn any one of you for your citizenship. If you are proud to be an American, there are many things worth being proud about; we may differ on specifics, but that's all right. Ditto if you're proud to be Chinese, Italian, British, whatever else. I am absolutely not trying to trash your country. At worst, I am discussing trends and such that tend to relate to your country; some of them may not be positive, but that does not translate into a negative opinion of you as individuals. Please just keep that in mind. The reason I jumped on the anti-China rhetoric is because I felt that was wandering pretty far afield.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-03-21 10:43:54

Jayde wrote:

Honestly, I am far less concerned with the virus itself, and far more worried about how people are reacting. A "me first" mentality makes me feel sick, but honestly, it's hard to blame folks for it because capitalism has essentially primed them for it. Look out for you and yours; don't concern yourself with the system. But now that the system is failing, or at the very least flagging a bit, suddenly the stakes are different.

which is just one of the many things that the  article I had posted talks about. its truly a fascinating, refreshing read that just cheers yo a bit.

A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops. On my desk, I have a work station…

2020-03-21 12:58:51

what cheers you a bit?
we must get over this global pandemic as soon as possible
please god
I am tired of hearing news about people's death
thousands dying lakhs infected what has happened to the world from 3 centuries why does the world face a large scale global pandemic in every 100 years. do any of you know a reason for it. because I fail to conclude anything

want peace to be there everywhere around the world also I want an immediate sollution to be given for this war so that the bloodshed could be ended. live peacefully, let others also live peacefully

2020-03-21 13:15:41

I normally don't respond to these threads, mainly because it's harder for me to articulate my thoughts.

Anyway, once all of this is over, god willing, do you think things will be any different?

I think we'll all go about our lives like nothing's happened.

We'll just call it a terrible tragedy and move on.

It really is sad that humanity won't learn from this, some will no doubt, but I think the majority of us will just go back to living our normal lives.

As I write this, Australia has reached the thousand mark, with about 400 in New South Whales.

Schools are still open here, they're saying at this stage it's better to keep them open because kids will just be hanging out at shopping centres.

We're not in lock down yet, but people are being encouraged to stay home and only go out for essentials.

Movie theatres are apparently still open here, not sure how long that will stay, seeing as we can't have out door gatherings of no more than 500 and 100 for in doors.

If you decide to go to the movies, you have to have a seat between you and the next person.

2020-03-21 14:34:53

I really, truly hope that we learn from this, and that the world is never quite the same. However, the cynical part of my brain says that if this is halted sooner rather than later, capitalism will just come back, do its thing, and everyone will forget all the good things done in the name of social progress during a crisis.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1