Actually, this brings into view something that's not only been addressed here but on the other thread about attempting to deal with this. The greatest flaw of society and laws. If no one notices a legal violation, it can't be punished. Of course, relying on that principle is risky, but ignoring it gives an incomplete picture of things. That being said, I never thought this would happen, but I think I am with Jayde in full on this topic. Never thought I'd ever type those words considering on how many topics we've clashed on in the past. On the matter of copyright, I think we might be in near  complete agreement. It's a sucky and broken law, but one we have to deal with sooner or later. That being said, I'd be in complete favor of at least a re-consideration of exceptions. As to which way that reconsideration should go is another matter entirely, but eventually we will be forced to do so anyways. It just depends on what forces our hand. Also, we should consider an initiative to change international law, but that would only be possible if we could get more clout.

@104 Wow. Weren't you the one who defended the old sounds the most? You said they are the whole point of the game and without them, the whole hype of the game is gone and that replacing all the sounds is taking away the pokemon and mario party vibes? Now you're disappointed in exactly those people and label people who don't want to play with the new sounds not worth it since they probably are trolls anyway? Changing your opinion is the whole point of a discussion, but this disappointment seems awfully hypocritical.

i gotta agree with post 105 and 106, i can't say much about that, just the fact that it makes no sense what so ever

well, I won't start pouncing on dan for what he said, it's dan, and only he knows why he said it. But I am for the game, and I still hold it strongly that the sounds are a staple to the comunity, even to those who don't know about the actual franchise themselves. someone said in page or two a go, that it's not the reason of piracy, or copyright, the reason why you're pushing this so far, and the reason why it stings to alot of us, is we only want to actually get a chance to play games that our familys, not to mention big franchises, left us out on. you see? It's these sounds, rite here! not to mention gameplay and stability, that keeps us as blind gamers, hooked! I am not a rager at all in games, noone can peg me on that. I am for the game, but even if he were to change the sounds to crazy party, he should also change the name, as it won't really be crazy party anymore. The thing that not alot of you understand is, crazy party, was ment to be this way! doesn't matter about expences, don't yall think if he wanid it to be diffrent, he would have done something about it? It's this kind of persistance, that he's trying to do. Yall see, he's not pushing the piracy trane, but something much more. Oh and @jayde, sorry to make asumbtions of you, didn't know you play. But that's why asumptions are there rite? To be corrected if anything.

If you are totally blind, you are never going to get to actually play Mario Party successfully. No matter how hard you try, that's just the way it is. There are dozens of other games this is true for as well.
Pokémon is a different story, admittedly, since while accessibility is up and down, and you'll never get the complete picture, you can still play most main series pokemon games as a blind person.

Juan, what it sounds like you're saying is that because Pragma has given people a chance to play an approximate version of one or both of these games, his sounds should be left alone. By this logic, someone in the community should be able to pirate a bunch of Final Fantasy assets and make a Final Fantasy clone. Or Legend of Zelda. Or Mortal Kombat. Or any of half a hundred other franchises. Except, that's not a good idea precisely because it's using pirated assets.

If the Japanese community can produce free audio games with lush soundscapes, and can evoke a certain feel while doing it, then I daresay so can we. Take Shadow Rine, for instance. It pretty much has a basic SNES-style action RPG vibe, and even though it's not stealing hundreds of sounds, it does a great job.

I'm sorry, but the argument that Pragma's game needs pirated assets in order to be a good game is just weak, and it doesn't work. Remember, I've played both this game and experienced some of the original source material here. Does borrowing those assets help immediately evoke a certain vibe? Well sure it does. I won't deny that. But is that necessary for playing the game? Not at all.

