2020-05-18 00:22:42

Hi everyone,
I'm coming here to talk about something sort of concerning with the forum and their know piracy policy, which don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with that.
What I do find troubling though is this topic:
https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/3460 … vm/page/2/
I'm not sure why the mod in post 56 decides that he would lock the topic, issue out a warning and remove the link as Mac OS is completely free and does not classify under pirated software. Anyone could head over to apple's Mac app store and grab that dmg, and anyone can go ahead and build a VM for someone. By the logic I saw being used in that topic, the CP game should also be gone from the forum, but since this is a popular audio game people seem not to raise any concerns.
It's just something to think about, and if there is something I'm missing please let me know and I will stand corrected, but for now I do think the administrator jumped the gun on that one.

Ivan M. Soto.
Feel free to check out my work and services.
http://ims-productions.com

2020-05-18 00:28:03 (edited by defender 2020-05-18 00:35:54)

Concerning topics like the one you've posted, it's because the mods aren't experts and the most experienced people aren't around much.
It's really that simple.


CP has always been a pretty big hypocrisy though I agree, but it's kinda hard to blame them in a way since if they took it down people would riot.
When your stuck between a rock and a hard place, where saying that certain piracy is okay means that now every instance is up to interpretation and worst of all your very own site's rules can be used against you legally, well I guess 95% conformance and a bit of convenient gray area is pretty understandable from an actually making shit work point of view.


In the end I think you can blame copyright laws most of all, for being so rigid while also having confusingly inconsistent enforcement, but it would be nice if the mods would do some of their own research on how the laws actually apply to them rather than crowdsourcing and then not actually trusting the answers they get.
It's not like there aren't dozens of articles out there breaking it down into proper English for nervous web admins, and if it were me I would just say no direct links to files widely known to contain copyrighted material (meaning pragmapragma.free.fr would still be okay) and no promotion of piracy.
But now the rules are written so changing them would only confuse the shit out of people and make the mods look weak to the kids, so we kinda missed our chance and if we want the forum to stay online it would probably just be best to ignore it or bring inconsistencies up in private rather than playing with lighterfluid.

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2020-05-18 00:49:37

The question can  be answered very simply. Jayde does not know what a virtual machine is and never bothered to look it up. The fact that he closed the topic so confidently and classified it as standard piracy shows enough. Really laughable, nothing else to say. Now, I will be sure to report anything illegal as soon as it pops up. No more audio themes with Voiceover sounds, no more TTS skits with Apple Alex or Vocalizer in them, no more virtual machines of any kind unless it is Linux.

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2020-05-18 00:55:23 (edited by queenslight 2020-05-18 01:36:15)

Well, there "was" this old thread  I made about a Mac OS 7 emulator back in 2013?
The actual thread, is gone now. In addition, the original D B that it was on anyway, is no more.

2020-05-18 01:05:23 (edited by defender 2020-05-18 01:06:15)

@3
Understandable, and tempting for me as well, but maybe don't burn the community to the ground before we have a propper backup okay?
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should.

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2020-05-18 01:11:32 (edited by Dan_Gero 2020-05-18 01:13:15)

Usually I would reluctantly side with the admins on piracy discussion, but Jaydes argument against that VM holds literally 0 ground. The fact that he went and gave Simter a warning then locked the thread so no further arguments could be made is simply petty at best. Mac OS 10 is free software. Oh sure, you have to pay for the hardware, but the software is completely free of charge and free to obtain. That VM isn't piracy, and anyone who thinks it was needs to do their research.

Friend me on Discord: Garrett#0750

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2020-05-18 01:20:35 (edited by pitermach 2020-05-18 01:23:10)

There is a difference between just talking about virtual machines and distributing a premade Mac VM designed to run in VMWare on Windows. What the Apple license actually states is that yes, Mac OS itself is free, and you're entitled to virtualise it, but only if you're doing so on a Mac for development purposes. This is why you can just get a DMG from the app store, plop it into VMWare Fusion and just click create VM and be on your way, working sound, networking and everything. If you want to achieve the same thing on Windows you have to use a bunch of additional tools to patch the Mac bootloader, install kernel extension drivers for generic network and audio drivers, as well as patch the VMWare executable itself in a few cases and all of that is very much not officially endorsed by Apple. So in that context I think there was a valid case for removal here.

