2020-08-04 17:54:37 (edited by TheSecretLurker 2020-08-04 18:25:23)

As awesome roguelike and complex games player and avid accessibility guy @zkline has already posted a few years ago, I would like to reintroduce this amazing game to this community (apologize for long read in advance) ---

Cataclysm Dark Days Ahead is a huge dynamic randomized open-world complex ASCII roguelike survival game with very good realism elements - you have to survive hordes of zombies and nether Eldritch monsters, search for food, water, shelter, keep yourself warm, worry about learning skills via practice and books, utilize that knowledge that you acquire for learning to keep yourself properly armored - crafting various equipment, sew and reinforce clothes, build a building or a deathmobile, explore a HUGE amount of different vivid locations - including peculiar ones such as labs, temples, caves, shipwrecks, cursed mines and etc

Moreover, this game has TREMENDOUS mod support with a HUGE amount of mods that work perfectly fine, I myself am currently working on a huge mod which adds over 150 new overmaps (24x24 grids), new weapons, armor, lore, monsters and stuff

Now, the most important thing to note is that the developers are working slowly on making the Linux curses/terminal/console version (for now) properly accessible as this thread shows https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclys … sues/39638 , and they will do it even faster if they get even more feedback from more visually impaired accessibility improvements wanting players - this is the issue made by my online friend, you see that it was partially addressed, some interface accessibility has been made better, but there is still more, and according to the devs, this will take them a pretty good amount of time to properly improve due to them still transitioning in terms of some things that they're doing and some problems with the nature of their renderer

The game can be played via Linux (not sure about the virtual machine, maybe someone will be willing to test it) in the terminal/console - basically the curses version via respective Linux screen reader best of which as far as I know is the SpeakUp, don't even try the Windows version - it is completely inaccessible due to the fact that Windows console is basically an emulation and not the true console - here are the links to latest Linux experimental versions of Cataclysm - http://dev.narc.ro/cataclysm/jenkins-la … 64/Curses/ , and here is the link to latest Linux stable version of Cataclysm - https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclys … 478.tar.gz

Now what else I would like to ask or discuss to be precise is ASCII roguelikes in general - I want to ask a question and hear your opinion about them - I've heard that as long as the game can be run via the terminal/console (Linux is best at this obviously) and played with the screen reader - no matter if it's a text game, MUD or ASCII roguelike - the general foundation for the accessibility will be there, so it will be playable until the end of time as long as it can be launched via the console - is this true?Not just for ASCII roguelikes exclusively but for any text game (including roguelikes) - a huge and complex MUD, for example, if it can be played via console that already makes it like MOSTLY accessible no matter how ugly or non-intuitive interface may be, right?

Moreover, there is such a huge of fun and complex and roguelike games - Nethack and it's variants like Slash em, ADOM, Brogue, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, Doom Roguelike, IVAN, Cataclysm Dark Days Ahead and many more, many of which are obscure, what is your opinion about them and accessibility in them?I mean, if Aurora4x is accessible basically, a roguelike playable in a console is definitely mostly accessible as well, right?

Oh and I have some good news, a few months ago in April I was informed by Caves of Qud developers that it is still in their plans to make a separate accessible console ASCII version of their game once they get out of the alpha, but to me Cataclysm is still my most favorite roguelike especially due to modding capabilities and almost infinite amount of content

2020-08-04 19:41:16

Sadly no linux for me. sad

Hail, Daughter of Hatred. Creator of Sanctuary. Hail...Lilith.

2020-08-04 19:56:00 (edited by TheSecretLurker 2020-08-04 19:56:07)

arnold18 wrote:

Sadly no linux for me. sad

I am not sure if accessibility and screen readers will work nicely with the Virtual Machine, someone has to test this or reply if they have experience with virtual machine and accessibility in games, but anyway, in order to play properly roguelikes and even Cataclysm alone, I would definitely even dual boot (or triple boot if you are on Mac smile ) Windows and Linux

2020-08-04 20:19:34

Hi.

I'd like to try this out on a lynix vertual machine but don't know what version of linux has accesssibility built in and also how do you play the game?


If it's like a mud, e for east and w for west, I might not be as interested.

I'm gone for real :)

2020-08-04 20:38:33 (edited by TheSecretLurker 2020-08-04 20:38:55)

brad wrote:

Hi.

I'd like to try this out on a linux virtual machine but don't know what version of linux has accesssibility built in and also how do you play the game?


If it's like a mud, e for east and w for west, I might not be as interested.

Once you download and set up Linux, I believe that you need to download SpeakUp http://www.linux-speakup.org/ , here is the guide http://linux-speakup.org/spkguide.txt , @zkline and other Linux users may explain this better than I do

No, it does not play like a MUD - it plays like a 2d chess-like game - you move via arrows - up, down, left and right, just like in many roguelikes it has a special command in game called look_around which basically allows you to read any tile one by one by moving with your arrows, along with look around the other useful command look_for_nearby_items_monsters that allows you to find the locations of nearby monsters and items along with the distance between you and them - direction in which you have to go to get close to them

Once you press ESC, the look around cursor shifts back to the center - to your character again, so with some effort you can examine your surroundings properly

2020-08-04 21:09:51

Every game I've run off the console on my dinosaur ass p  has worked and have been readable with a screen reader, from Adam to warsim to dcss have all worked. Whether they are playable, and how playable they actually are if they are depends on how the text and ascii is arranged, and how much information this conveyed through the written word.

