2024-01-15 05:19:26

Sorry if this comes across as blunt. I promise I'm not angry; I'm just a little tired right now and can't think of a better way to articulate this.

There's a good many of us who speak more than one language on the forum, and I feel it's a little unfair to have a rule against speaking languages other than English just because the staff only speak English. I think it would be good to allow others to speak in their native or secondary language if that's what they feel comfortable doing. After all, we have many AI-based translators nowadays that do a fantastic job of not just getting the message across, but making it sound almost if not perfectly understandable.

One has to consider the fact that many people who aren't native English speakers use translators that don't do a very good job of providing an understandable translation. It would be great if I could just put their native language through as many different translators as I would like so that I'd have a better chance of understanding them.

Now for those who want to learn English, yes, it makes perfect sense. But there are people who'd rather use their own preferred language to talk. If they don't want to speak English, why should they have to? I'm a native English speaker myself, but in case I haven't made it clear here, I'd eventually like to transition away from using it as my primary form of communication. If I continue using English on this forum, I want it to be because I WANT to, not because I HAVE to.

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2024-01-15 05:31:59

Because it's not fair to expect users to go through the effort of manually translating people's posts, and that's doubly true when it comes to the moderators. It's not like this rule is unique to this place either. Given that the majority of us speak English as a first language, and I'd wager the majority of us are also monolingual too, it makes sense to continue doing things the way we always have done. It's not like there are any shortage of online communities where you can speak Japanese with likeminded people attempting to learn.

2024-01-15 06:11:57

IM not the main focus of this topic, but I will say that there aren’t a lot of comunities for blind gamers who also speak Japanese. That's a pretty small niche. But I’d be willing to bet you a fiver a majority of people on this forum are, in fact, bilingual or monolingual non-English speakers.

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2024-01-15 06:23:12

There is a pretty good reason english is the only language. It would be a hellish nightmare to moderate, every language would probably need a moderator, and no translating wouldn't work. I can get 50 ways I can make the translator misstranslate the word I really ment in arabic, who knows about other languages.

2024-01-15 06:51:21

It would be great if I could just put their native language through as many different translators as I would like so that I'd have a better chance of understanding them.

Maybe for you. I am not interested in translating peoples' messages at all and I would guess there are a lot of people who feel the same. Better they just translate their messages themselves. Perhaps you could start a poll for this.

2024-01-15 07:05:58

I think I’m the only one who’d vote for this though.

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2024-01-15 07:28:19

If you think you are the only one who would vote for it and you don't believe you are able to sway any opinions to your side, there probably isn't a point.

2024-01-15 07:30:26

Truth is, this topic was partly inspired by another sort of related topic several headings down from this one where people started speaking Sweedish. It's also partly inspired by the fact that there aren’t really any other accessible gaming communities where English is the primary language, much less forums where it isn’t. I think there’s a Spanish comunity and maybe an Arabic community, and no more to my knowledge. It doesn’t help matters that absolutely anyone who makes a new forum of any kind has their proverbial head torn off nowadays. Sometimes it makes sense, like when a kid starts a forum for kicks, but what’s gonna happen when someone who’s older with a vested interest in both Japanese and gaming comes along and tries to make a forum based around that? Cough cough.

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2024-01-15 07:33:34

If you can get us good mods that can communicate in both English and that other language, and you can find some way to separate the forum into different languages so that people can post what they like without spamming others with stuff they can't properly comprehend without often times inadequate auto translations, then sure, why the hell not right?
But until then, this just isn't really a good idea, frankly, even if it could be nice sometimes.

2024-01-15 07:36:18

Yeah, this is primarily a moderation issue. You see, at least for me, and probably the other moderators as well, we parse posts that may need parsed word by word and take into account context. If you speak the language, this is pretty easy. You generally understand most contexts and significance of each word. If you don't speak the language, it's a lot easier to miss things, or to misconstrue something culturally/linguistically. The results could be quite bad.

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2024-01-15 08:52:23

I have to agree. It's a nice idea in theory, but not so much in practice at this time.

2024-01-15 09:16:12

1. You smart guy I have a question for you. I speak Kurdish. And it has been added last year or two years ago I think to Google Translate. And do you know when a language is being added the first five or ten years it's like shit you can't translate anything from it. Then how you would understand me?