Edit: proof

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

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2020-05-18 01:32:24

So...

Here's that one link I shared in that other thread..

https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/


Also, I updated post four.

2020-05-18 02:20:20

Hi, folks,

I did my research on this before pulling the trigger. I've learnt my lesson when it comes to jumping guns. That doesn't mean I'll never slip again, but it does mean I'm more careful than some of you folks would like to think.

This wasn't petty. It was well considered. I'd have done the same for anyone else doing the same. It is not personally motivated either.

To be clear: MacOS is free to use under certain conditions, but from the research I performed, those conditions do not include a VM on a windows machine. If it was just "Hey guys, this is the new link to MacOS" or whatever, fine. But the tool was meant specifically to get around Apple not wanting you to use their software in this fashion, and it was being spread with an "Apple is a huge company, so they're not gonna care" mentality. Those are pretty big red flags, and I think I was more than justified in what I did.

Also, please bear in mind that I was one of the folks advocating for CP to stop being allowed here because of the literally hundreds of illegal assets it contains. I like the concepts, I think it's a hell of a project combination and I'm glad it's free (if it was paid, we really would have to remove it from the site, for obvious reasons), but piracy is piracy. I've been hoping folks would do the right thing and update the sounds and music for literally years now, and no one's doing it. I like this hypocrisy as little as the rest of you, and I haven't played CP much at all in the last year and a half or so precisely because I don't like being hypocritical.

Rule 3 was written precisely to deal with just this sort of behaviour. If all you do in general is discuss that using MacOS on a Windows VM is possible, or slowing down your game or whatnot, that's not really breaking rule 3, as you're not trying to get others to do it, and you're not trying to legitimize it. Simter clearly was trying to legitimize something that Apple, the proprietary company in question, doesn't want you to do. If you've downloaded this software, using it implies that you're going to agree to the rules governing its use. If you can't do that, or don't want to, then stop using the product, or be more careful of what you read. Ignorance under the law is not an excuse.

Was this an enormous, earth-shattering, forum-destroying deal? No, it wasn't. But it was big enough that there was really no reason to either leave the link up or leave the thread unlocked.

Simter was trying to get around Apple's terms of service on this forum. That amounts to a form of piracy, admittedly not as blatant or dangerous as some, and probably quite benign in the hands of most people. I stand by my decision on this.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-05-18 03:35:18

Nevertheless, you could stand to be a little less harsh, if only a tiny bit. A warning for such a comparatively miner offense seems a bit overkill.

Friend me on Discord: Garrett#0750

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2020-05-18 03:35:58 (edited by jack 2020-05-18 03:37:20)

A license agreement is a license agreement. You will see, even in the circles where this stuff is discussed regularly, that you are on your own re: obtaining the software.
Apple may be a trillion dollar company that isn't the shining accessibility example by a landslide, but piracy is still piracy nonetheless. The mac is serialized hardware, and the hardware specs are enough of a product key for mac osx that, it just works, as it were. One of the bigger wins for them in years past, in fact, given that windows license activation at times as a legitimate pain in the ass for honest customers. That said, the situation with Mac OSX specific distribution is exactly that of game roms for emulators. However in this case legally owning a mac still doesn't necessarily entitle you to run it on a non-Apple branded vm but literally all the mods are asking is to keep distribution on the down-low, as in, off the forums. Simter went blatantly against that, hosted a preconfigured vm (who knows if there are any back-doors) and he had done this after the mods assisted him in a successful reclaiming of control over his account, so that's also kind of a slap in the face as well. You'd think after that he'd be a bit more considerate...

I'm the only adventure at c: master hahahaha I have unlocked just about everything!