I also would like to try this out but don't have the system and would rather not habe to run it off of a vm as I am not familiar with that OS and don't want to mess things up.

2020-08-04 22:02:47

A completely accessible roguelike, with no need for the ascii graphic sat all, and just playable from the pure text would be a wonderful thing.

If such a thing ever appears on Windows I'd be the first to give it a try, but at the moment trying to virtually run and learn a completely new operating system and screen reader just for one game seems way too much like hard work to me, indeed I'm rather confused given the number of accessible games that play in the console window anyway, the wastes, world of legends, grave wark, warsim, plus many more old dos games from the XP days that sadly won't run under windows 10, why the hell the windows version wouldn't be readable if it's just a matter of reading a console window.

But hay, hope people who do use this obscure linux thing get some good out of this.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-08-04 22:13:52

I've decided it's not worth the hastle of downloading a version of linux, and a program to vertualise the it, and learn new keyboard shortcuts.


I tried linux before and while it worked; I prefer windows.

I'm gone for real :)

2020-08-04 23:27:55

KenshiraTheTrinity wrote:

Every game I've run off the console on my dinosaur ass p  has worked and have been readable with a screen reader, from Adam to warsim to dcss have all worked. Whether they are playable, and how playable they actually are if they are depends on how the text and ascii is arranged, and how much information this conveyed through the written word.

I also would like to try this out but don't have the system and would rather not habe to run it off of a vm as I am not familiar with that OS and don't want to mess things up.

Thanks!This is actually good news - that any text/ASCII game is technically accessible as long as it can run from the console, this does bring a smile to my face smile

brad wrote:

I've decided it's not worth the hastle of downloading a version of linux, and a program to vertualise the it, and learn new keyboard shortcuts.


I tried linux before and while it worked; I prefer windows.

It's fine smile I'm just spreading this for anyone who is interested in roguelikes in particular and can get Linux to run it, some day they will make accessibility for the Windows version as well, I am sure, no idea why it does not work to be honest

2020-08-05 04:47:01

Hey,

I haven't tried this in quite some time, but one thing which crossed my mind just now was to wonder how well this might work with the so-called Windows Services for Linux? They are basically a way to do Linux development and use text-based programs without either a virtual machine or a separate OS.

I definitely understand why Linux in general might be a bit off-putting, but I'm afraid for the moment it's the best option for getting this particular game to work. I don't know of a way to play it remotely via Telnet, though that would be another option. *ponders*

2020-08-05 07:48:39

Hi.
If the text console itself is accessible with screenreaders, then the game can be made fully accessible. People are playing muds in Windows with screenreaders and on other platforms as well.
I'm not very much into text based console games other than muds. However, I played a lot of text adventures in MS dos back in the 90's.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
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2020-08-05 16:24:56

To those wondering why the Windows version won't work even though it's still a console application, that is because it's not. It's the same problem with Dwarf Fortress and some other games. The windows console might not provide features they need, so they write their own console implementation. I believe the devs of this game custom-draw everything to the window, which means that screen-readers have no idea how to parse it unless with OCR.
AS for the Windows Subsystem for Linux, I'm trying it now. Already the main menu isn't working, and I see on the issue that that's not done yet, so maybe it will be better once more of the items in the issue are done.

2020-08-05 16:28:50

I'll have to try it with WSL later. The main menu worked fine the last time I poked at this, but it was a year or so back.

2020-08-05 16:47:07

Maybe I'm not setting something correctly with NVDA, or I just don't know how to navigate the menu LOL.

2020-08-05 21:29:39

Hi,

Unfortunately, I forgot that NVDA has rather poor handling of the cursor in command-line programs, especially compared to Jaws. This is probably the single reason why rogue like games are more annoying to play than they ought to be. It can be summed up like this: NVDA doesn't make it easy to keep the review cursor in a  column when navigating the screen, it always brings you to the left side of the window. Jaws and Speakup both do a better job of this. I'm still experimenting, but not as hopeful as I was for a quick solution.

2020-08-05 22:56:28 (edited by TheSecretLurker 2020-08-05 22:56:43)

zkline wrote:

Hi,

Unfortunately, I forgot that NVDA has rather poor handling of the cursor in command-line programs, especially compared to Jaws. This is probably the single reason why rogue like games are more annoying to play than they ought to be. It can be summed up like this: NVDA doesn't make it easy to keep the review cursor in a  column when navigating the screen, it always brings you to the left side of the window. Jaws and Speakup both do a better job of this. I'm still experimenting, but not as hopeful as I was for a quick solution.