Here's where I say something you folks really won't like though.
The reason I say that this whole thing is a slap in Pragma's face is very simple. Basically, what Pragma wants to do is make a game that's very very similar in almost every way to Mario Party or Pokémon, and one of the shortcuts he used to achieve mass appeal is by using pirated assets. Basically, most games have to fly on their own laurels to some extent. They need to succeed or fail on their own merits. But what Pragma did, in essence, was to use a ton of someone else's work and say "Hey, see, my game is just like theirs!". You folks talk about how hard it would be to replace those hundreds of sounds; yeah, uh, how hard do you think it was to -create those hundreds of assets in the first place? Basically, anybody who's spouting the "these pirated assets are necessary" party line is arguing that it's okay to shortcut your way to success by stealing somebody else's work. Last I checked, we're...really kind of against that in the audio gaming community.

And perhaps the reason at a glance that something like AA's sound pack doesn't get quite the same attention, BTW? Yes, it's full of copyrighted assets, no argument there. But there is a game without that sound pack. You can play AA without the sound pack and the game itself is essentially unchanged. AA doesn't live or die by its pirated assets. But by the argument that continues to crop up, apparently CP does. While you may think this is a strength, it's actually a weakness, and really shows off the lack of originality and willingness to steal, so long as it's in the apparently good cause of evoking nostalgia.

Now let's take this one step further.
What if my reason for stealing assets is because I want to make a game but don't have money? Is that okay?
What if it's because I really really really freaking love these certain pieces of music and I want you to experience the game a certain way, but I know I'm just not going to be Nobuo Uematsu's equal? Is that okay?
What if I just felt like it? Is that okay too? Really give this some thought, folks.

Really, what some of you have arbitrarily decided is that nostalgia is a good enough reason to tolerate piracy. Why is that? Really sit down and chew on it. If we're supposed to be improving as a community, why are some of us saying that nostalgia, or trying to mimic the sound of another game, actually makes a good audio game? By this argument, really most of our attention should be on ripping sounds from popular projects, slapping on a fresh coat of paint and calling them by slightly different names. Clearly, this is the key to popularity and success.

Never mind that whatever you might think of a faceless corporation, there were actually individuals in those projects who worked like dogs to create some of the things you know and love. Never mind that the gaming industry in general is chock-full of stories of companies treating their employees badly, of harsh deadlines, of unrealistic expectations, and of employees who are overworked, undercompensated and prone to mental health problems because of unreasonable working conditions. Never mind that we're absolute death on clones because they steal code. Why is stealing code so bad but stealing sounds is not?

If you can give me an example of where someone was warned for calling an argument bullshit, please let me know.
I try to be very, very careful to tear someone's argument apart, and I try very hard not to attack them personally.
DanGero is not a bad person because he made a bad argument.
That said, if you can provide evidence of what you're saying that's comparable enough, then not only will I apologize, I will update the punishment thread to give myself a warning.

Okay, Nocturnis, I'll bite.

Using the graphic audio example, I actually don't have a ton of experience, so I'll take your word for the fact that they reuse sounds over and over. My guess is that they have very likely purchased the sound libraries in which these sounds exist, such that by the terms of their license, they're free to use them as you describe. If there is evidence that this is not, in fact, the case, then I'd agree that's somewhat problematic.

Alter Aeon has dozens or even hundreds of sighted players who either use the D-client, or their own client of choice. My first four years on AA I spent not using MushZ because I didn't know it existed and, early on, it didn't exist in the form it does now. There are undoubtedly players who would not play without a sound pack, but the mud is thriving anyway. I mean hell, if you want something comparable, Aardwolf's writing is worse, its grind is less interesting, it's repetitive, and its quests are either banal or baffling, take your pick. Yet that game has over a hundred people logged in regularly. No sound pack. Clearly MUDs may benefit from sound packs but they don't require them.

Now, as for my personal feelings. Here's how I break it down.

I have no particular loyalty to the corporations themselves who make billions of dollars in profit. As entities, I feel they are often more harmful than good. Anti-capitalist bias is showing, but I don't care; you did ask. People shouldn't exploit workers and value money over well-being.

However, I also realize that within these corporations are people. In addition, sound assets, and music especially for me, represent artistry. As such, there are artists within Nintendo or other faceless corporations who have done some pretty amazing work. Many of them have become famous and are paid well for their services. Others are overlooked. Most nevertheless had to work extremely hard, and not always in good conditions, to bring us the sounds and music we enjoy.