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2020-05-18 03:40:17

To be honest I have no clue why some people keep bringing up the CP argument when clearly forum users were the ones asking for an exception when it comes to free audio games. I don't get what is the goal or the point of that. What do you want, admins to go fully enforcing the rule on all the games? It's not because they don't want to do it.
As for the original VM in question, such utilities are passed around on thousands of forums with no consequences whatsoever to anyone, so I can't say I see the point. And no, those  aren't piracy oriented forums or anything like that. A few notable tech sites including instructions for doing exactly this include HowToGeek, Lifehacker, Insanely Mac forum and Gizmodo. However, we are audiogames.net, the largest forum on the Internet that is constantly being monitored by Apple and thus we must strictly conform to their licence agreement. I won't post any links on here, but a simple Google search run Mac in a virtual machine on  Windows shows my point exactly. This won't be the case if you Google crack for X software. You won't be seeing that on any forums with a good reputation. One more thing, no more discussing of IOS betas on here guys, because from now on we strictly conform to Apple's licence agreement which was already violated back when the topic about IOS 13 beta was created.
One last thing that is now forbidden to discuss on here according to Apple, our new forum administrator is jailbreaking. Yep, that's right, the recent topic created here talking about jailbreaking is from this point on illegal.
FYI Jade, on the front of the articles room there's an interesting topic. It's called Working: how to install an IPA file to your iOS device 2020. If we open it and look for a link, and open that link, the title of the page will immediately say, "Cracked iOS & Mac App Store Apps Free Download | AppCake - ". I would think this is much more important than a virtual machine, but what do I know.

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2020-05-18 03:47:04

Wow. I never thought I'd see the day where Jayde can be argued to have sided with corperate interests. Lol!
I think the biggest question we should ask as well is, who could Apple go after. Does Apple have recourse against the forum if they let this stand. From their,  if yes, then that was pretty much a mandatory action. The matter with CP is dubious, but I think Jayde layed out that one pretty concisely. If no, then we have an issue of forum rules on our hands at that point. This is an interesting situation to be sure.

I have a website now.

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2020-05-18 04:12:44

Believe me. My personal bias would have me just ignore this. I don't generally hold grudges, but I also don't make exceptions because I hate capitalism.

The fact is, I'm one of the people entrusted to help this site run smoothly, and that's the spirit in which I did what I did.

Now, as for you changing the goal posts to say I was harsh to Simter? He's gotten warnings before, and when confronted he seems to have an "Apple doesn't care" mentality. If this had been a new user, no prior offenses and honestly curious or ignorant of the possible harm, then maybe they get the link taken down and they get a firm caution. No punishment. But intent matters, and history matters as well.
I'm not going to start profiling people. Folks who do silly things once aren't suddenly born criminals who are always itching to make a mistake. I'm a huge proponent of a big-picture perspective, and it seems to me that Simter would do better to face demonstrable repercussions for his actions. That said, he needn't be banned either, not for this, since no, it's not the end of the world.

Yeah, let me go check out that article, because if that's linking directly to jailbreaking, then pointing folks at it is probably not a good idea. Thanks for the heads-up. See, this is proof positive that I won't catch everything, so I appreciate the help.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-05-18 04:59:01

Hey Jayde buddy, as you are always talking about CP and the hundrets of copyrighted assets, what about  talking about the other games which basically do the same thing?
Let's see here, rhythm rage, basically stole assets from all over Rhythm heaven, Rhythm Tengoku, killer instinct, Uptown Funk by Bruno Mars, need I to go on?
And what about the alter eon soundpack? Ever cared and took a stab at the music folder? Street Fighter iV Akuma theme, the blue oni theme which isn't even properly renamed, basically the same thing, interesting you admin people never said anything against that, you gotter wonder ...

but I agree with Nidtsa here, i will report every Mac Alex Sapi Skid, sound themes, Jailbreak or Beta discussion, you name it.

Greetings Moritz.

Er nahm sie dann ins Stoßgebet,
der Kirchturmpfal zum Himmel steht,
Der Wein geweiht, die Erde bebt.
Dem Herr seih nah im Stoßgebet

Thumbs up +1

2020-05-18 05:09:49

If you're going to ban people from posting MAC MVS, then you may as well close every jailbreaking topic on this forum as well. After that, pretty much everyone on the forum is gonna be mad at you for taking this anti-piracy thing too far, because that's the line we're crossing now. Things are going from grey area to just plane ridiculous.

Friend me on Discord: Garrett#0750

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2020-05-18 05:17:09

DanGero, please don't inflate the situation any further than it is already.
Someone tried this a few months ago and it just sort of fizzled and died. The same thing will happen now, I'm sure.

It's simple. If you want to break Apple's terms of service, or you want to engage in piracy, or you want to bend the rules to your heart's content, just don't do it here. Saying that you have a torrent, or that you've made a skit, is not grounds for punishment. Telling people how to do it, where to get it, how to set it up, is problematic.

