2020-11-02 17:01:28

Most of these developers lack creativity.

2020-11-02 18:29:36

Sure, rant about the menus, even though it is the least important point out of all the ones brought up here. We don't have an FPS game using HRTF, that's all you need to know. We don't have one with proper controler support, possibly using force feedback as well. There, I gave you two ideas that don't change the mechanics of your game in major ways.

2020-11-02 19:30:58 (edited by Dakonna 2020-11-02 19:31:04)

@27 unfortunately, that's (mostly) an issue consisting of two parts. One is the programming language. Bgt can't do hrtf natively. All you can do is set up bridges for other libs like Sam Tupy tried to do, which failed horribly. Same goes for native controller support. You use bgt, you're not going to get it and the best you can do is hack something together using j2k. Second, most blind devs these days probably haven't played even one single mainstream game, so they have no idea what they, or their games, are missing when it comes to 3d audio or controller support. It's sad, really. There's plenty of playable stuff out there, and today, it's not 99% fighting games. I'd say now it's about 95% fighting games, and that number is decreasing, thank the beer gods.

I used to be a knee like you, then I took an adventurer in the arrow.

2020-11-02 19:40:24

Oh absolutely, I am not denying these are the issues of BGT, and that is a bigger problem, everybody wants to use this same code base and build their games on it, so each game has the same flaws, unless you have the experience of Sam and Carter and know how to fix them, which most beginners don't and should not in fact. I don't know, it's easy to just say move away from BGT, but clearly nobody is  doing so and who knows if they ever will unless Windows updates force them  to, which I really don't want to happen since there are tons of great offline games we would be losing.

2020-11-02 20:07:30

guys, here's what i think.
before i start talking though, 2 little notes:
1. i don't give a single crap of what you might think of me after this post.
2. this is what 3 year of post reading and clone war listening did.
we all say new stuf, we all say lets do this, lets do that, but how?
my question folks is, we need somehing new. ok! what? and right there we give the ideas, happy about giving them. how do we realize the thing? and the answer is 404 answer not found, at least in 99% of this comunity, wich sincerely some times made me laugh, other times made me rage for how sik it could turn.
want something new, ok ideas, but possibly show how you can make them.
sure we're not gods, and we can't do anything just with a clik, but for gods sake, anybody has a brain and anybody could start thinking, giving an idea, and that idea could be taken by somebody else and be used.
i bet 95% of us have great ideas, problem is, that allmost no dev really listens to it. a good example could be  any idea we give for updates in single player games.
as soon as an idea pops up, the dev might say sure wil do it, but after time passes by nothing happens, not all the devs do that, in fact there are good devs who do listen to the player base and try doing their best on including the best features that the players suggest.
but the thing is, when a dev comes to this comunity, and i say this myself since i'm trying to become one, all i can find in this comunity was a witch hunt for clones, for a main mennu, for a sound, for a mecanic of the game.
if i was te tell you that i'm working on an fps, the first 2 things that i would get from here would be:
1. cloner!!
2. cloner!
so those are the main reasons why devs around here don't change.
why should i change my rotu or my b h? so that a piece of crap could come and tell me that i stole that from there and this other thing from that game?
any dev would prefere bug fixing and weapon adding instead of totally new feature adding, cause it has a good chance that a toxic member of this comunity could turn against him and just start a flame war.
we all know that it's a matter of a sincle post, one dude shouting, clone! and anybody would throw all the gasoline of the world on top of that fire.
now, after i whent over that poins, lets get on an other one:
sounds. sounds here are the key, since a game is basically made from those, thanks to no graphics, so, and here admins or mods could hate me for saying it, why the hell do we rage and start looking at any game for stolen sounds?
lets be serious now, you guys, had a discussion on cp. cp using sounds from long dead games that nintendo isn't producing anymore and isn't making profit out of it, so yeah, isn't that a simple useless flame war on the comunity wich, we all know, would do anything to defend cp.
and finally getting back on trak, talking about sounds, if you guys want to put on that rule that i saw on that mud thing topic, what would a smart dev do?
hmmm, lets see. would just say fuck you all, delete his account, make a web site, and he would still have his / her game up some were.
we tend to see ag.net as the only whay of getting a game, well, heads up, it's not, so guys this is the other big wall that you could just tear down so that devs might feel less controlled at gun point.
and finally, this being my last arrow, any player that plays fps games.
yes, us. we all know that anybody here likes fps games, and that would easily trigger a clone pointer on anything new that comes out.
it was like that on tk, wich even if you guys had a war over it, is still there standing, you had it on sudden attack, wich guess what? still there standing, and you had it for who knows how many other games that you banned, but nothing happened.
want to know why? cause when you kill something, rs for example, you leave a hole. the hole doesn't stay there for long, is filled by something else. could be clones, or could be a good non forked fps.
want fps games to stay up, then before starting the flame war that you like so much, think at least 5 times before pulling the trigger of that shotgun, cause you might just kill the 12341234182374658765th fps game that's going to be forked just cause players want it back.
good day, and hope my post was good for anyone here

