2020-08-19 15:30:51

@ironcross32, american politics with two parties is has always seemed crazy to me, and frankly after spending time in the states, it seems all the crazier for exactly the reason you have just given, namely that things over there are so polarised you are either a democrat or! a republican! and nothing else, irrespective of what the two parties actually argue, or who is put up as a candidate, or whether you  actually like the candidate your party puts up, because there are only two sides, and it's more important to support your side than anything else, and obviously what the other side do and think is always wrong!

Btw, there's a great book my lady and I read together recently concerning Donald trump, the immoral majority bye Ben Hoe.
This is a book written by a republican right wing christian (and one who is equally not fond of the democrats), but who details some of the down right scary versions of double think used to get trump into power and the ways the party has acted

Obviously, we did not agree with Hoe on everything, but being written from the perspective it's written from, and given the extremely partisan nature of American politics, it was a really fascinating, and indeed frightening read.

As to the above mentioned "criticism" argument however, it's not so much that I would argue anyone who did not vote cannot criticise their government, or would criticise anyone myself, it's just that I! personally feel better having actually done! something and made a statement via the democratic process, rather than having done nothing.

For example, last election I asked my dad to write on the ballot "I don't trust any of you."

Did it make a difference? I don't know, but I don't think voting for any of the major parties would've done anyway, however I can legitimately say that yes, I did! actually say something.

Again, this is just based on how I feel about the generally crappy situation that is British politics, and society at large.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-08-19 17:10:24

I can't see myself ever ceasing to vote if I can help it. My opinion is: If you can't be arssed to go and cast a vote during an election, you have no right to criticize those in power. I mean, if you live in a democracy, the right to say whatever you want is given to you by default, but if I know you haven't voted, I'm probably not going to take you very seriously.
To those who put forward the argument that "my vote doesn't matter because I'm just one among millions." Please stop. If everyone thinks that way, democracy won't function. I'm not saying that it works particularly well at the moment, but it's better than living under a sadistic despot whose had his mind warped by a pampered upbringing and understands nothing of the world. Call me naive, but partisan politics sounds kind of stupid anyway. As a member of a certain party, you always have to stay within the party line and never cross it. I'd say this got out of control in the US. There, if you vote democrat you're a tree hugging godless vegan hippy liberal communist, and if you happen to vote republican, you're a racist sexist homophobic meat eating conservative capitalist.

I used to be a knee like you, then I took an adventurer in the arrow.

2020-08-19 17:51:52

Conor wrote:

but it's better than living under a sadistic despot whose had his mind warped by a pampered upbringing and understands nothing of the world.

, since of course, people like that can never be elected in a democratic system (see my previous coughing fit).

I'm afraid I disagree with you on party lines there Conor, simply because parties radically change.
Case in point, you'd think as a marxist, I'd be supporting the labour party here in the UK, accept that under Tony blaire, nationalisation and hiving off governmental services to businesses became order of the day, and these days, well goodness knows!

Indeed pretty much none of the british parties are left wing anymore, just varying flavours of right wing, pro big business, with more or less national bombast or environmentalism throne in.

I will say though, for America your unfortunately right on partisan politics, things are so polarised it's not funny.
However, what disturbed me when I was there, and indeed when my lady talks to her family, is the amount of genuinely  decent, reasonable, intelligent, otherwise perfectly nice people, who simply are! republican because it's what they are, end of story, and would not even hear an alternative viewpoint, or consider modifying their position on any issue at all, indeed I always felt I had to be careful around my parents in law so that they didn't realise their daughter was marrying a no good libreral hippy comy! Indeed, thanks to corona virus, I've now revived my pony tale, so I'm even a long haired liberal hippy comyy!

Well I like piece, and lord of the rings, and have indulged in interesting weeds in the past :d.

In terms of participating in democracy, I'm afraid I'm no longer sure that what we have is too much different from a dictatorship anyway, then again I've just about given up on power relations in the human disgrace changing any time soon, because people are stupid.

it's one of the few advantages of not being part of society, I can sit on the outside and don't have to worry.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-08-19 18:00:46 (edited by Pineapple Pizza 2020-08-19 18:03:43)

I don’t think the Democratic Party in the United States is very left wing either. People just think it is. So the American political spectrum is much more narrow than one would be led to believe. And so I Honestly wonder if people even know what sort of ideologies are on the left here, and what those ideologies actually stand for. Because the left is not the Democratic Party at least in my opinion.

I would rather listen to someone who can actually play the harmonica than someone who somehow managed to lose seven of them. Me, 2019.

2020-08-19 18:14:48

@An idiot, I can't say I've made a big study of the democratic party, but what I have seen suggests as much, indeed I am always rather confused why the left/right wing description these days is used to colour so many issues that have absolutely nothing to do with the means of production.

