2019-10-05 19:36:32

@Jack: I think it all comes down to two things, security and trust. With Google, it's basically we'll give you this software and for the right to look over your shoulder on a frequent basis you can do whatever you like, so long as you care to let as in on your business when you do it. See, we trust you that much, Apple is just the opposite: we don't trust you not to break something vital, so we'll put child safety locks on so you won't trip, fall and hurt yourself and us too. Also, if something breaks, you come to us to fix it, and no one else. Which approach one prefers is up to the individual. Which is to say, that's probably the reason why there is no iOS runtime for developers to work with, at least not yet. Now, time for another question. How many audiogame developers have worked directly with Apple? I'm betting the answer is very few, aside from the long review process of getting the games on the App store. How many VoiceOver users are actual Apple engineers who can correct things as soon as they come up? I understand MS has someone like that on staff who's helping with Narrator. Maybe it's time blind game developers sat down with Apple, now that they've woken up to the fact that games are an important part of  the reason people use computers, and had a week or two of heart to heart.

When the wandering fire strikes the heart of stone, will you follow? Will you take ... the longest road?
Guy Gavriel Kay

discord: tayo134

2019-10-05 22:06:33

I don't have a Mac and have never really used one, but we deal a lot with Apple at my work where I am the lead developer. We have had a good experience for the most part. In terms of audio games, if you make commercial products the $100 a year really is not that bad. You'll make it back in no time. I am not particularly interested in writing games for the Mac given the small user base, but I am seriously considering buying a Mac and an iPhone just so I can make iOS games as well as Windows ones.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

2019-10-05 22:54:34

@PhilipBennefall:
As far as I'm concerned there has never been a better time to jump into ios development, considering Swift UI has gotten a major rework. Voiceover accessibility is finally center stage to an XCode update, so if you're coding in Swift you will have a much better experience than you would have a few years back (scripting in Swift was always possible, but the ui and your source files were often not completely connected so as to make avoiding drag-and-drop next to impossible. Beyond that, we have seen the beginning of a few libraries for Swift such as audiogame utils. The god thing, though, is Swift is obviously not your only option. You have Visual Studio available for IOS development, though you will obviously still need a mac to access the connect store. The problem with third party tools is that not all of them use standard ui elements, but that should go without saying knowing how many mainstream games are written in engines that have their own control structure, particularly the cross-platform ones.
@tayo.bethel: Fair point, though I wouldn't swear behind Apple as far as being fullproof. No company ever is, really, but almost all of the screwups that Apple has had, ironically, have been catastrophic. Group Facetime loopholes, and the Siri grading system just to name a few. While the other companies are *starting to get better* at aggregating data, we always kind of knew it was happening to a degree.

2019-10-05 23:02:00

tayo.bethel wrote:

How many audiogame developers have worked directly with Apple? I'm betting the answer is very few, aside from the long review process of getting the games on the App store. How many VoiceOver users are actual Apple engineers who can correct things as soon as they come up? I understand MS has someone like that on staff who's helping with Narrator. Maybe it's time blind game developers sat down with Apple, now that they've woken up to the fact that games are an important part of  the reason people use computers, and had a week or two of heart to heart.

Other than Microsoft, what company really does sit down with a developer and have a little heart-to-heart? Apple has never been a games company until just recently in their service spree of a presentation in March. Accessibility, sure, but not game accessibility. Even Microsoft obviously hasn't been involved in accessibility, let alone game accessibility, for as long as they have been involved in the gaming market.
Let me be clear. Unless you represent a known company, good luck getting a lunch-in with the bigwigs as it were. No companies is going to take time out of their busy schedule to sit down with home-guys making a game unless they make a name for themselves that makes everyone stop and take notice. And if they market their game as being just for the blind, then getting mainstream attention from corporations is wishful thinking. The industry is changing.

