2019-03-09 17:55:42

Of course there are bugs in UIA support, that's why it is in advanced settings and not on by default as it otherwise would be. Once everything is fixed it will be the default.

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2019-03-09 18:00:39 (edited by mahdi-abedi 2019-03-09 18:01:46)

hi
in iran, we can use jaws cracks and we can have it free, but I dont use jaws for its limited things
I think paying 1000 dollars for jaws, as post 1 sed, is crazy work, cause we have more screan readers and nvda have jaws sounds

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2019-03-10 06:28:23

@Dark (48), I didn't know they had vocalizer expressive voices with NVDA! I'm really considering buying the voices and give NVDA a try for a few weeks to satisfy my curiosity.

@enes (49), it was an Microsoft intern activity when I interned there.

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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2019-03-10 17:50:56

In a lot of situations, people really have no choice, when NVDA is seen as evil for being open source. I know things are evolving, but this is still a reality for a lot of companies, sadly.

2019-03-10 18:06:20

Hi,
Origine, I would love to know how one can intern at microsoft. I will be looking for work soon, and would be very interested to do so.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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2019-03-10 21:15:25

@Origine yes, vocaliser expressive does work as an NVdA addon, you get all the voices plus dialogue and language switching, though its only licensed for three machines, and part of the cost goes to maintaining NvdA.

My only miner issue is that the hardware specific license keys can be a pain, for example, I hadn't used my laptop for a while, then when I ran it, windows updated and I needed to reactivate  vocaliser license, but this is an issue with the way the nuance licenses work rather than with NvdA.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-10 22:53:02

@enes, I sent you a PM, I know not a lot of people go check their PMs, that's why I write it here, sorry for the spam guys. You don't have to notify me, I'll monitor my inbox in the next few days.

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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2019-03-10 23:15:53

@Dark, I tried to purchase a licence for vocalizer-nvda, but the paypal checkout didn't work, is it not available in Canada?

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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2019-03-11 01:32:14

Replied.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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2019-03-11 03:35:56

Hmmm, no ideas there, I paid with paypal here in England so I don't see why Cannida would be any different.

They are fairly good about contact though in my experience, when the license on my desktop broke due to a corrupt NvdA settings file I got a very quick response from tech support and the problem was sorted in short order, so again, while the hardware keys are an arse, at least the company seem relatively accessible.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-11 04:14:32

moderation:
Mahdi, consider this a warning. Your previous account was banned, after consecutive warnings, on counts of discussion regarding piracy. You were given a second chance on the belief that you wouldn't repeat the same mistakes. It's true your place of residence might have different laws on the issue. But might I remind you, we're not all living in your country of residence. This forum is strictly opposed to theft in all it's forms. While some locations do have a more laid back approach, I hardly think freedom scientific or VFO or whatever they call themselves these days is ok with you cracking their products. If they were you would be able to obtain a license in ways that don't include reverse engineering, disassembly, or otherwise. So here is where we currently stand. This is your third warning in the last couple weeks. Under the community failure clause, one more mistake/rule violation within a reasonable timeframe will, no questions asked, result in a ban. You've received more than your fair share of cautions in the last month and a half alone. Please be careful and watch your step for now on.

Personal recommendation, but I highly suggest you read over the rules very carefully. Make sure you understand every single one completely. If you have questions, the topic is their for clarification.

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2019-03-11 06:48:59

As for myself, I've always used JAWS and it's always worked for me. If I could no longer afford to keep my license current, I would have no choice but to switch to NVDA. Is that first time price of $1000 or so a bit expensive? Heck yes it is, and I don't know why that first time price is that high. That is at least worth six SMA's currently. If someone goes for a home annual license, that's a much better deal overall even though the price for two years is about $30 more than an SMA. I'm sticking with my SMA for that reason, and because throwing away an old license when I can afford to keep it current seems like a waste.

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2019-03-14 00:54:00

Well, VFO just came out with an update, that among other things, added virtual curser support to powerpoint. This can be useful, and shows how NVDA is falling behind in regards to office support. For a student, office is the app you literally use for most of your work.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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2019-03-14 02:36:59

It's okay, we get that you are not happy with NVDA, but you do not have to voice it in every post. This does not show that NVDA is falling behind, it shows that VFO came up with something actually innovative, which is not bad at all considering that first they didn't do something innovative for quite a while, and second it can bring something new to NVDA as well. Screen reader competition can be only a good thing, and who says browse mode wont be available just like virtual cursor at some point. When audio ducking was introduced in NVDA, Jaws introduced it shortly after. When command search was introduced in Jaws, NVDA provided something similar in it's input gestures dialog. So instead of complaining on the first day something new comes, just be patient for a while, perhaps request it as a feature with a good use case and somebody will definitely take it into consideration. There are numerous examples of screen readers basing features on one another, so I would not be surprised if it happens, however people will still complain, in that case that NVDA copies Jaws, because some users are never happy. By the way, latest NVDA should introduce performance improvements to Office, which should be released in about a month, so that shows how much Nv Access isn't listening to people and lacks good programmers.