Interestingly enough, there used to be a site called the political index, with left/right wing across the bottom, Ie, whether a person believed in free market capitalism and centralised government, and authoritarian/libertarian up the side, IE, how much a person believed in government regulation of lifestyle, religion, beliefs etc.

So someone like Carl Marx would be a left wing libertarian, whilst someone like stalen would be a left wing authoritarian, whilst as a contrast, Ayne rand would be a right wing libertarian, Hitler, a right wing authoritarian.

Interestingly enough, I ended up about on the left wing libertarian end, actually I wound up on the same index as Mohatma Gandi which was nice big_smile.

Even with this index though, there are still lots of things supposedly associated with the left/right distinction (particularly in the states), which actually have nothing to do with it at all, such as beliefs about race gender and sexuality or issues like a person's religious beliefs.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-08-19 18:56:26

Can confirm: Trump is pretty far right. Biden and co. are...sort of a bit left of center.
I'm not just a democrat. I'm a leftist. And if I had any power to take Trump down, I'd do it. The guy's trying to say now that his first term doesn't count for some reason and is trying to rally around getting an unheard-of third term. Getting the cart ahead of the horse a bit. I dunno. When he got elected I was pretty upset but thought "okay, maybe he'll do something worthwhile". But nope.

Canada has more than two parties, but it's a first-past-the-post system. It's broken. We need electoral reform because right now everyone is generally convinced that we need either a liberal or a conservative government, when historically both keep paddling around in the same mess and driving the country further into debt and generally making life miserable except for corporations and the rich.

To be clear, I don't hate Trump and the right because I'm a leftist. If someone from that political quadrant made a good point, I'd listen. It's just that it happens so, so rarely. Likewise, when people with whom I'm generally affiliated do stupid shit, I call them on it. There is a lot of blind following happening in American politics, and hell, even in Canadian politics, but I'm not a part of it.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-08-20 00:53:33

@dark, hmm, maybe I'll just ask someone to write I don't care for either one of you on the paper then, but is it worth going into a building knowing you don't care just to go home and not care even more? My grandad tels me that if I don't vote there's a £1000 fine but I don't know how true that is.


Oh well, when it comes around we'll see what happens.


America confuses me with it's polotix, I've heard on vorale when I made a post about american polotix that Americans don't only discuss it, and i know that to be true but the amount of polotix related stuff on there... Oh and people can really get into it actually shouting maches and all that, it's crazy.


Then again vorail is all blind people so there isn't much divercity, i'm leaving vorale next year because as much as I like scrolling through it, when I'm bored, it's just not for me anymore. Plus the dev is breaking some sirious EU and US laws with that app, you can't actuallly delete your data from that app, not even your account and as far as I understand it, EU law states that's no longer aloud and I'd not be surprised if the US says the same thing.

I'm gone for real :)

2020-08-20 01:01:14

So it turns out you don't actually have to vote, I just looked it up: https://www.bromley.gov.uk/info/200033/ … /5awesome! If I don't feel iether side is going to achieve the things I would like them to; I don't have to worry about fines.

I'm gone for real :)

2020-08-20 05:36:49 (edited by Dark 2020-08-20 05:37:34)

@Brad, nope, you don't have to vote, but neither do you have to go to the ballot building. I have got my dad listed as a signatory for my postal vote, which is how I've submitted my votes for the last few ellections. Also, I'm not exactly sure where your granddad is coming from on this business of a fine, since nope, as the link says, there is nothing of the sort, and I've not heard there ever was one either.


In terms of America, it's not just the internet. When I was over there, it seems there are only two states for discussing politics, either profound, almost frighteningly borg like agreement, or  insult hurling disagreement.

For example, my in laws asked me if it was true that there were parts of Britain where the police were afraid to go because of radical islam. I told them that no there weren't, there are dodgy parts of cities due to crime and so on, as with most big cities in many parts of the world (america very much included), but Islam had nothing to do with this, and indeed most muslims I'd met, (including my parents very nice next door neighbours), were perfectly reasonable people, and no more or less likely to break the law than anyone else.

yet, my father in law still said "well I still think America is safer", completely disregarding what I'd previously said.,

it's something my lady gets very exasperated with her family about, while they in turn see her as having become "Europeanised", or being a "liberal," (a term they see as an insult), since she no longer believes whatever the republican party do is automatically always the best thing.

In fairness, whilst my in laws are fervently religious to a point that actively became a little uncomfortable with the public prayers etc (even for someone who was bought up an Anglican and who at one time heavily considered becoming a priest himself), they're also far from the loopy insane cardboard cutout religious wackos of popular fiction either, which is unfortunately one reason I find their total inability to even hear different opinions rather sad, not to mention slightly worrying, since on both sides of the divide they're not alone.

indeed one of my lady's favourite  phrases comes from Andrew Greely, the catholic novelist, who often spoke of the left wing cranks and the right wing crazies big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-08-20 08:20:01

I'd like to speak up for the non-voters:

I don't vote now, and can't see why I would ever start. Firstly, I have no idea about politics, and have no wish to learn. That said, I never complain about the political parties, in power or out. Like I say, I don't know anything about them, and I don't care.