2024-01-15 09:17:44

OK I'm going to make it easier I do fairly speak Arabic. And you can say. Write your message and we're gonna translate it because Google supports Arabic. But my Arabic is half broken then how are you going to translate the broken message to English you smart guy?

2024-01-15 15:04:22

I disagree with this proposal because it would make it incredibly difficult to moderate on the admin/mod side. Not to mention the fact that allowing people to speak any language can cause conflict on it's own, and this forum handles enough of that as is. How does somebody who doesn't speak the language your communicating in know that you aren't insulting them, generally being an ass, etc.? You might say "well couldn't they just translate it?" but: (1) that requires that a good machine translation system be available already; and (2) I'm pretty sure there are some things in every language that do not translate well, if at all, to others, because the words/context/cultural-isms aren't available. This would be nice if it was possible, but the forum would pretty much need a complete remake for that to work, including automatic language detection in every post and automatic post translation to the users language. Most likely you'd also want separate forums/categories for different languages too, and mods for each language. Given how much the mod team struggles right now (and I don't mean for that to be construed as an insult, it's just a fact), I significantly doubt it would be wise to try anything like this now.

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2024-01-15 15:27:49

I'm the first type of person that would appreciate something like this. I am multilingual, but as others have already stated, this is just not practical. Although, I think the forum could be a bit more lenient when it comes to posting content in a different language. I don't mean the posts themselves, but links to resources that might be in other languages. I noticed quite a few Chinese games being linked lately. But a while back, in the Spanish community, there were some blind guides that were written by someone. And they were willing to share on the AG Forum, but they were seemingly discouraged to do so because of some rule regarding non-english content. And these were text guides, stored in DropBox. In that case, I'm sure if someone wanted to use them, they could grab the guides for themselves and translate it locally.
I think those guides have been shared since then in some topic already, but I just hope we're not discouraging really useful non-English content from being shared.

2024-01-16 02:39:20

I adhere to @13 and @14 considerations.
While I am my self a native Spanish speakers who understands and can write somewhat in English as a second language, I think your proposal is not a good idea; not at least if there are sub-forums for each language such as the Audacity official forums.
Allowing anyone to post in his/her native language would considerably difficult the knowledge, opinion and material travels that this forum, despite its many issues, allows between so many users of different cultures that share the common interests in audio games.
This is not only due to moderation being harder in that case, but especially because automatic translation, despite how much it has evolved in the last years, still has bottlenecks, especially between languages of different families. If you were a native speaker of some language other than English, you would understand in practice the fact that often machine translations are hard to understand because sometimes generate non-grammatical sentences or choose words that are not applicable at all in context.

Unfortunately, Microsoft in recent years is using machine translation to translating user interfaces of star products like Office and Windows, and especially the help/support content. Much more often than it should, I'm in need to switch the help page language back to English to understand a given topic because the automatic translation miss information, mix UI terms or even leaves examples unadapted based on descriptive information that the machine decided to translate.
A good help example of this machine translation tragedy are topics about Excel functions, or the ones that explain how to do certain things with a screen reader, where often hotkeys that are translated in the product leave untranslated in these help topics.
A couple of UI examples will make you an idea of the difficulties automatic translation could present in the forum.

  • In certain Windows 10 release I don't exactly remember which one, Microsoft added a setting to specify how many open Microsoft Edge tabs to show when using ALT+TAB in addition to traditional windows. In the Spanish version, options said things like "5 pestañas y abrir las ventanas", "Abrir ventanas y 3 pestañas", etc. Although I remembered to read about this new feature when they announced it in a blog post about an Insider Preview build, at first the setting in Spanish is not understandable, because without reading that blog post, for a casual user the translation gives the idea of showing something to open windows as an action. It happened because English, unlike Spanish, sometimes uses the word "open" both as an action ("I want to open the window") and as a participle ("The window is open"), and the machine chose to use for "open" the Spanish word "abrir" which is "open" as an action, rater than "abiertas" that is the plural participle that was correct in this context.

  • In Office 2007, Microsoft added a context menu to the status bar of programs like Word and Excel, which allows to select which items we want the status bar to have. One of these is "View shortcuts". In Spanish it was translated as "Ver accesos directos", which is "view" as an action ("accesos directos" is the Microsoft translation for "shortcuts"). As a result, I thought this option enabled or disabled the possibility of clicking the items for opening dialogs such as Find and Word Count. But it actually adds and removes the buttons for changing the document view, such as Print Layout or Draft, in which the word "view" is a noun. Therefore, it should have been translated as "Accesos directos a vistas", where "vistas" is "view" as a plural noun.

