2019-03-14 19:23:28

@75, never said that it meant that for me. The changelogs do mean that their fixing issues, but the only way to know whether those issues are actually those that need fixing is to dig through each one.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-14 19:28:34

@76 isn't that why they made the survey precisely? To see which issues users want fixed the most? Considering that latest release is going towards Office support, I'd hope we all can agree they are on the right track. I do guess that since you follow GitHub as well, you probably saw the snapshots too and should know what's inside 2019.1

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2019-03-14 19:33:34 (edited by Ethin 2019-03-14 19:39:24)

@77, yes, their on the right track, I'll give you that. So yes, I do hope NVDA improves and gets their act together. Chromium may have a large quantity of issues but most of them (at least the most recent ones over here) have been 'assigned'. So yes, I do hope to see that issue count slowly decrease -- both for NVDA and for Chromium. I don't follow NVDA's issue list but I do follow their developer and add-on mailing lists.
Edit: the link above was for V8, Chromium's Javascript engine, apparently. I can't find the list for Chromium though...
Either ay, I believe we have seriously derailed this discussion. Let's try to get it back on track shall we?

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-14 19:41:53 (edited by nidza07 2019-03-14 19:51:45)

Yeah, regarding Chromium, I was thinking of the same page, however let's not go off topic too much. I'm actually surprised nobody brought up something way better in the latest Jaws update, and that is Jaws's ability to describe pictures. Currently only English, however I will let FS describe this feature. From the changelog:
Picture Smart for Describing Images with JAWS and Fusion
Picture Smart allows you to choose a photo and submit it to be analyzed. A description of the image is then displayed in the JAWS Results Viewer window. Descriptions might include details such as the number of people in the photo, recognizable landmarks, landscape details such as "outdoors with a blue sky and green grass," if there are vehicles such as automobiles or trains, and more. If there is text in the picture, it will OCR the text and provide that as well.
To use Picture Smart, press INSERT+SPACEBAR followed by P. Once the Picture Smart layer is active, the following keystrokes are available:
• A - Open the Picture Smart dialog box where you can acquire an image from a flatbed scanner or the Freedom Scientific PEARL camera.
• F - Describes the currently selected image in File Explorer. Supported images include BMP, JPEG, GIF, TIF, or PNG.
• C - Describes an image associated with the current control. For instance, a graphic on a web page or in an email message.
• B - Describes the contents of the Windows Clipboard if it contains an image.
• QUESTION MARK - Displays help for the Picture Smart layer.
JAWS now also creates a new PictureSmart folder which is located in your user documents folder under My Pictures. If a single image is saved to this folder, JAWS will automatically submit it for analyzing and display the resulting description.
To use Picture Smart, the "submit annonymous usage data" option must be enabled in Settings Center. This sends encrypted information to Freedom Scientific. The images from Picture Smart are then submitted to the various services (such as Microsoft and Google) which analyze the images and returns the descriptions back to us. These descriptions are then displayed in the Results Viewer. If you attempt to use Picture Smart and this setting is off, a message displays prompting you to turn it on.
Note: Picture Smart is currently only available while in the English Language UI of JAWS and Fusion as the services that perform the image analysis do not currently support international languages for descriptions of images. For users of localized versions of JAWS running in versions of Windows other than English, you must switch the JAWS UI language to English to try out this feature. We plan to make Picture Smart available in more languages in the future as these services continue to expand to include additional languages.
Except the terrible name, I actually quite like how this feature is described here and I am curious if anybody has the latest update and can write their impressions. NVDA and Narrator have their respective ways to describe a picture, however those are generally generic descriptions while FS actually parses the info on their servers which is quite cool and would allow improvements on their side as well.
Edit: It seems this is even more a year for automatic image descriptions than the last year. Check this amazing thing out from the Google's accessibility Twitter account:
Google Accessibility,  Coming later this year: Screen reader users can ask Chrome to get automatic image descriptions from Google when an image is missing alt text. Get a sneak preview now using Chrome Canary, just open the context menu! #a11y #CSUNATC19

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2019-03-14 19:51:49

Well, considering they use google image translate and other services, all their servers are doing is acting as a relay (a relay that doesn't really need to be there). I am curious though exactly what data they send to their servers that is "encrypted" though...
I do like the idea, though considering that NVDA and JAWS leach off of one another, NVDA is bound to get this feature sometime in the future (though hopefully with a better name than picture smart).

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-14 20:01:44

The way I see it, is rather than let's say Google directly telling you something like flower, tree, branch, Freedom scientific's servers could parse this info and provide a more natural description. Regarding the name, funny that even smart picture would sound better but definitely not something I will complain about if the feature works. There is a demo in the latest FS cast, and Jaws gives you the probability of the description being accurate, for example it says these elements probably describe the image, and where it is not sure it would say something like these elements may be in the image.

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2019-03-14 21:21:45

Here's one, now granted, this person didn't exactly follow the template, but it could be closed, siting that as a reason.

