2019-03-08 11:44:50

Post 18. I agree. Accessibility, while improving, at the same time, is getting worse, because of fast changes. We can't keep up.
17. Let's look at NVDA remote, for instance. remote.ini is not encrypted. If I an get a hold of that, I could literally hack your computer. That's a security risk right there. The flip side is, don't use add-ons, but figured I'd provide an example.

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2019-03-08 12:24:17

That's far from hacking, yet again. My point is, if you know addons can be insecure, why would you install them in the first place in an enterprise environment? Not like NVDA comes built in with 200 addons once you install it. Even then, as long as you install addons from the official site which is what you should be doing anyways if you are concerned with security, you wont face any security risks as they go through a code review.

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2019-03-08 12:25:46

hello, @17.
I am saying that nvda is fine, but it lags some times, and it also have some other issues.
and, people are getting jaws, and other payed softwares very easily because of pyracy,that's why they don't care about the prise.

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2019-03-08 17:56:46 (edited by braille0109 2019-03-08 17:58:40)

27, I'm well aware of that. But the remote example I gave, and may I point out that's an official add-on, is valid. I personally don't care if places are happy with me not using JAWS or not, as I use my own PC, can't stand restrictions. But these are possible concerns they may come back with. Of course, we could claim that even windows itself is insecure, just boot from USB, and copy off all data that's on it. To that, one could password protect the BIOS, if it's EFI based, and there, security issue patched. But if people want to claim that NVDA is a security risk, they'll find a way. Not to mention add-ons don't technically need admin permissions. I'm personally not that concerned, got like 30 or so add-ons. And perhaps others won't be either. It's also worth mentioning that once NVDA gets approved, you can more or less install whatever the hell you want, they're unlikely to have looked at add-ons, so won't know what does what.

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2019-03-08 18:09:18

@27 That's an extremely naive point of view. If you're the employer, to just say don't install any addons and expect them to do it, ok they might comply, but what if they don't, and your network is breached because of it? Can you really chance that? Can you just tell your 3 million customers oh sorry, our blind guy wasn't happy with Jaws and said they needed NVDA and that's the issue. From the employee's perspective, they probably see little harm in addons, and much benefit. How many people follow all company policies and rules to the letter? I mean come on...

Ironcross is here to expose the fakes and phonies,
Suss out the wheat from the chaff, the cheddar from the bologna,
I'm a superhero, y'all fools needa know this,
So if you on the other side of right, prepare for a fight no one will ever miss.

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2019-03-08 18:28:46

Nvda remote being insecure isn't an issue. If I can get hold and modify remote.ini on your system, I can get at much more like your browser profile which contains (probably) your passwords if you store them. You could also send keystrokes to a victim's computer if you have an application running and activate it that way.

Roel
golfing in the kitchen

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2019-03-08 18:31:51

I mean, if you don't follow what your company tells you and something like that happens, then the responsibility is yours. By this same logic a Jaws update could theoretically come out with a security flaw FS didn't notice, and somebody could exploit it. Any program can come with exploits. Just because it did not so far happen does not mean it never will. In fact we can argue that open source is even less likely to come with a flaw like that as more people will review what goes into the final product. Regarding the remote situation, well 2 questions there. First, how would somebody gain access to the remote.ini file in the first place? Second, isn't that valid only if you have the addon configured to auto connect, and why would you do something like that in an enterprise environment? I'm talking about things which users could do unintentionally to make their NVDA less secure.

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2019-03-08 18:49:55

The nvda remote insecurity thing basically had to do with someone handing out their key or using a very insecure one, THen one of the addons authors or an nvda developer, I don't know, connected to it, and sent a special string threw nvda which crashed it with an error dialog, not allowing you to restart it in the normal way because an error dialog was open. It was claimed that this resulted in loss of data, but a sighted person or narrator could have closed the dialog and fixed the issue. And the mess wouldn't have been created if the key wouldn't have been shared. If someone malicious controlls your pc via nvda remote, you're just screwed. Still unprofessional from the dev who did this though.

Roel
golfing in the kitchen

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2019-03-08 18:54:21

@25, I'm pretty sure it's stated explicitly in the NVDA license, though I could be misinterpreting it.

= Non-GPL Components in Plugins and Drivers =
Plugins and drivers, including those provided by third parties, are considered derivative works of NVDA and must therefore be licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2.
As a special exception, an NVDA plugin or driver (as defined in the NVDA Developer Guide) may use components under other licenses provided that:
a) Any such component does not prevent the NVDA plugin or driver from being licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2; and
b) Any such component does not directly use and is not directly used by any portion of NVDA outside of that plugin or driver.
For example, a speech synthesizer driver may use a speech synthesiser under a proprietary license.
In contrast, in a plugin providing support for an application, the code which implements any interface provided by NVDA must be licensed under the GNU General Public License version 2.

Who threw the big green talking wheel? It's been demanding that I find whoever injured it for the past several hours.

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2019-03-08 19:33:45 (edited by Dark 2019-03-08 19:37:00)

I'm afraid for me Jaws was never an option simply due to the price.
I used Supernova for years, but when in 2017 it turned out their windows 10 support translated to "supporting those bits of windows 10 we want", and not making any effort to fix the rest, I knew I needed something else. I would have liked to have tried Jaws simply for the sake of having a wider perspective, however with the price of Jaws in the Uk being as stupidly high as what it was, I saw little point in trying the demo. If it had been 50 quid, maybe even a hundred I'd have certainly tried  for comparrison but the thousand or so the thing costs? On your bike!

Really, if Freedom scientific want actual people to buy their software, not government organisations, not schools, not agencies (, they need to bloody well drop the price, and when I say drop, I mean really! drop, since hay as narrator and NVdA become more widely known you can bet agencies who are wanting to save cash will be less likely  to pay inflated prices.

The fact that we are even having this discussion, proves that from the end user's perspective the decision isn't as clear cut as it appears, and when people are debating the merits of something that costs over a thousand pounds, or heck even a hundred pounds vs something which is free, it should be a no brainer.

imagine  if  your legs were  paralysed and someone said to you, "well you can buy this top of the line electric wheel chair for a thousand pounds, which will go at multiple speeds, which you can operate with a stick,  which folds up to be light enough to go in the back of a taxi, or you can crawl around with this walking stick for free. You will need to drag yourself along on  knees, and probably get blisters, but it won't cost you anything"

The decision here is pretty obvious, the benefits of paying for the wheel chair over the benefits of not buying a wheel chair and using the free, if vastly inferior option.

Unless Jaws is so much better than the alternatives on offer so as to present that sort of choice, then the price is a serious problem.

Of course I will freely admit I am slightly biased here, since I haven't experienced the issues people mention with NVdA lagging etc, and was even able to finish my PHd with their office support, complex footnotes and layout and all.

I also don't doubt that were I to get a huge pile of money tomorrow and try Jaws there likely would be a thin or two I would find an improvement, but the problem here is not whether Jaws is better than NVdA or narrator, but whether those things Jaws is better at justify the price being charged from the software.

Again this isn't to knock anyone who uses Jaws or suggest that people should stop doing so, heck I used supernova for close to 24 years myself, especially since I was bought a license when i went to university and so just had to pay the odd hundred quid for maintenance upgrades, just to question whether at this time when some bloody good free alternatives are possible the current Jaws pricing structure makes  sense, especially from the perspective of potential new users like me.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-08 20:04:56

@34, that's odd. I think that was talking about app modules, global plugins and other drivers. Nothing about addons though. Either way you can still charge for the code; the Lambda app module is closed source and you have to pay for the software. Linux is licensed under the GPL V2 and people have paid OSes that run with that too.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-08 20:21:21

#32 Yes you would be responsible, but the breach would still have occurred. I'm not saying NVDA itself is insecure, I know that it is audited, and I know that addons wishing to be featured on the community page also go through a review process. I'm saying that NVDA can open a door through the use of addons that otherwise would not be open. That's why NvAccess needs to make an enterprise edition that goes through maybe even a more rigorous process, and doesn't allow addons.

People disobey company rules all the time. I've been on countless twitch streams and heard chats like watching at work. Hell, some apps even have a boss key, which lets you tray the thing in one command, I can only think of one right now though, which is VLC> Look at people who come in 10 minutes late every day, or people who take a 35 minute lunch or a 40 minute lunch when the period is 30 minutes. People use the phones for personal stuff, the printers for their own crap, etc. So it's not unheard of that someone would also just install addons. after all, what's the harm in better this or that, or a better clock, checking the weather, etc.