  • In my Nokia E5 which had Latin American Spanish, the Maps application had a setting that said "Posición inicial" (literally "Starting position" or "Initial position") and was required to use the feature for quickly traveling to our house. However, this didn't actually asked the starting position, but the position of our house itself. My confusion was because they translated as "Posición inicial" the original "Home position". While "home" is a valid English word to denote a reference or starting point for something, it also refers to a house, like it was in this case, so this should have been translated as "Posición del hogar", "Posición de casa" or in any way in which the equivalent used for the word "home" could be interpreted as a place in which someone lives.

  • In Nero Wave Editor, which is the program of the Nero suite used for audio editing, there was an item named "Edit History" in the Edit menu. In Spanish it reads "Editar historial", in which "edit" is interpreted as an action. Since I didn't know the English version at the time, at first I think the screen for editing the history was not accessible. Actually, there was no history to edit, because in this case "edit" is a noun and this should have been translated, as the help makes clear, as "Historial de ediciones", in which "ediciones" is a plural for "edit" as a noun referred to the various changes the user made on the opened audio file.

If these things happen for popular products in which it is expected that at least a human to review the automatic translations for post-editing if necessary, you can give yourself an idea of how this might difficult moderation and understanding in case of conflict in this forum, where posts do not follow relatively rigid patterns like technical materials largely do. But think on the following cases of non-IT words, in which you can verify the phenomenon through Word Reference dictionaries, which include use examples:

  • The English word "cock" as a big variety of meanings, ranging from the male genital organ to various tools for fixing things.[/*

  • The Spanish verb "coger" means "to take" in Spain with the sense of grabbing things, but in Latin America is instead used only referred to the sexual intercourse act.

As @14 well said, these cultural and context linguistic hints are not available to machines in the current state-of-the-art. Therefore, for solving human conflicts that sometimes take place in this forum, in case we allow everyone to express in whatever language he or she wants, we would still need to have at least basic notions of the source language which we are asking the machine to translate from.

Also, back into a more technical aspect, how stable the Unicode support of this forum is? I think it is probably outdated, since once I wanted to use an emoji character (the ones that are currently in the Unicode standard, not the old emoticons based on combining certain letters) and the forum gave a strange error whose fixing required I to remove the emoji before sending the post. While it is not a problem for languages such as most of Western European ones, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Turkish, Vietnamese, Icelandic, Greek and the ones with Cyrillic script, many languages are only supported in Unicode (these don't have specific extended-ASCII character sets), so if we want to support posting in multiple languages the Unicode compliance should be accurate.
And even with a stable Unicode support, many screen readers can't speak at all in different scripts (for example a Cyrillic-based language with a Latin script TTS).

Sorry for my bad English. I'm from Argentina and my level speaking this language is low.

2024-01-16 08:23:46

If this was allowed, I'd probably skip over all the non-English posts as being more trouble than it's worth... and if this forum has the ability to autohide all posts from a given user, someone consistantly posting in a language I don't understand might actually be annoying enough for me to figure out how to use such a function even though I've never used such a function in 20+ years of browsing internet forums.

Sure, it sucks when one can't find a forum dedicated to a subject they want to talk about in a language they understand(which isn't easy even in English with how everything these days is a Facebook Group or Discord Forum and how preferring forums to modern social media makes one the internet equivalent of the old man yelling at kids to "get off my lawn".), but enforcing a lingua franca on a forum like this is just kind of common sense, especially since it's likely the numbers drop off very quickly for how many people are native speakers of each language... heck, I didn't even know Kurds had a distinct language prior to reading this thread and wouldn't be surprised if there is only a single digit number of native speakers of Kurdish, assuming the above poster isn't the only one.

Though, I do suspect most of the non-native English speakers on this forum are bilingual... After all, my understanding is that bilingualism is actually the norm globally speaking, and I get the impression American English monoglots have the highest proportion of people who are proud of their linguistic shortcomings, though that might be skewed perspective since if there are any non-English monoglots boasting about their monoglot status and insisting people should learn their language, I can't understand them... and some of my fellow Americans who are proud of being English monoglots and think everyone should just learn English are obnoxious to the point I think I'd be ashamed of my English monoglot standing even if it didn't feel like a bigger disability than my blindness.