2020-11-02 20:20:09

Most blind developers, especially younger ones, not only have never played a mainstream game, but don't have a very nuanced appreciation for what combat is like in any sense. This is why the only thing that matters for guns in these games is distance and firing rate, rather than proper aiming, recoil, etc. Sniping in fps games doesn't mean perching yourself on an elevated surface like a hilltop or a tower and trying to aim at people from far away, it just means a rifle that has really long range.

@3, yes, the goal of FPS titles is to kill each other. But that doesn't mean they have to be that simple. Adding additional layers like those "bells and whistles" you mentioned does, in fact, make a difference. Mindlessly mashin the fire button is not the same as tactically using weapons or other mechanics, or cooperating with a team to hunt down another team.
@13, I'd argue that multiplayer in fps titles, like fighting games, is actually the main component. Sure they have campaigns, but that's actually what's meant to be additional content... most people expect to spend the bulk of the time playing online with friends in teams or in free for all, with the campaigns as something to play when you want  bit of a break. But it's definitely true that the fps titles that are being cranked out by this community need offline content, as well as online.

What I want? I want an fps with realistic gun physics and realistic ammo counts. Something where it's not just a race to see who can press the arrow keys and fire button the fastest. Less ammo for guns so you actually hve to carefully consume rounds, and proper aiming that requires you to actually find a good position when run and gun just doesn't work. And I want to see this idea of a progression level system disappear where you keep your gear and upgraded statsevery time you log in. I've never seen a mainstream fps do this, or if it does, it's in a much more balanced way that doesn't give newbies less motivation to play. Better to have default loadouts, and for levels not to effect actual stats, this is not an rpg... levels or ranks could be for bragging rights, or possibly leader boards. Basically, something with a bit more balance and more nuanced gameplay than who can shoot the fastest, reach 51234678 health first, or the like. IT also wouldn't hurt for people to, you know, look at mainstream fps titles and how they work and what makes each one unique, rather than the unimaginative just give me a gun and let me blast away gameplay we've been geting of late.

Discord: clemchowder633

2020-11-02 20:29:10

I would argue that playable mainstream games are way less than 95 percent fighting games. Its more like 55 to 60 percent. That number is definitely dropping though.

2020-11-02 20:41:41

@Assault:

To be fair, mainstream FPSes have their own isues. I absolutely loved the craziness of COD4 Shipment. Small map, frantic action and that game had run and gun down well on that map. I got bullshit kills by just yeting grenades anywhere I could...

Let's take a moment to figure out why Cod4 Shipment worked so well.