Ironcross is here to expose the fakes and phonies,
Suss out the wheat from the chaff, the cheddar from the bologna,
I'm a superhero, y'all fools needa know this,
So if you on the other side of right, prepare for a fight no one will ever miss.

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2019-03-14 23:06:43

hi All,
Regarding issues, here are some that are annoying, and have been ignored by devs. Specificly, NVDA spelling out console output when key echo is enabled.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/3200
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/513
Look how old this one is! And how serious it is.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/6291
And an issue related to IPA, which remains open even though I provided unicode values of IPA characters to Quentin.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5011
and
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2922

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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2019-03-14 23:11:27

Another sign NVDA is lagging, recently excel editing cells was broken, and NVDA would just say unknown and provide no feedback. This was only recently fixed a couple weeks ago in snaps.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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2019-03-14 23:50:43 (edited by nidza07 2019-03-14 23:53:23)

I do hope you read all those issues before posting. In particular, 6291 is definitely being worked on and there's an improvement just recently so that it does not at least freeze the entire system, right now in a paused state obviously as NVDA is getting ready for a new version and no major code changes will be introduced. 2922 also talks about why such a thing is hard to implement as it stands since it is different based on each language, so unless you did not read all the comments I don't know what's wrong in the current issue staying open. For the one talking about typed characters and command prompt, actually I would not be surprised if that is addressed soon since now NVDA does not support Windows XP and Vista. In any case you can have a temporary workaround, that is create a CMD specific profile where you will have key echo disabled which is what I did until this is fixed.

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2019-03-15 00:26:50

you're just hunting for reasons now, using any rationale to justify your position no matter what, rather than admitting we've made valid points.

Ironcross is here to expose the fakes and phonies,
Suss out the wheat from the chaff, the cheddar from the bologna,
I'm a superhero, y'all fools needa know this,
So if you on the other side of right, prepare for a fight no one will ever miss.

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2019-03-15 01:24:58

Sure, if bringing up issues which are worked on
or with a reason why they are not worked on is a valid point, then yes, you are indeed right.

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2019-03-15 05:06:08 (edited by UltraLeetJ 2019-03-15 05:07:31)

rather than admitting we've made valid points.

I would correct this to 9 valid statistics.. points is a whole different matter, context is pretty important when you want to submit something for peer review, you know, and it actually does not accomplish much in the discussion anyway.
A similar argument would have been why fs and jaws used video intercept up until 2012, but oh, no one went and created this winy mess over it.. nor question that with such unfounded severity, they just accepted it... to me it was always ridiculous that I absolutely needed a 300% working screen to use a program to read the screen to me, so most driver installations or new computer setups were impossible at best. But its nice to stop and think that maybe fixing an issue which has a integral or key component to it can break and damage the thing, forever. Which again, is a moot point because you can always learn some coding style, and help out if you really and desperately need or want the process to go faster instead of being very vocal in forums. Which is sadly what most open source software (including liblouis) has turned into nowadays--lots of negative feedback, very little tries at actual improvement work from users that have the potential to help out--which is the nice alternative to not having to pay a single cent for anything.

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2019-03-15 08:46:18

hi
I saw carters moderation, in post 61 now: I agreed with this topic
This forum's copyright and cracks discussion problem
as this post sed, I dont lurned anyone that how's crack, I just tolled that in here this way is choosed for useing jaws: so, I realy hate this moderation types: if you just tell about it you'll be banned? big_smile realy realy realy stupid rule

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2019-03-15 14:25:43

Moderation:

this is not a warning, a ban, a caution or any other punitive action. It's simply me putting on the mod hat.

The issue here with Carter's warning is twofold:

1. Mahdi is not new to this
This is a person who has been banned before, who has been punished before, for the same sort of thing. There have been unrelated warnings and cautions dropped lately, and so Carter's reaction is as much a citation of the community failure clause as anything else. We are trying very hard to make a system that works and treats people fairly, and not one that's going to impose draconian sanctions against individuals at the drop of a hat. If your immediate reaction to Mahdi's warning makes you feel it's overkill, please consider the big picture. It's firm, yes. I'll grant you that much. But overkill? I'm not sure.

2. On the discussion of piracy. While it is true that Mahdi did not link to any way to crack Jaws, his post normalized the practice. He did so in such a way as to potentially encourage people to passively do the same thing. In other words, it was unapologetic, essentially saying "I see no reason to pay big money for it, so people in my country just crack it". This is a tacit admission of complicity, either on a moral level or an inclusively literal level. If Mahdi had framed his post in a condemnatory or neutral way, he almost certainly would not have received any feedback for it. For instance, saying something like "I don't have an opinion one way or the other on this, but people in my country often crack Jaws". Or saying, "I used to crack Jaws way back when, but now I just don't use it. It's not worth it to me. Some people still crack it in my country". Both of those are just stating facts, with very little harmful bias. The second is a tacit admission of past guilt, but we're not going to try and slam someone for that.

so yeah. Big picture, folks.

I do think that a post made in Site and Forum Feedback highlights a very real issue, however. This whole piracy thing is complicated and difficult to pin down easily. So while I understand and mostly support Carter's choice here, I can see, also, how it's ruffled feathers a bit.