Ironcross is here to expose the fakes and phonies,
Suss out the wheat from the chaff, the cheddar from the bologna,
I'm a superhero, y'all fools needa know this,
So if you on the other side of right, prepare for a fight no one will ever miss.

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2019-03-08 20:58:13 (edited by Chris 2019-03-08 21:06:26)

I think either an enterprise specific version, or the ability to install the screen reader with add-ons, the Python console, and other developer features permanently disabled would solve this problem. If it's such a concern, let the IT team install and deploy the screen reader this way. I tell you what though, using JAWS in an IT role sounds like a royal pain in the ass. Why worry about authorizations, license servers, installing video drivers, etc onto each and every machine when you can walk around with a USB drive or use Narrator?

Freedom Scientific is going to learn the hard way that they can't continue their price gouging practices. That might have worked in the 90s and early 2000s, but we have more options that work very well for 99% of the tasks someone would need to do. If applications aren't accessible, developers should take the time to fix them. Scripts are a band-aid solution. We should be trying to improve the world, not temporarily solving problems and making excuses.

I agree wholeheartedly with Dark. Once Windows 10 is more mainstream, I hope agencies will finally see sense and stop feeding this monopolistic corporation. The JAWS annual license is a good idea, but it's only available in the United States and is far too late in my opinion. I still think it would be a great idea if the JAWS and ZoomText divisions of Vispero were purchased by Microsoft. Imagine the talent those folks could add to the Narrator, Magnifier, and Disability Answer desk teams. Sadly, I don't think Microsoft would go for that. Oh well.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.
You may access my NVDA Remote, Three-D Velocity, Sound RTS, and Road to Rage servers by using the address christopherw.me. Road to Rage uses the default 6789 port.

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2019-03-08 21:56:00 (edited by Slender 2019-03-09 00:16:47)

@36, What would be the difference between addons, app modules and global plugins? I'd think an addon would just be a package for an app module, global plugin or driver, and thus that exception would apply to it.

Who threw the big green talking wheel? It's been demanding that I find whoever injured it for the past several hours.

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2019-03-08 22:16:40

@39, I honestly don't know, and The NVDA addon development guide doesn't explain the difference (though they are working on it, supposedly). I know there is, however, a difference. An app module for example only works in a particular app. An addon usually works everywhere. Not sure what a global plugin is though compared to an addon, but the NVDA appdata directory does have different folders, so I suspect there is a difference.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-08 22:26:05

No. An addon is basically a user friendly way to install either app modules, global plugins, synth drivers or braille display drivers. In fact, just copying app modules global plugins etc will no longer work in next NVDA, however if you are a dev you can enable a temporary directory from which NVDA will still load them. More or less any extention for NVDA should be packaged as an addon unless it's a temporary work you are testing as a dev. Something not related to this. Totally forgot how actually, secure, Jaws display driver installation is. It's so secure that I remember literally being unable to boot Windows after some Jaws installations in the XP days.

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2019-03-09 08:12:28

@38, it's funny, because I asked Rajesh Jha, the executive vice-president of experiences and devices at Microsoft that exact same question: why they didn't acquire Freedom Scientific to then have all those highly qualified accessibility engineers and why they were putting their money on narrator instead. Although I don't think it's confidential, I'm not sure I'm allowed to say everything he answered me because it was kind of a private Q&A, but I wasn't really satisfied with his answer anyway, he definitely has a lot of work to do and discussions about a whole ton of subjects that I didn't expect him to have the answer, but basically, I'd say it has to do with security and the mirror driver thing. He told me something interesting though. I asked him why accessibility, why were they investing so much in accessibility. He told me that sometimes, they do an accessibility feature that turns out to be a feature sighted people like too. He gave the example of speech synthesis reading incoming messages/e-mails, he said it turned out be be super useful for drivers in cars because they could hear their messages without having to look at the screen. Now obviously, it's kind of a nice answer, but it's one way he looks at it.