1. It had weapons that unlocked at various ranks. Here's the thing. Just because you unlocked a new gun didn't mean it was better. You had used your current gun for so long you had the risk/reward of oh should I stick with what I got or go for the new gun and learn that one? You unlocked attachments and skins for your weapons by playing and beating challenges, some passive, like the Marathon one, run 26.2 miles, some to get X number of kills with an attachment, Y headshots with this pistol or so on, that's how you unlocked things as well as levelling up.

You had 5 loadout slots as wel as the five default ones that had a mix of stuff you couldn't unlock for a while for various styles. Hel you had to get to a certain level just to make one custom loadout and then unlock more slots.

You had perks that gave you bonuses.

You had regenerating health.

You could be a run and gun hero,, a sniper who camps all day and rages at being snuck on and stabbed, a grenade launcher wielding noob...you could play how you wanted. You /had/ to aim down the sights for snipers though.

There were maps for everyone, or, if you were like me, just go on Shipment 24/7 and blast at folks.

Of course, COD4 had issues, the god damned tactical nuke was one, killstreaks being another. Put a Harrier over spawn and enjoy the free kills, har har har, it had that 2000s ultra pisy gamer culture (MW2 had it beat for that), and it had its own balance issues, and on PC at least, a fuckton of hackers, and certain weapons were flat out /better/ and it wasn't even close, and some weapons were almost guarunteed to show up in a loadout else you had no hope of countering things.
The perks were broken too, but not to MW2 levels of absolute bullshit lunge from 50 feet away and one hit kill someone...

Warning: Grumpy post above
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2020-11-02 20:41:56

@32, I think that would depend on your definition of playable. lol

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2020-11-02 21:23:30

Well, this is just why I am playing video games (mostly, like 99% of my time). Japanese devs just turned my attention to play audio games but that's it. There were some (just few) examples of other audio games I was having fun just for sometime but not that much to be honest.

It is hard to play music without any practices and it is hard to make games without playing them (I mean you can , but everyone can see the results here very often)

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2020-11-02 22:33:37 (edited by Still_Standing 2020-11-02 22:41:05)

gotta agree with post 9 here, + the fact is that some people just keap complaining and bitching about anything and evrything no matter what, for what reason? who knows
i think what i wanted to point out had already bin said, smoke even made a blog post about the same subject last year on the bsg  blog.

And as anyone who's gone mountain climbing knows ,The serene snow-covered peaks that look so tranquil from a bdistance, Are the deadliest
sound is my vision
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2020-11-02 23:08:44

I agree with 31. I also think many of the devs ship games that are not ready for production. I played BloodStorm for a while, and I kept thinking this game feels like an Alpha instead of a release Version.

Personally, I would like to see a game that was more of a finished product. I think most of these guys just throw something together and release it.

2020-11-02 23:56:25

@5
I'm going to go out on a limb, and haven't considered how hard some of them ideas are to code?

1. You manage to code yourself that you can reinforce. That's great, but how do you code the hole in the wall? How wide is? How does audio acclusion work when you walk past the hole? Does the hole stay there, until your game dies? Or does the house repop / automatically regenerate itself? What's the point of the password-protected door if I can just RPG a hole in the wall?

2. Why drones? Why not go the shops yourself, lazy bugger?

3. How would you make that sound effective? As you pointed out, the pool of available sounds is somehwat finite. How would you know how far you've been thrown / have thrown?

4. You talking about automatic defenses? With number 3, why not just have the game that plays itself? Hell, go read a book if you want that kind of predetermined story line.

I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm just saying they're beyond the abilities of most programmers on here, and I wholeheartedly include myself in that. Can you code? Could you create any of this stuff? Because we'd all love it if you could.

@6
Same to you. Please excuse me if I'm speaking out of turn, because I don't remember anyone's names, but how many games have you released recently? How many with crazy new ideas we've not seen before?

@7
And how many people have worked on these googleable games? Because most people on here are flying solo, and by the seat of their pants to boot.

Again, not saying you're wrong, but seriously... My face is turning blue with writing this again and again. Where's your smash hit that you've dazzled this community of ungrateful gits with?