The long and short of it is simple:
If you're going to mention cracks or piracy, it's probably a bad idea to make it seem as if either 1. you're engaged in the practice openly, 2. you're encouraging others to join you, 3. you're passively or actively supporting those who engage in the practice or 4. you have a history of piracy or piracy-related offenses that the community knows about.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-03-15 18:08:11

@90, thanks for that explanation. I agreed with Carter's moderation post/action but enjoy the extra knowledge behind the decisions and the conditions under which it is generated.
As for the issues on NVDA, I think one of the major problems with fixing these issues is that the issues don't occur universally. I.e.: NVDA doesn't freeze every 30 minutes on all systems like I've heard it does on some, excluding mine (it rarely ever freezes). Granted, some issues are more universal than others, but as a developer I can see how fixing issues that aren't universal can be a bitch, especially when you have no idea what, exactly, causes it, and so have no idea where to start. So you have to implement hacky workarounds and, by the time you've fixed the problem, you don't want to go back and remove the patchwork because its already fixed and you'd rather not regenerat the issue or generate new problems because you fixed that one (granted, that's not really a valid excuse because every time you fix something you break something else), but its generally the mindset and its understandable, to a degree. However, the amount of open issues also plays a part in this. I think that most of them haven't been closed and/or worked on because no one has stepped forward to do so and to take the burden unto themselves. No one has taken the burden unto themselves to aid in the reparation effort, too. So that is down to the community, but we enter a kind of feedback loop here, because that then boils down to NvDA's development documentation being quite poor and not documenting everything, causing people to not understand the code.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-15 21:41:52

Regarding the mod issue, I honestly think that Mahdi wasn't doing anything wrong here. He meerly stated  that some people in his country  crack it, and that it wasn't worth paying money for. I doubt the idea that JAWS isn't worth the money is a uncommon one. He didn't even say that he himself did any cracking, though even if he had,  I think that what people do outside this forum is their own business.
As for NVDA, the issues I posted here  are not exactly nitch issues. They are all easy reproduceable, and yet command prompt spelling output is issue number 500 or so, which means it was open at least since 2012 or so, and yet noone has done anything to resolve it. I would say that is a really severe issue, and could easily be solved by switching to UIA.
These excel issues are also indications that NVDA office support is lacking. These shouldn't even exist.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9317
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9195
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9194
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9193
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9147
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9145
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8963
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8923
Even the workarounds to speed Excel are a bandaid solution, and in this issue it is pointed out, and that UIA switch should be made.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/9257

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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2019-03-15 22:17:44 (edited by Ethin 2019-03-15 22:21:31)

@92, I've never experienced the "spells everything" issue your ponting out in command prompt. I'll try to reproduce it.
Edit: OK, I have experienced that issue, partially at least, in SSH, where it will speak characters I'm typing when they arrive at the remote system while I'm typing. Weird. And yeah, that issue has been around since 2009, according to the first comment. The last comment was, "I've seen it happening with Windows 10 as well".

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-15 22:38:17

Hi.
Well, two things, regarding the mod decision, it's believeable, was well explained some posts ago, I fully agree with that.

Now, regarding jaws and nvda, I primarly NVDA for my daily work, jaws is just there for one or two tasks where I am in need of the jaws cursor, but else, well, it's lying here in its demo form and that is where it will stay.

Greetings Moritz.

Hömma, willze watt von mir oder wie, weil wenn nich, dann lass dir mal sagen, laber mir kein Kottlett anne Wange und hömma, wo wir gerade dabei sind, dann iss hier hängen im Schacht, sonns klapp ich dir hier die Fingernägel auf links, datt kannze mir mal glaubn.

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2019-03-15 23:27:27

Could you explain enes how do you switch to UIA for command prompt support, and even more so how will that easily fix the spelling issue as you say? Just curious to know.

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2019-03-16 00:19:47 (edited by enes 2019-03-16 00:26:30)

Hi,
NVDA devs explain it in the google summer of code possible projects.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/G … Ideas-List
And ethin, to reproduce this, turn on key echo, and type anything in cmd, and you will have it read out letter by letter.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

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2019-03-16 00:54:50

Thanks, this page is pretty informative.

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2019-03-16 01:04:25

@96, I did that and could not reproduce the problem. If I go into command prompt, press NVDA+2, and type w, I here 'w', as expected. If I then press enter, I get the normal command output tat w isn't recognized as a command, without it spelling anything out.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-16 01:37:49 (edited by nidza07 2019-03-16 01:38:28)

You need a larger output for this to happen. I give an example probably many do not use, and that is ADB for Android. For pretty much any output it will first spell it out and then read it properly. Think this also works with CMD apps like Youtube DL but not sure.

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2019-03-16 02:37:20

I've had it happen before

Ironcross is here to expose the fakes and phonies,
Suss out the wheat from the chaff, the cheddar from the bologna,
I'm a superhero, y'all fools needa know this,
So if you on the other side of right, prepare for a fight no one will ever miss.

Thumbs up