However, I also went to Microsoft's accessibility summit and I think it was open to everybody so I guess there is no secret here. I asked the guy in charge of narrator your same question after a talk on narrator's new features. He told me that they were aiming a lot towards multiplatform, they were already showcasing narrator on Xbox, so obviously you couldn't port jaws to Xbox, it would be a nightmare. I then asked him if they were collaborating with jaws even though they were working on their own screen-reader and he told me "we are collaborating very closely, very closely.".

In the end, and this is my own opinion, it's a question of visibility (no pun intended) and money. It's expensive to do an acquisition and the upper management have other stuff to do. They care about accessibility, they really do, whether it's for complyance or empathy, although I'd say it's probably a bit more of the latter because of a ton of reasons. However, a company has to make money, I mean shareholders always want the famous double digit growth. While I'd personally love to see Micrrosoft acquire Freedom Scientific must it only be to get those awesome engineers, I'd probably not do it if I were the CEO, because it does not make a lot of sense money-wise.

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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2019-03-09 08:18:49

I am an NVDA user.

When I tried using Jaws, I felt like it was eating at my system more than NVDA was.  Additionally, the screen resolution limitation is a huge downer for me, due to the software I use requiring, in some cases, 1080p minimal resolution (Superior Drummer 3).

As for office related stuff, I don't use Microsoft Office, but a free program called Open Office.  It has alot of, if not all the same capabilities as Microsoft Office, and can even read/write documents in MS format, is free, and works very well with NVDA, at least for me.

As for music, I use Reaper, because using outdated Sonar with Caketalking scripts, which are equally outdated, doesn't appeal to me.   I found, for my applications, Reaper has done everything I ever needed it to, plus some, and NVDA is the home of SIBIAC which is an awesome add-on that makes a lot of very useful VST plugins accessible in a very unique way.

Everyone is going to have something that works best for them, and in my case, it's NVDA.  Not saying I will hate Jaws, because Jaws is the first screen reader I ever learned how to use back when I was in high school, and shortly after; even when I could see, I always had low vision, so I would actually test myself, and use Jaws with my monitor off, just to get the proper feel of it, so  for me, I do have to say thank you to Jaws for getting me started with Screen readers, but in the end, I ended up jumping ships to better fit my needs.

Recording artist @ Bass Mekanik Records.  Albums available Wherever digital albums are sold.
My YouTube Channel
Drum Covers | Video Game Covers

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2019-03-09 08:31:32

To answer the OP's question:

1) I didn't find equally good voices on NVDA. Now while some people might say they don't care and some might say they love the voices on NVDA, I prefer more natural voices like the Vocalizer Expressive ones. To me, if I'm gonna hear a voice talking to me all day long, it better be good. Plus I use a French voice and an English one and I like how I can quickly switch between the two voice profiles because I switch all the time. I'm pretty sure this must be possible too with NVDA, but I didn't find how IIRC last time I tried.
2) I find the onbaording easier with jaws. You launch JAWS, next, next, next, install. Then there is a configuration wizard to quickly setup jaws and voila, you have a very good screen-reader out of the box. Now I agree that while there is a ton of options and configurations, it's somewhat painful to dive in the settings center and you most often than not have to guess what you are looking for in the search bar. When I tried NVDA, there was not enough options for me, I couldn't customize it to my liking. Perhaps I needed to install addons, but I find it particularly painful to go seek addons, find what I'm looking for, install it and stuff. I'd prefer that the official addons could be a list of checkbox during the installation and ask which ones you want.

Is it worth the money? I don't know, for me it's free versus free and I got enrolled in the jaws propaganda when I was young and naive. Would I pay $1000 for jaws? Probably not at first. I'd really power try NVDA and if I really go nuts about NVDA, I'd buy a jaws licence before breaking my computer apart. Though I think iI'd get used to NVDA very quickly and it also depends how much money I would make in that hypothetic situation tongue.

Welp, that's pretty much it. I don't see other differences, but voice is important to me. Also, I'm not qualified to say if jaws is more responsive than NVDA or the other way around, I'm just saying what drawback I had when trying NVDA for a few weeks.

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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2019-03-09 08:38:35

I think it is a matter of getting used to the scream reader for example, you have used Jaws for lets say 4 years. In most cases you will find it a bit hard to get back to NVDA. About the Jaws i actually have a lisance for the 2018 version, problem hear with the schools lisance in my area is it only is supported for a year and then they will have to pay again for a upgrdation which will take sevrle years mabey or when Jaws the version you are on is no longer supported. That is when they will upgrade Jaws for the user.