Taking my admin-ness out of the situation, my view is quite simple. I played CP for awhile and just didn't think much about it. Then I started realizing just how many sounds and music bits were pirated, and it started to chew on me. It was then that I began to feel that Pragma was basically borrowing someone else's fame, riding their coat-tails, as it were, to bolster his own product. To be clear, he put in a lot of work with the coding and organization and all that, but most of the ideas aren't really his, most of the musical assets aren't his, and to my knowledge, most of the sound effects aren't either. Once I see a thing, I can't un-see it, so I began to have a much harder time supporting this game and its development, because frankly, if all you're really going to do is faithfully recreate someone else's game, borrow their assets without giving them proper compensation, and ultimately profit socially (not financially, that would be an entirely different thing), I find that unspeakably slimy. It is the sort of thing which makes me extremely wary of posting a music track I wrote for the scrutiny of the community, or of sharing my writing. People who feel it is okay to support this behaviour have proven that what matters, at least in that instance, is their nostalgia, or their happiness, and not ownership rights or moral integrity of artistry.

"But wait!", I hear some of you wanting to cry. "You're only on a crusade against Crazy Party because you don't personally agree with it!"
It's easy to say that, but it's not true.

I have had well over a year and a half to consider my stance, and whether or not my vocal attacks on its viability for this communitr are motivated primarily by either my desire to see the community safe, or because of personal bias. I have also spent the last two and a half years or so in a program of study which teaches us a lot of tricks concerning ways to distance yourself from a situation such that your bias - because we all have it - is minimized. I'm sure that mine shows from time to time, as well; I'm not a robot. However, I'm confident that my reason for being as loud as I've been is for the community's benefit. Even if Nintendo were to show up here and tell us that CP was never going to cause anyone any harm, I probably still wouldn't play much anymore. However, I would obviously stop trying to get it removed from the community, and if anyone gave us grief about it, I'd point out that we got official sanction to let it slide, and that it does not represent a willingness to tolerate copyrighted assets in the audiogames community and should thus not be represented as such.

Does that answer your questions?

I just want to chime in here real quick. I am totally blind, have been all my life, and I know it's not the same. It's similar. The genre is the same. That's cool. But this is why I've never bought the "sounds are what make the game" argument. They help, but the idea that they are fundamental is just not universal enough to be used as a talking point.

If I want pokemon nostalgia from my high school days, I don't play CP to hear pokemon songs. I go watch Let's Plays or other challenges, or speedruns. If I want to channel Mario, Zelda, Sonic, any of that stuff, I go to any number of places and do it that way. Crazy Party, even with my experience with watching folks play Mario Party, does not generate the nostalgia it apparently does for others.

Zarvox, thanks for the info. As someone who was formerly sighted, your perspective is definitely interesting and valuable.

I had very poor vision. But I got every ounce of gaming from those non cooperative eyes as I could lol

Don't worry. I saw your questions for what they were and I didn't feel attacked in the slightest. Thanks for the help.

I was extremely disappointed to see Pragma's answer, because instead of wanting his game to be...well, his game, he just wants to make a sound clone and profit socially from it. As I said in a previous post, extremely slimy. But if this were all it was, and it was somehow legal, I'd have made that point and then been done. After all, I'm not here to make people quit playing if they enjoy it and don't have a problem with what Pragma's doing. I'm acting in defense of the forum, however, so that's why I vocally stand where I do.

I am very curious what happens if the copyright violator is dead. Namely, of course, Jim Kitchen's games. I suppose they could come back on the forum for linking to it, so I understand taking that step, but still. Yeah. Copyright law is very unfair and draconian the best you could hope for is a fair use argument, but even that has grey area. At the end of the day, you might be able to argue that Crazy Party falls under that scope, and the scales weigh into its favor due to being free and transformative to a degree. Ah well. What can you do?