I did however vote on the net neutrality stuff (possibly in error as I've since discovered), and I'll vote on things I do care about. Most people (presumably people who know enough about the working of a country to vote and argue with utter confidence and conviction), don't know what sort of internet they use every day. They don't care, so they don't do anything about it. Why shouldn't I have the same right about who's running the country I was born into?

Honestly, my only problem with "foreigners coming into this country" is that more of them haven't opened shops selling stuff from back home. I love foreign food! English fish and chips or Sunday roasts are comparatively boring.

In addition, the only news I read is technological, medical, scientific, or culinary in nature, to the point where I was actually a bit surprised when I found out who our Prime Minister was a few months ago.

I love the NHS too, not that I use it hardly ever. I love England, its seasons, its contradictions, it's people. It's doing a pretty good job of staying awesome without my help, so I'll let it pootle along. If it ever stops being the country I love, maybe I'll step in, and single-handedly change the course of the future by orating in the local pub.

I get a lot of flack for this: Some people who don't know me - and many who do - tell me everything from I'm stupid to not vote, I'm selfish for giving up my democratic right, and I'm ungrateful, because people have died in wars to give me the right to vote.

Also, while we're on the subject of freedom... Could someone remind me what that is please? Try making coughing jokes on a train these days. Try joking about the contents of your backpack in a crowded place. People say this stuff isn't funny, but isn't that the point of free speech? You get to say whatever you like, tasteful or otherwise. Other people get the right to disagree, as long as they're not violent, or unless you're a vegan, because who cares about those idiots?

One of the lads on the cricket team I play for calls us all "niggers" and "pakis". he tells me he's perfectly happy being a paki - he is from Pakistan after all - and thinks that it's a perfectly acceptable abbreviation, in the say way chocky is a perfectly acceptable abbreviation for "chocolate". If I tried that, reckon people would nod their heads in respect to me for exercising my right to free speech?

I made an anti welsh joke the other day, to a welsh friend. It latently occurred to both of us that it was technically racist. Neither of us minded. Free speech is conditional. Freedom is the same. Ask anyone who's ever been voluntarily sectioned.

In short, be as pissed as you like with people who don't vote, but please don't tell me you've never done something contradictory in your life. We humans are full of them.

We eat dead animals while defending our pets. We complain about beaches clogged with rubbish while eating from non-recyclable containers. We complain about people coming to our country who don't speak our language, then we go on holiday and use hand signals, or get pissed when we're not understood. The orgasm gap between men and women is staggering. We advertise drinking alcoholic drinks at every social occasion, yet frown on those who skin up a joint. Men say that gay people are disgusting, but love to watch lesbian porn. Women say they hate being objectified, but won't learn to play the guitar because they'll have to cut their nails and lose all that lovely soft skin the media tells them is so necessary to be fully appreciated in this social media dominated world. How many of us love going on holiday? How many of us want to live under a flight path?

-----
I have code on GitHub

2020-08-20 08:20:08

@dark, that is sad.


It isn't surprising though, considering that there are some americans out there who are shocked when going to other countries and finding out that they don't have the same laws as you. I'm talking about  people who think America is the world, those peple confuse me, I understand flights are expencive but is american TV really all about America, and that's it?


Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Americans, I just find their ways confusing sometimes.


I think the muslim comment comes from how... sensationalised? They are/were in certain parts of america.


As for your lady being "Europeanised", good, she'll be able to think for herself.


I have no idea where my grandad was getting that voting fine thing from, I'm not going to ask him though and will just waight for voting time.

I'm gone for real :)

2020-08-20 08:28:22

@chrisnorman7, yeah, I doubt i'll be voting in the future.


You bring up an interesting point about free speach, one mans curse word is another mans, meh, while i'd not going around calling black people nigger or anything like that, I think if it's amongst people you know and who won't beat the ever living crap out of you for it, why not?

Here's another one for ya, isn't it funny how offended people get on blind peoples behalf, and then when we telll them we don't need their help because of that thing, they get offended, it's like they want us to thank them for being the great saver of the blind or something, it's strange.


As for those who died in wars and all that for us to vote, I didn't ask them to go to war for me, so that's that argument done.

I'm gone for real :)

2020-08-20 08:47:22

One more post for now.


Oh silly Americans, how we laugh at you, even sane americans do too. Here is a youtube list of Karens and a guy reacting to them, if you don't know what a Karen is, you will soon; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dffovlOGjSU

I'm gone for real :)