]

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2019-03-09 08:50:12

For me, JAWS has a few good things about it.
* The developement team are full time, paid employees with at least some structure, I'd hope. They also probably haven't changed much over the years.
* JAWS is a single package, that has enough scripts to do most things an employee needs to do.
* JAWS stands for Job Access with Speech. This means, to m at least, that it is more geared to employment and use by people on the job. This means JAWS can't be sluggish with Microsoft Office, should read things in an *efficient* manner, and should be as configurable as possible for meeting the needs of employees who use it.

Now, to me, NVDA works fine because I know how to use it well and what addons to get. I load it with good sounding voices, because Microsoft's Windows 10 voices have aweful pauses and boring entonation, and all they have done so far is patch Narrator to not pause for so long. I have the clock addon to keep up with the time, and use programs that work well with NVDA.

But a JAWS user, some one who may have just gotten hired, would want to be *productive* and *efficient* in their work, not hunting down an addon and using an obscure program to get something just about good enough. No. They want to get to work, and they need a screen reader that is ready to work as hard as they do.

Now, I don't agree with their pricing, they just love to have money and they know that bisunesses and governments will give it to them. But for home use, NVDA. Jobs, use what wis effective for the job.

One thing I've learned, through giving my computer multiple operating system disorder from switching from Windows to Linux to another Linux and Windows to Linux... Is that you shouldn't use something just because of ideology, especially if you have a disability. Sighted people could use Linux just fine, even in work situations most likely, if they stick with Debian or something. But for blind people, use what is effective and efficient and gets the job done well, not something where you have to fiddle around and learn markdown or LaTex or Org-mode and set up Gnus or Mutt or Seamonkey or fiddle with Thunderbird's compacting settings and make it not hog resources and such, taking valuable time when you could just be getting your work done.

This is why I used a Mac during my internship as an Assistive Technology Instructor: I knew it well, could fly through email, write documents well in Pages, and had a Windows machine to use NVDA with Google Docs with because Google and Apple aren't on such great terms.

All in all, at home, use NVDA, give them some money if you can, and learn stuff. But on the job, focus on the job, use what makes you fast, effective, and efficient.