I really appreciate your attempts in trying to make it work - especially since you're always trying to make games accessible where it seems very hard - truly awesome work you do, mate smile, I guess the fact that Linux version works is more than enough for now, I am just bringing the attention of audiogames community to this game because it is truly a gem and in my opinion, if more people try playing it and leave accessibility related feedback, they will make the improvements to accessibility much faster

But it's true, kinda a bummer that they are not really fixing Windows console version anytime soon

SLJ wrote:


Hi.
If the text console itself is accessible with screenreaders, then the game can be made fully accessible. People are playing muds in Windows with screenreaders and on other platforms as well.
I'm not very much into text based console games other than muds. However, I played a lot of text adventures in MS dos back in the 90's.

Oh this is amazing, really amazing, now all my doubts are cleared - so any game can be made accessible with properly working console - a huge complex roguelike or a simple text game or a big MUD, this is really amazing, thank you once again smile

2020-08-05 23:12:17

Hi,

Just as a point of clarification, the comment I made above about NVDA's cursor mode handling applies to using the Linux version in the WSL, or Windows Subsystem for Linux, which is basically a fancy Linux virtual machine/emulator. The native Windows version  does not, unfortunately, work very well.

I wish I had a way to make NVDA's review commands work better, but it would require re-writing the way a core part of the screen reader operates, and I'm not sure how easy that would be.

2020-08-06 04:54:31

I have Jaws. Does that work okay with the Windows Linux services?

2020-08-06 05:00:48 (edited by Lucas1 2020-08-06 05:01:42)

So, digging through the code and analyzing the font with NVDA on WSL, I've figured out that when you're in a menu (tested with the main menu) the color of the item you have selected changes. When you are focused on the New Game option, the text "New Game" will show as white on blue with NVDA. If you are not focused on that option, just the letter N will show as white on black to indicate that that is the shortcut you can use to access the item. Other letters of the item will be light grey on black. It's incredibly tedious to check things this way so I don't know if it will help anyone, but yeah that's a thing.

2020-08-06 05:25:11

Yeah, current versions of Jaws will work a little better with the Linux services. The way you explore things is by using the Jaws cursor to get familiar with what's surrounding your character at any given time. It's a little hard to explain, and I need to get more familiar with how it actually works in practice, but it should be a lot easier than dealing with NVDA's current setup  would be.

Lucas1853, thanks for clarifying that. The rest of the game uses menus like that quite often. They nearly always have shortcut keys which are faster once you get used to them..

2020-08-06 05:28:27

Something else I just remembered…


It should be possible to play the game using TDSR, the screen reader written by @Tspivey on this forum for Mac OS and Linux. IT also has decent  cursor navigation support.

2020-08-06 07:59:00

@TheSecretLurker: You're welcome.
You might find the following site interesting as well, where you can read about amazing accessibility for a huge mud:
http://mush-z.com

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2020-08-06 12:20:39

Would appreciate any improvements to CCDA on windows or any advancements you guys make on its accessibility. Right now i'm busy with Stellaris so i don't have the energy but CDDA is a very awesome game that i really would like to play!

twitter: @hadirezae3
discord: Hadi

2021-01-24 19:37:50

Hi folks, first and foremost, apologies for bringing back this rather old topic. After a lot of incredibly useful help, I’ve set up CDDA to run on a Linux VM and I’ve been messing around with it for a bit of time, and I’ve been wondering if somebody more experienced with the game could perhaps share a few tips on how we can play it. For example, how would you go about returning to places of interest, like buildings and crash sites, once you’ve left them, do you have to remember where everything is and hope that you can navigate back to it? Also how would you realize when and where there is an item or monster, and when your character is hungry, thirsty, tired etc? Finally, is there some way how we may obtain information regarding the layout of the world, like where buildings and touns are?

Hit up my YouTube Channel at
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC9wWO … R85ILY1VQ/
Their you'll find some gaming videos, and what ever els my confused mess of a brain decides to upload. Hope you enjoy it and Stay safe, folks.

2021-01-24 20:43:48 (edited by TheSecretLurker 2021-01-24 20:44:16)

Samuel Farrugia wrote:

Hi folks, first and foremost, apologies for bringing back this rather old topic. After a lot of incredibly useful help, I’ve set up CDDA to run on a Linux VM and I’ve been messing around with it for a bit of time, and I’ve been wondering if somebody more experienced with the game could perhaps share a few tips on how we can play it. For example, how would you go about returning to places of interest, like buildings and crash sites, once you’ve left them, do you have to remember where everything is and hope that you can navigate back to it? Also how would you realize when and where there is an item or monster, and when your character is hungry, thirsty, tired etc? Finally, is there some way how we may obtain information regarding the layout of the world, like where buildings and touns are?

Samuel, I suggest you to join official developers' and players' Cataclysm discord where the developers and other players will be able to answer all of your questions - the developers are very interested in making this game screen reader accessible and along with the friendly players will answer your questions there :-) https://discord.gg/jFEc7Yp

Awesome work by the way, did you manage to install SpeakUp as well or are you using TDSR that @zkline suggested to use as well?