Funny you should mention AA. When I sat down and thought about it, I realized that I feel much the same way about it as I do about CP. Guess who hasn't played too much AA in the last year and a half?

Rhythm Rage is a problem too, I agree.

Knowing that we don't want to encourage piracy, and also bearing in mind your personal stances on this, why keep bringing things to our attention. You believe that we'll have to say "Oh my god, you guys were right all along. Our bad. We'll dial it back. Sorry about that", but the truth is quite the opposite. If anything, there are probably some games and projects floating around here that really shouldn't be tolerated, and if you want the clamp to tighten considerably, go on trying to prove the same tired points. It cannot possibly get you what you actually want, and it's not going to result in a sudden crisis of conscience and a softening of the rules. That's really the only reason you can have for starting to try and dig things up. You don't actually want things to tighten down, you're trying to call our bluff. Perhaps my bluff, in particular. If you actually want to loosen things, this will get you exactly what you do not want. If, on the other hand, you actually want to help us run the forum better and aid us in doing our job in making sure that piracy is kept to a minimum at least here in public view, then thanks in advance for the assistance.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-05-18 06:02:47

We should go on strike.
I agree, the mods are a bit harsh, but Jayde's just doing his job. You cant be angry at the dude for that.

While I hate to say this, but, we cant attack Jayde one. It's an entire team of mods.
You guys should really ease the bombardment of someone whose doing their unpaid job.

But I will say, Jayde, stafftwam, cool it with the warnings and topic closures.

The past is obviously in the present
Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it

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2020-05-18 06:16:41 (edited by jack 2020-05-18 06:23:10)

@DanGero: You'd be putting up a strong front were it not for the fact that you are forgetting that jailbreaking is actually legal. The method used to install alternate apps on the device, while the poster wasn't directly encouraging crcks, does point to a store called AppCake, which is or used to be a pirate haven. Jailbreaking itself however is completely legal. IOS public betas, are, legal. This is exactly what happens when people get carried away in raging against this, this is an argument not unlike the might as well ban search engines argument. I.e. It's busted, might as well accept htat.
The Lifehacker/Howtogeek guides do not actually have a preconfigured image ready. You're always on your own for obtaining that. When Apple used to sell dvd installations, you would go and buy one if you wanted to go rogue and install it virtually. Technically, you paid Apple for the license, essentially. They could go and tell you you can't install on non-Apple-branded hardware. But you still nevertheless paid them for the licensed software. Now that that is no longer available, people are, quite literally, on their own in obtaining their virtual mac software, and it is definitely against policy to distribute actual copies of the operating system.
Why does this matter so much anyway? There are tons of other blindness circles/communities where you can talk about this. This is the audiogames forum after all.

I'm the only adventure at c: master hahahaha I have unlocked just about everything!

Thumbs up +1

2020-05-18 06:41:08

I've got nothing personal against Jayde, or any of the admins for that matter. If any other admin said the things Jayde is saying, and I know they would, I would be saying the same thing. Also, Jayde, remember that until now, I've always been understanding of why the rules are there. Hell, I still do understand why the rules are there. At this point though, it looks like you're taking the rules way too literally. As pointed out before, jailbreaking is also against Apples terms of service. Are you going to start considering anything that breaks Apples terms of service, Microsoft's terms of service, Google's terms of service, or my dog's terms of service as a form of piracy?
Hypothetical scenario:

Forum User 1 wrote:

Hey guys, how can I jailbreak my IPhone. After all, I paid $1000 for this phone, so I should be able to have full control over it.

Jayde wrote:

Moderation: Jailbreaking is a violation of Apple's terms of service, so doing this is considered piracy. This thread is being locked, and you'll be receiving a warning. Don't do it again.

Forum User 2 wrote:

Really? Are you serious? It's his phone, shouldn't he be able to do with it what he wants?

Jayde wrote:

Don't keep pushing this, or we'll start being stricter.

I can't see a single difference between what's going on now and the hypothetical situation I just made up. Is ruling this forum with an iron fist really the approach you desire to go for, Jayde?