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2019-03-09 10:57:13

Security... Security... SECURITY!  Online security!  Fact: your online information is never truly going to be private.  This really is the end of the discussion, but everyone starts arguing from this point onward rather than truly examining this statement for what it is, so let us keep going before we atempt to throw the security aspect out the door entirely as it pertains to screen reading technology.  Please bare with me if you will, as this will more than likely be a rather lengthy post.
Every company is itching to sell your information to someone to make extra money for themselves.  If they haven't done it yet, chances are they will in future, because just as everyone is itching to sell it, someone is itching to buy it, and you don't need to necessarily be a security official with a warrant to obtain it, particularly in the United states.  Consider how many of these companies and their products you've used in your lifetime:
1.  AOL
2.  Microsoft.
3.  Apple
4.  Amazon.
5.  Google.
6.  Yahoo.
7.  Verizon.
8.  Twitter.
9.  Facebook.
10.  Netflix.
11.  Hulu
12.  Ebay
13.  Paypal.
14.  Timewarner/spectrum/comcast/ any brantching subsitiary.
15.  AT&T/any previous bell servics such as southwestern or Bell south, singular wireless and other brantching subsitiaries.
16.  t-Mobile and any other services they are affiliated with.
17.  Cricket and any other services they are affiliated with.
18.  Uber
19.  Lift
20.  If none of these apply to you, do you do any online banking, transactions or commerce of any kind, online dating, cloud computing, college courses and or other online education, email, sending, receiving, etc?  More than likely, you do, as you are currently visiting audiogames net, and unless you're seriously taking a ton of steps to not leave a footprint, someone's already got your number.
So, how much of the above applys to you?  I obviously can't provide the answer to that.  How much can you do about it?  You can move to another country, block Javascript from ever running on your PC, always delete internet data after browsing sessions, bounce through as many open wireless networks as you can, brows around for a good VPN that doesn't log your data at all, get yourself a ProxyGambit, never use a single addon or plugin or anything that claims to be an extra when browsing, listening to music or overall general computing and online consumption, always remember to use HTTPS at the beginning of every URL and hope the website you're browsing supports it, never download files off the net, never plug a drive containing sensitive data into your computer while you're online, use as many throwaway emails and other socializing accounts as you can with as many different passwords as you can remember, and maybe, just maybe after doing all of that consistently you'll be, well, secure... Safe... Something...
Except for the people factor, because unless you're flat out avoiding people online, someone's going to give you up, eventually, either as an accident or direct act of malice.  Whether you believe people are inherently good or evil, there is one thing people all are, and that is able to communicate on some level or another, through facial expressions, auditory signals, sign language... I'm sure you get the point.  Unless the person on the other end is braindead, they can communicate, and that communication translates into knowledge/information, meaning that unless you're going to just stop trusting every single soul you encounter you're pretty much going to have to deal with acquiring something no security suite or firm can sell you, called common sense!
What does that have to do with screen readers?  Have you ever stopped to consider the many actions that screen readers, all of them, perform, by default, on a computer?  How many of them are similar to what addware and spyware do?  Run in the background once allowed to do so?  Install other pieces of software?  Gather information?  Log said information?  Ability to send that information elsewhere?  Alter the behavior of a piece of software?  Send a restart command to your computer?  All of these are things I've seen screen readers and spyware, both capable of doing.  Truth is, in many places and for many reasons, spyware, addware and stealware are legal pieces of software that are allowed and, in some cases, may already come bundled with your PC!
No, I'm not saying security isn't important... I'm saying security isn't an honest answer on either side of the fence where screen reader discussion is taking place.  Don't tell me JAWS is more secure than NVDA because it's closed; it belongs to a company that is doing goodness only knows what with it behind closed doors.  Don't tell me NVDA is more secure than JAWS because it's open-source; it belongs to anyone who can modify it, essentially making it a free-for-all that, unless i'm a dev who can examine it closely, can really do just about anything I might not want it to do.  At the end of the day, all you're left with is common sense and your own judgment, or hiding under your bed and never coming out if you have none of the former.  Information leaks; it's going to continue to leak because everyone wants it!  Knowledge is power, and I know no person in life who wants to be powerless.

I do not know what my future holds, but I do know who holds my future.

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2019-03-09 11:42:38

@Origine as regards NvdA and voices, I'm running vocaliser expressive with nvdA right now, see https://vocalizer-nvda.com/

Yes, I had to pay for the voice licensing, but it was worth it as  the various free voices NVdA came with just weren't responsive enough to work for me, and Being vocaliser you get all the language switching etc.

I'm also a bit confused as to what people mean about NvdA having a "complex  setup or needing many addons.

I started with NvdA in January of 2017, and only downloaded my first addon after a good week or so of using the program, and that while learning a new version of windows at the same time.

I can't even say its that there were similarities between NVda and Supernova, since other than web  shortcuts such as h for heading or b for button they really aren't too similar.

As for addons, I only use a few addons, and those  for  programs rather than to add general functionality to NVdA, such as speaking text in interactive fiction interpreters or adding some extra control info for vlc media player.

I think the only pure functionality addon I've downloaded is the one to speak clipboard actions, since I like to know when I've copied text to the clipboard.

I also can't claim any specific aptitude with screen readers or experience either. My attempts to use my lady's version of Window eyes were quite a disaster, and my one try out with Jaws wasn't any better. Indeed, maybe the "complexity" people mention is simply a matter of Jaws and NVdA doing things differently, and people being used to the one as opposed to the other.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-09 17:45:24

46, thunderbird isn't actually that much of a pain to use. I have used it since 2012, and it works quite well. They have fixed the compacting issue, so it asks you to compact once gains exceed 20 mb.
  42, I wold be curious how you got a private Q&A with Microsoft's vice chief in in user experiences.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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2019-03-09 17:47:07

and Rashad, what accessible stats package do you use with NVDA? Stata doesn't work, SPSS only works with Jaws because NVDA doesn't support 64 bit Java. Your best bet is to use R from the command line, because R studio isn't usable at all.
Anoter point on office UIA support. There are bugs with NVDA office UIA support. Specificly, comments and corrections aren't read properly.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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