@8
You raise some good points. I feel the need to point out though, that fantacy (imagination) is all well and good, but if you can't code the mechanics required to make that stuff come to life, you're pissing in the wind, as we brits like to say.

@13
I hear what you're saying about the difference between audio games and mainstream ones. I feel like our lack of innovation is down to a lack of real teamwork. I mean sitting down and hashing out ideas over coffee and pizza teamwork, not just playing soggy biscuit over teamtalk or whatever the cool kids are doing these days.

And of course there is the lack of coding expertees, and again, I include myself in that. I'm an average coder at best, and yet I'm probably still in the best 25 per cent of programmers on this forum, which isn't to say that I'm great, it's just to say that there are a lot of new programmers around here, and yes, as has been pointed out at infinitum, many of them are young.

The people who are crazy good are all working for a living, and all the new ones (who are the ones with the time and enthusiasm) are making games which mostly get bitched about. The ones like me in the middle aren't good enough to create the next Synthizer or blind-Unity, but don't want to use BGT either, so we spend our time writing support libraries which don't get used, because in programmer's ally, there's this dealer called BGT handing out cheap drugs that leave you with nasty itchy bits, but make you feel good until you either break out of it and join 1 of the other afore-mentioned camps, or you realise you don't have a clue how to code without it and give up, to start learning to bake cookies or something.

@17
Physics. 3d maps for people who struggle with 2d... How would you render a trench in pure audio? I'm not being sarcastic, if you've got a way to make this work, I'd love to hear about it, because your ideas sound awesome.

@20
Haha, Paul, I love you man!!

@24
All valid points... But if you don't enjoy them, don't play them?

I don't like the look of most of the games that get announced in the new releases room. I haven't played MUDs in ages, and I'm not interested in pissing about to make mainstream games work, and I hate using a phone for anything except reading, and ignoring it when it rings (seriously, the sense of power).

I'm not going to come on and go on about how another sodding MUD or whatever, because why would I? Surely everyone's like that? You don't walk down the isle in a supermarket and complain about every product on every shelf that you don't like the look of. And seriously, isn't all chocolate just chocolate when you get right down to it? smile

@27
Given that most devs are using Python for making their games, I'm actually not sure if Pygame or Pyglet support force feedback. That could be why.

FWIW though, it's the reason I made it so easy to interface with game controllers when using Earwax. But given that library has a user base of 1, it's probably wasted effort haha.

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2020-11-03 00:05:58

I think some devs should do there research before making a game like this, not only on weapons, but like how to make a good map, and by that i mean, alot of the time, there just thees big ass maps like 3000 tiles, wich makes it hard to like kill, for example, you just got killed by this won person, you spawn, he's 1200 tiles away, sure you may have a sniper, but i dout any dev will have a gun that reaches 1200 tiles, anyways, now you would half to walk all the way over there, at the chants at beeing killed, now it isn't a problem, sense   you don't no what's coming, are you going to be sniped shot what ever, is part of an fps, but just saying, make the maps smaller, second of all, cover, now, i think there has to be some sort of cover systom hear, all thees maps, just are flat, with mabey a mountain, or stuf like that, they should add dryed up river beds bolders stuf like that to have some sort of cover, wow you reload or heal  or hide, and this is also something, i would like, some sort of stlef mode, like in the vale wen you sneek past the soldiers. and i no i'm sounding like a gi who sounds like i'm just saying what i want, but i really don't no any other way to put it,  just saying,  thees devs need to think a little bit mor, not just killing, getting new weapons, to kill kill kill, teams are fine, but stuf like that.

Bach is an astronomer, discovering the most marvelous stars. Beethoven challenges the universe. I only try to express the soul and the heart of man."
― Frederic Chopin.

2020-11-03 00:08:52

oh also at 38, i'm 11 lol so i don't really no how to coad so no i havent released any games.

Bach is an astronomer, discovering the most marvelous stars. Beethoven challenges the universe. I only try to express the soul and the heart of man."
― Frederic Chopin.

2020-11-03 00:11:23

Oh, i also want to add that every game that is released, it's never going to be perfect, it's not gonna have what everyone wants. there's all wase going to be someone who hates it, or wants this added.

Bach is an astronomer, discovering the most marvelous stars. Beethoven challenges the universe. I only try to express the soul and the heart of man."
― Frederic Chopin.

2020-11-03 01:47:26

40 did something good there, a mecanik that can be seen by... hmmm, putting on the mask and going in the river on tk. yes i named it, that's the only example of cover i could find.
the maximum hide and snipe thing i could find in an audio game was going in the river on tk, then just use guided missiles along with jumping up, sniping, then going back down in the water. would be interesting having that kind of stuf, a map that isn't actually a huge plateau of cupes cause that's what bgt sees tiles as.
would be nice to have hills that aren't straight vertical, trees that aren't just a pile of tiles thrown there. would be cool to have the possibility of moving your aim up and down, with a button to center your aim back to z 0. i know what i'm saying is highly advanced coding knowlegge that even i don't have.
and i know that i'm basically doing the same thing as we all do, giving an idea that probably nobody would take.
to make stuf accessible for aiming and removing the freakin traking sistem wich, sorry if i'm saying it is very annoying, we could make it that when we have somebody infront of us or in a range of 190 degrees infront of us, with no walls between us, the thing might play a beep in the stereo field, indicating the direction of the guy. for aiming up and down, the beep can increase and decresase in pitgh. to say, i'm trying to snipe people from a tree? i'm going to point downwards and the beep could have a tone that indicates the z axis is right and we have to aim left and right. anybody couls make it so that aiming wich certain weapons like snipers is slower, while holding a pistol or assault rifle makes you turn faster.
would give more realism in a game, cause ya know, a freakin sniper is quite big and heavy.
an other interesting thing to see? bullets bouncing. i know this isn't the right term but i don't know how to translate it, anywhay, a bullet hits a wall, and bounches in a rambdom direction if a wall was made of idk, metal? cement? while it would stop against a sand bag, leaes, branch...
those are some ideas i got, that if anybody here willing to code an fps would take, well, would get the game to a whole new level.
we could have an indicator for when we're walking on a slope or hill, to say medium inclination, small, or high...
thanks for reading, and i do really hope somebody here could pik those ideas up and turn his game in to a next generation a g fps

2020-11-03 02:00:44

Yeah but like, the river with tk isn't like fast to take cover if you get that, you would half to put on the mask dive down, by dryed up river beds i mean just dive in, fall 3 4  tiles reload like i said.

Bach is an astronomer, discovering the most marvelous stars. Beethoven challenges the universe. I only try to express the soul and the heart of man."
― Frederic Chopin.

2020-11-03 03:35:30

@9 amazing! amazing! amazing!

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2020-11-03 10:54:49 (edited by Honk 2020-11-03 10:58:29)

@Topic in general:

I might call the following rant "The almost lost cause - Or the search for fun in audio games".

What I found in almost all  requests for game features is that people don't seem to understand what a game feature is supposed to do.

A game is like a well balanced cocktail. You first have to have a vision how it should taste. Then you add the ingredients to achieve this vision. They could be the freshest juice, the oldest whiskey and the ripest fruits - if all you wanted to make is a Bloody Mary you've done it wrong.

Always ask the questions:
- why would I add this?
- Will this be fun?
- Will this fit?
- Will the fun it might provide add to or distract from the vision I have?
What I mean by this is: Know your game first, then try to add stuff according to your vision. Don't water it down with randomly poured liquors - all probably tasty on their own - add just the right amount of carefully picked ingredients to really hone the taste profile.