2024-01-16 11:45:29

I think that in some ways the rule that we can't speak a certain language on this forum is a thing but also not.
It's ok and acceptable to write to your kinsman or to those who you know will understand what you write in that language to do so, and I think a good human being will not or shouldn't stop you, so long as you direct the person with an at sign.
A very good example is when I was talking to Remi in Swedish because I knew he had an understanding of the language, and I know he loves it! Yeah he actually doesn't.
Some people who are hard language people learn how to pick apart a language by hard context, especially if they could use it to make the translater give them the exact output they want.
Funny thing is with a language like Swedish people don't think about it, but it's actually very cloce to English rule, and I mean very dam cloce.
Just one of the words called inte which means not is appended to some words like can followed by inte, and that gives you can not or can't.
But seeing as I use the actual English rule and the fact that I use more than just standard English, I translate inte as aint, as in the word that people from Texas use for am not, is not and are not.
And you know the funny thing? If you write that into a translator it actually works!
Yes it's buggy and problematic, but that's all languages and if the mods and so on want to actually understand things down to the bugs the language has they would have to read up on a lot of English for the ones that are cloce to English and so on, and that's just not easy when they have a big community to help in English alone.
I really love my Japanese people near and far, but your language is too dam wordy although I do love studying it from time to time.
From my name you can tell I'm Spanish and yes I am, but although I love the Spanish people I hate the language and a lot of latin Concatenative languages, especially if they have like 50 forms of the word me or I in the tences.
You telling me that you'll have like 50 words for just the word go and your version of short hand is just scrapping the pronoun and calling it a day? Get the fuck outta here!
Keep in mind that I don't intend to point the stone to anyone all languages have there bugs, just like how I'm still trying to find a programming language that is going to work with my twisted way of processing how raw translation is done.

English is prefered because it's global, it doesn't depend on an entire bunch of consistency to work, it's updatable more than people actually think as in almost every day, and in this regard the huge amount of words helps other people from other country's find a word that they could use to get the message across.

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2024-01-16 11:50:37

Speaking for myself, my monolingual status mostly comes down to my persistent inability to learn other languages. I've tried before, but my brain has a difficult time understanding the different grammatical rules and things like that. This may partly come down to French being forced on me as a young child, which I hated, and me being too old by the time I tried to get the hang of languages that genuinely interested me since I've heard these things become much harder when our brains are further developed, or it may just be me. Either way I doubt I'm the only one who has this problem.

For what it's worth, it may be quite trivial to hack together a GPT-4 autotranslater since I've heard that GPT-4 is vastly superior to Google translate these days, but this would of course cost money to operate, and the cost would go up with the length of each post, so it probably wouldn't be practical in the longrun even if it worked.

2024-01-16 12:19:34

17. I might be the only kurd here. I'm 95% sure

2024-01-16 13:22:57

@20, There used to be a Kurd from Turkey here back in the day, don't know what happened to him. If I remember right he even had PKK in his name.

2024-01-16 14:33:57

I know Turkish, English and Russian, I have a German which I can call a1 or a2 level, and I know Azerbaijani, too, so I can be considered as a poliglot.
In my opinion, allowing languages other than English to be spoken in this forum would require creation of seperate sub forums and this could cause the moderation team a great loss of time, so even if I wanted this idea to be implemented, I'm sure that it's nearly impossible right now.

2024-01-16 17:31:25 (edited by aziz1media 2024-01-16 17:32:15)

21. Ohh OK. I myself live in iraq

2024-01-16 22:37:27

While it sounds like a good idea, it just wouldn't work.
The mod team is not very large, and it's already a lot for them to manage the forum in its current state.
Not only that, they'd probably have to get a lot more mods that spoke the different languages that they wanted to make communities for, and a lot of people probably wouldn't want to make such a commitment.
The next issue you'd run into is making sure that everyone is in communication in terms of the rules so you don't have one or more groups deciding to due their own thing and allow pyracy or unethical behaviors.

2024-01-16 23:14:56

English is a world language for a reason. It's more inconvenient to drop the rule both for English Speakers and Non-English speakers than it is to force English.
@20, I know of one other Kurdish person on this forum but he's not really that active.

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