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2019-03-14 02:43:10

Except NVDA are falling behind. Come on already, Office support should be one of the staples of any screen reader since its so widely used, this means fixing issues promptly when they come out. Also, why then, do they have over 2,000 open issues if they're staying on top of things. Time to wake up and smell the coffee, NVDA has some major issues, and their hacky work around UIA patch is just a bandaid over a much larger issue. No need to get all passive aggressive either, that kind of thing isn't warranted in a discourse that's meant to be civil.

I don't care if you pay the bills, if you can produce your deed or your lease,
If you have a cat, the cat owns your crib.
Sorry about that, I don't make the rules, the cats do.
For multi-cat residences, one cat owns the other cats, *and* your crib, dang, eh?

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2019-03-14 03:00:36

I find it amusing that, in a topic where the original poster is asking about the merits of JAWS, there are so many posts where people are professing the merits of NVDA. Seems a bit off topic?

I myself have always loved JAWS, and while I've started to use NVDA lately, it's neither through a desire to switch nor on any fault of JAWS itself. JAWS to me is straight forward in its operation, gives me a virtual mouse cursor with which I can review and interaction with the screen (and which I find works much better than NVDA's review options in many cases), allows me to quickly and easily script different behaviours when required (I find JScript much easier than having to learn Python), and of course has natively baked in support for many applications. The recent trend of adding slightly frivolous features is I think a result of JAWS dropping out of the professional market and into the home user arena, but even some of those frivolous features can sometimes be useful.

JAWS works a lot better in console applications than I believe NVDA does, as there have definitely been times I could not get NVDA to in any way read a console window (such as the command prompt). I also prefer to use JAWS in MUSHClient, since I grew up with GMUD, and so are used to playing MUD's with the JAWS cursor to review the screen, rather than having to control tab to a separate review window. But it's for reasons like this that I don't mind using both. As with a set of kitchen tools, there will be things you'd use a fork for, and there will be things you'd use a spoon for, and others you can use either (and in those cases, personal preference is the only thing to consider).

Kai

This site's drama(s) needs major popcorn!

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2019-03-14 04:54:04

Do you still need an add-on to do something as simple as use Dropbox with NVDA? I never did quite get that. Aside from that, if I'm testing something in a VM, NVDA is perfect. If I'm doing something actually productive, for example something I'm being paid to do, it's JAWS all the way. NVDA just isn't there yet. I have no doubt that one day it will be, though I'm curious if Narrator will beat it there, but it's not there yet. Until it is, what I have works--and if ever it doesn't, it's probably more Microsoft's fault than VFO.

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2019-03-14 07:26:13 (edited by Dark 2019-03-14 07:27:54)

I actually agree about virtual curser support, since that is oen feature of Supernova I miss in NVdA. While you can get a long way with object navigation keys in NvdA there are situations where they are less convenient, though this is one thing I've seen improve.
I will say though console window support in NVdA isn't something I've had issues with once i started to use object nav keys, indeed while the virtual curser in NVdA is not as sophisticated as Supernova's (or at least the way Supernova's used to work in Xp and windows 7), the reading of incoming text in NvdA is superior to Sueprnova's.

As to office support I can't speak for Xl since I never used the thing, but I never had issues with NVdA and MS word, which is a program I use on a daily basis.
Microsoft Outlook is mostly okay as well, though to be honest I've never liked outlook anyway, it just seems overly complex and cluttered and has done ever since the Xp days, which is why I used outlook express, and now Thunderbird.

I can't speak for Jaws here, and likely won't be able to until they actually charge a fair price.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

Thumbs up

2019-03-14 11:05:21

Slight OT, but I saw this and I simply could not resist.

mahdi-abedi wrote:

hi
in iran, we can use jaws cracks and we can have it free, but I dont use jaws for its limited things
I think paying 1000 dollars for jaws, as post 1 sed, is crazy work, cause we have more screan readers and nvda have jaws sounds

cartertemm wrote:

moderation:
Mahdi, consider this a warning. Your previous account was banned, after consecutive warnings, on counts of discussion regarding piracy. You were given a second chance on the belief that you wouldn't repeat the same mistakes. It's true your place of residence might have different laws on the issue. But might I remind you, we're not all living in your country of residence. This forum is strictly opposed to theft in all it's forms. While some locations do have a more laid back approach, I hardly think freedom scientific or VFO or whatever they call themselves these days is ok with you cracking their products. If they were you would be able to obtain a license in ways that don't include reverse engineering, disassembly, or otherwise. So here is where we currently stand. This is your third warning in the last couple weeks. Under the community failure clause, one more mistake/rule violation within a reasonable timeframe will, no questions asked, result in a ban. You've received more than your fair share of cautions in the last month and a half alone. Please be careful and watch your step for now on.

Personal recommendation, but I highly suggest you read over the rules very carefully. Make sure you understand every single one completely. If you have questions, the topic is their for clarification.

Seems a bit over the top to me, unless I'm missing something here, a post perhaps that I skipped over, but that post does not call for a mod worning, since all the user is saying is that they use or can use cracks in their country and that in their opinion using jaws isn't worth paying $1000 for.
Many users on the forums have said that they have or used to pirate something that doesn't mean that we are posting links to those pirated cracks here, or giving instructions on how to get it or do it. so. ahem.

Now that that's out of the way,
I started using jaws back in 2009 2007 when NVDA wasn't even in development, with obviously a pirated version as I am not from one of those first world countries where the government or other billion organizations provide users with asistive software equipment. so yes it would be fare to say that I am quite used to using jaws, but if I am being honest I have found myself switching over to nvda more often than not in the last few years.
There are situations where both jaws and NVDA excell at and places where one is better and the other is worse. maybe its just me, though I haven't noticed any of the sluggishness that people have been experiencing with NVDA.
Nvda has 2000 open issues, that is probably bugs? I do not know if it would be appropriate to call them as such, but I am sure that jaws has many such too, but not so open for us to see, unless jaws is on github too?
Grryf

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
Follow me on twitter

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2019-03-14 12:35:43

Please, stop with those 2000 issues, it makes you look like a person trying to find something negative to say and nothing else. Do you realize that a bunch of those are feature requests and not stuff that makes NVDA buggy or at worst, unusable? Even feature requests are usually not ones reasonable to implement, like one that talks about every language having it's own synth, and so on. Moreover, issues were not always closed back in the days when NVDA was not on GitHub and was on their own server, which were just transfered when moving to GitHub. So if you have nothing to say, don't talk about 2000 issues. It's a ridiculous argument and does not show anything. I can make a request on GitHub for NVDA to have virtual cursor in powerpoint now. Until that is implemented, my issue will stay open, and then we will have one more. Out of those 2000 issues, I would say maybe 200 are valid nowadays, however that's approximate. By the way, Chrome has over 50000 issues, so it must be buggy as hell and even unusable by that silly logic. There is also one more point to address. UIA support is a hacky workaround? Okay then, Jaws is slowly switching to that hacky thing which majorly improves performance. You do know that the reason Jaws has a good performance is because it in fact, provides many hacky workarounds that are simply not in NVDA? I personally don't care whether it's hacky or not, as long as it helps users which this clearly does. By the way, UIA support is not the only thing improving office support in the next release. UIA support is in fact still experimental and not recommended, there are other commits introduced to specifically improve performance in Excel, Powerpoint and Word.

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2019-03-14 14:39:01

@69 the rule does state discussion of cracks, that was discussion of a crack.

@70 Oh but legit issues, they get dealt with, right? Sadly not, most either stay open with comments from another user confirming or siting examples that yes, this is an issue, or just ignored altogether. SO while I see your point in saying 2,000 issues aren't always what it seems, it's equally absurd to act as if everything is OK with them even though they're straight up ignoring or closing legit issues. If you want to take swipes at the Jaws users, then don't be equally myopic.

I don't care if you pay the bills, if you can produce your deed or your lease,
If you have a cat, the cat owns your crib.
Sorry about that, I don't make the rules, the cats do.
For multi-cat residences, one cat owns the other cats, *and* your crib, dang, eh?