Friend me on Discord: Garrett#0750

Thumbs up +3

2020-05-18 06:53:03

No Jack, according to Apple's terms of service jailbreaking is not legal, in fact no more legal then running Mac OS in a virtual machine. However, according to the actual law, i.e., not the fine print you see in Apple’s terms of service, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with running a virtual machine of any kind unless your giving access to software features that you should be paying for to other people for free. Ergo, not Mac OS. Unless Apple changes their mind tonight and makes Mac OS paid software, it’s not illegal to distribute a Virtual Machine of Mac OS, plain and simple. I could argue this point all night if I have to, but my stance will not change, now or ever.

Friend me on Discord: Garrett#0750

Thumbs up +2

2020-05-18 06:58:56

Hi.

Well Jayde, either everything gets locked down and copyright infringements get warned acordingly or not at all, currently it seams you only react on the things you are interested in yourself, things like audio movies, CP where you still haven't done a thing and apples VM.
The rest, hey let the shit fly, I like it so screw that.

greetings Moritz.

Er nahm sie dann ins Stoßgebet,
der Kirchturmpfal zum Himmel steht,
Der Wein geweiht, die Erde bebt.
Dem Herr seih nah im Stoßgebet

Thumbs up

2020-05-18 07:03:02 (edited by ignatriay 2020-05-18 07:27:42)

I personally felt the actionss taken where... Removing the link I get, however locking the thread... I feel that was a little too much. Something that I find highly ironic though, is that while one cant run mac os on a windows machine, one can, however do the opposite. Windows on mac is legal. Highly ironic though lol. I, however, agree with others. While, apple, let's face it, they say jailbreak is ilegal why? Because they only want the user to run their software the way they made it; jailbreaking itself is not illegal. After all; why payed for the phone? Who owns said phone, said, device? Who makes the decisions of what to do with it; the user. Thus, jailbreaking is a user's decision; not apple's. After all, its the user's propperty. That's like saying, oh, you cannot lend your computer to anyone because you payed for your programs, etc; not someone else, so you cannot lend out your computer. Granted Apple does not like for the users to jailbreak, however, just because they don't like it or encourage it, doesn't mean its ilegal. Its legal under the law; does apple, or other companies make the law? Do they run politics? Are they in congress? No.

sound designer for mental vision
take a look at
My freesound pageWhere I post sounds I record. ps: if you use my sounds, remember to credit me smiley

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2020-05-18 07:32:18 (edited by jack 2020-05-18 07:33:55)

@Dan_Gero: Two completely separate issues.
The dmca has a very, very specific exemption that allows for jailbreaking of IOS as legal. So as much as Apple would like to call it illegal, it is not technically illegal. As jailbreaking holds many benefits, or at least used to, it was longsince made a dmca exception. Notice that the exemption did not go into reverse-engineering, which is why it didn't even so much as cover rooting of kindle devices when the exemption was made. I bring that up as that was a major issue when ebook publishers used to place drm that would not allow books to be read with the Kindle's then primitive text to speech engine. But since jailbreaking is confirmed to be legal, nothing is stopping discussions of that. Nothing can stop discussions of that specifically. Running a virtual machine of something in such a way not expressly allowed is a whole different story altogether. A jailbreak implies you already own the device. A Mac vm on windows implies that one is seaking to run an unowned copy of MAC OSX. You did not buy the hardware, therefore you do not own a license for the software. The two are one in the same as far as Apple is concerned.
I really don't get why this is such a problem when there are so many other spaces to discuss this stuff on. Some people really need to get out more, for other reasons as well mind you.
@ignatriay: Ironic indeed, though it makes more sense when taken into account that Windows was never made hardware-specific. Anyone, from customers seaking to build a virtual or physical machine, to OEM partners, has unparalleled access to a full, retail, installable copy of Windows.

I'm the only adventure at c: master hahahaha I have unlocked just about everything!

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2020-05-18 07:38:51

You guys are a bunch of drama hogs. 90% of you. If Rhythm RAge or Beatstar had legal assets, i'd be charging you 20 dollars for each of these games. Would you rather I do that? I know I'd be earning more money that way, but I also empathize with those people who can't / don't want to pay for the game, exactly the same as the crazy party dev is doing I'm sure. If he tried to replace each and every sound in cp, he'd need thousands of dollars to make up for it. Sure, you're gonna say oh oh oh there are free sounds out there, but they're never as good as using commercial sound libraries.

So, there you go.

Your #1 internet trollveloper waz ere.