A well established development practice actually does it almost the other way around as I see in most feature requests on this forum. They actually don't even think of a feature first. They first search for the fun and then try to emulate it with a specifically tailored feature.
Super Mario 64 started with just Marios move set. They didn't have a single level design in mind. They first tried to make just his movement fun.
The developers of the new Doom Games wanted to discourrage careful and slow play and wanted to make combat more erratic and action packed. So they invented the Glory Kill mechanic where you have to confront the demons and engage in melee combat to gain goodies. If you play cowardly you quickly run out of health and ammunition.
The list goes on and on. I really recommend the YouTube channel Game Makers Toolkit for anyone actually interested in game development.

There is nothing wrong in adding realism or more sophisticated maps into an FPS. It can make combat more complex and strategically engaging.
But this is again putting the cart before the horse. Try this one out instead: I want to have a more complex and strategically engaging combat. How can I achieve that?
With a single change in perspective you all of a sudden have a much broader scope of solutions. What if instead you make the game physics super unrealistic, maybe extreme weapon recoil, maybe super fast or super slow movement, maybe randomly appearing cover.
Or what if you make the maps super small and simplistic? You'd have an extremely quick paced game about aiming precision and reflexes.
And the best thing about this is: No one could ever call those games clone because they aren't! Even if they have 100% of sounds and even weapon loadout of any other FPS on the market.

Tldr:
Mechanics should always serve the game, never the other way around.

2020-11-03 15:15:21

Completely agreed Honk.

2020-11-03 15:29:48 (edited by hadi.gsf 2020-11-03 15:31:02)

Well,  first of all, a little bit of  maturity perhaps.
Second of all, Some creativity. You don't have to be an elite programmer to create fun games. look at the games aprone made, some of them are simple but extremely fun to play.
What assault freak said however is also should be taken to account, Perhaps it is hard to younger generation of blind developers to have a perception of game mechanics, just simply because they have not experienced it but this  is just a difficulty that they have to work out. You can research, talk to other developers, listen to streams, listen to youtube gamers, read news, read articles, browse reddit,  google about the things you don't know, gather inquiries.... Are you going to tell me that these are all impossible by a blind person?
And finally yes. The creativity and variety of the recent released audio games has gone quite on a downhill. It's been  a few years that the concept of battle royale is out there but a visually impaired gamer has not experienced it yet so far, same with the recent mafia style game that among us has started the trend with.
IT is not wrong to go out and ask, IT's not wrong to research, It's not wrong to come up with new ideas  that are completely out of the ordinary.

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2020-11-03 17:26:55

I call it a tramp clone and I will continue. nor anything to reduce the extremely high ping they do. I will only call an FPS from here when it is made from scratch, and has deathmatch and capture the flag. the only ones that deserve my respect are RTR and undead

once upon a time, a beautiful little girl who wore a beautiful red hood.  while she was passing through a forest, she was killed by Captain America.  The end...

2020-11-03 17:39:26 (edited by grryfindore 2020-11-03 17:41:08)

Hi,
posts 1, 9, 38 +1. Enough said.
7, look up the number of people and budget those games had to work with, and what people forget whilst throwing up their suggestions is the time and effort required for everything. can the games created here expect even 5% of what these games you rave on about pull in.
a little leighway goes a long way, that is, even if say developer X comes to you with a FPS or Game Y, even if you think it's crap and you either shut up or give polite constructive feedback. you never know that developer down the line might come up with something that might be slightly more interesting and or fun, or even something amazing that blows your mind.
Think about this the next time you want to put that guy down who just created a game which you are hating on.
  I don't even want to start with how stifling this sound thing and rampent copyright fobia is  for creativity or all out having fun on the forum these days.
Grryf

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2020-11-03 17:41:53

Also, hows about we put the same level of effort into prasing people as we do bashing them?

Seems if someone likes a game there's a little post reply from a few saying @Good work@, @that's fun@, @I might play that twice@. If something's even remotely bad, there's reams about how awful stuff is. Surely more carrot, less stick?

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