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2019-03-14 18:24:15

I would like to ask for examples of such issues. There is no issue closed without any reason, or as you put it straight ignored. Each NVDA release has a list of always more than 10 bugfixes in it, so it's not like they are not dealing with bugs. By the way, I have nothing against Jaws in particular, and as I have said in my previous posts screen reader competition is always necessary. If NVDA was to be the only screen reader we have, then a situation like you outline could easily happen, that is them totally ignoring us because we would have no choice but to use it. Thanks to the active competition however no company is really in position to do that.

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2019-03-14 19:06:43 (edited by grryfindore 2019-03-14 19:09:03)

@71, erm, no? but of course if we are going to be pedantic and are going to be dotting all our I's and crossing all our T's, then and come up with a few far fetched excuses reasons however improbable, then perhaps yes I could see that being considered as an discussion of cracks.
I would myself call that a comment which does not instructs how to crack, posts a link to pirated material or anything that a normal (non Extremest copywrite lawmonger) would consider a discussion of cracks, but an opinion and a fact.
Unless of course all of us under the new moderators and rules would be worned and banned just for saying I used to use crack of x y z, or where I am from most people just use a pirated copy of jaws (insert name of software) etc.


nidza07 wrote:

Please, stop with those 2000 issues, it makes you look like a person trying to find something negative to say and nothing else.

  Agreed with all of that post
and tbh I have noticed this kind of behaviour when it comes to apple vs android too, people tend to get in arms about the softwares screenreaders mobile devices they use and the rest is just meh, itnho, objectivity goes down the drain.
Nither is perfect is all I say, both have their uses, pros and cons, and this applys to all those things I mentioned above, and compitition is always good, leads to inovation and all such nice stuff, but...

getting back to what the op asked, I sometimes wonder myself anything that I get for free or $1000 with more payments down the line to something that I can use for free with 99% functionality being the same and or improving day by day, my pick would be the one that doesn't cost me an arm and a well not just a leg but the torso too tongue
Unless of course, I have some organization paying or the government that foots the bill of that $1000 in which case it doesn't cost me anything, or I decide to pirate / crack the thing, with the same results, then I sit down and compare them both and use them both where and when one or the other fails big_smile
Piece out,
Grryf

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
Follow me on twitter

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2019-03-14 19:17:23 (edited by Ethin 2019-03-14 19:22:00)

Oh, this issue hasn't been closed, and the last comment asked if it would be fixed. Legit issue, methinks... and its gone unfixed and opened since July of 2018 so...
Also, the counterargument to "oh, they transferred them from the old server" and whatnot is this: the logical thing to do when you transfer issues (though I don't know how they did it) is to go through and clean up those that aren't an issue. The next logical step is to close those issues that have actually been fixed. Get with the times, man, a project with over 2000 issues open certainly makes one think that it has terrible maintainers or has been abandoned. Looking at the labels, there are 500 issues categorized under 'bug', 122 issues under feature, 335 under enhancement, 237 under Microsoft Office support, 101 under speech, 1 under P1, 115 under P2, 263 under P3, and 79 under P4. That's a total of 1,753 issues right there. And nearly all of them are categorized under other things, such as app freezes, app crashes and so on.
I'm not saying that NVAccess is bad or anything. But the reason the 2000 issues are raised repeatedly is that most of them go unaddressed, which is a cascading chain, since if one goes unaddressed, more and more and more go unaddressed, and so on and so forth. Strangely, Issue 8478 is marked as 'priority 1'. The last comment on that issue was, "Quentin is going to have a play with the colours, and then Reef will update the website." Oddly, this issue was never closed, which is odd since I guarantee you that there are lower priority issues that need a much highr priority than that particular one.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-14 19:21:48 (edited by nidza07 2019-03-14 19:25:51)

Oh Ethin, I guess that means that Chromium is also terribly maintained or abandoned, because I mentioned the number of issues on there in one of my previous posts. Probably Firefox too, just lazy to confirm that right now. I will check the link you provided though and edit the post soon. The transfer from a server was just a guess, it might not be the case at all, but whether it is or no that does not mean the project is terribly maintained. If it does for you great, but I certainly would not think that after I view the changelog for each release.
Edit: Yes, this link is a great example of something I also wanted to mention in one of my previous posts. Actually you are a smart user when it comes to technology, and you should often realize that with Issues, there is often a chain where one fix is blocked by a merge of one pull request. In this case it was the new speech framework which Jamie worked on, it happened to not be finished yet and thus this remained the case. the speech framework is actually a huge piece of work that will allow many issues to be fixed, you probably realize this yourself so I don't understand what's the intent of causing unnecessary confusion.

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