2019-10-05 23:30:33

@Jack
I use C and C++, leaning towards pure C, so I will have no trouble building on more or less any platform that I can get my hands on as long as I can access its libraries and so on. I have been spending time this year building new infrastructure for sound, text to speech and all the other obvious things like keyboard/mouse/joystick input etc, and I have made sure to make it cross platform from the start. So really my ownly issue is lack of experience developing for the mobile market. But I'll get there. smile

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

2019-10-06 00:47:13

@129:
Note: I never said that any company has ever done it; that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. All of us who use Apple products know Apple's always been big on accessibility. So why can't a company that's been so supportive in regards to accessibility be approached on the subject of games? I'd say now would be a good time to try, right when their gaming service is just taking off. Not later when it either doesn't pan out or is so popular that our voices don't have a chance in heaven of being heard over all the noise being generated by rolling coins. At the least maybe some Indy developers would like to try their hand at making accessible video games for the Arcade. Sorry if this post seems to ramble, but seeing all the "Apple doesn't care about us: is a bit wearing. If, after Apple is approached on the subject and either says no flat out or prevaricates on something till it never happens, then the complaints will be justified. Until then, talking to Apple about game accessibility is still an idea worth pursuing, in my opinion. Perhaps I'm just an optimist, but I still think it's worth a try at least.

When the wandering fire strikes the heart of stone, will you follow? Will you take ... the longest road?
Guy Gavriel Kay

discord: tayo134

2019-10-06 01:44:18 (edited by jack 2019-10-06 17:29:12)

There's a big difference between Apple noticing games and Apple actually helping with infrastructure. Apple knows that these games are around, they're just the ones sitting back and enjoying the entertainment and reporting on it as far as games are concerned. They've never taken the initiative. The closest we got is Draconis (edit: corrected typo from what it was previously), since Josh does actually work at Apple, which does give an advantage in familiarity with the Mac and IOS.

2019-10-06 02:49:26

@Jack: Point taken. It would be nice to know just how many blind people report things like VoiceOver clunkiness on the Mac or no reliable way to find accessible games on the App Store directly to someone in Apple who can do some moving and shaking, though. I remember listening to an AppleVis podcast the other day where they were talking about the new features coming in iOS 13, and the public relations officer or some such was blind. He made a comment that caught my attention. He said that as a VoiceOver user he could go straight to the engineers and say this and that doesn’t work, and sometimes he would get a reaction like “you really use this? OMG!” Or a reaction along those lines. Everyone laughed politely, of course, but that sounded like a communication link was missing somewhere. So to me, the idea of sitting down with the people who build accessible games  seems not just a good idea, but just plain common sense, even if Apple isn’t exactly known for it’s openness to customer feedback.

When the wandering fire strikes the heart of stone, will you follow? Will you take ... the longest road?
Guy Gavriel Kay

discord: tayo134

2019-10-06 03:35:31

IT is a good idea, unfortunately doesn't make financial sense though because it, quote, doesn't satisfy the masses.
PR has the advantage of going straight to the engineers. Customer feedback winds up in an endless void.

2019-10-07 00:50:32

I've never been an Apple fan boy, but a big selling point was having voiceover built right into the computer, and not having to spend a grand on Jaws.. I even said in my post from a few days back that Apple's $100 a year charge to developers is a bit harsh when some are not charging for the programs they're developing.. I can still see, and I get to watch TV and movies in HD, I produce music that sounds professional, I like Apple music just fine, and I don't have to take this thing into an IT at all. My Mac does what I need it to, and I'm happy with it.. I believe the more noise that visually impaired Apple users make, the better. For users, and developers. I heard many times that Macs are much more sicure than PCs also. For three years I've had a better experience than I had than the passed 15 or so I had using a PC, but still I'm not waving any Apple flags.. All I'm saying is use what works for you. Don't be upset at others who don't agree with you, because in America they have the right to their own thoughts. I could go back to windows if the issues I had are rectified, and Apple keeps going downhill. What happend to freedom of speech?

2019-10-07 07:13:18

I do see validation in both arguments, I just want to say that.. There are functions Macs can't perform, but you just learn to get along without them. haha

2019-10-07 18:02:56

The point I was trying to make was that although I do find Mac in many ways preferable to Windows, I in no way think Mac is better than Jesus.. Thats all. Technology is ever changing, and who knows whats coming in the future.

2019-10-08 02:33:20

@137, um. OK. Then. That... was unexpected.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2019-10-08 04:41:01

@138 Yeah I'm confused too.

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion