2019-09-25 04:01:50 (edited by Dark 2019-09-25 07:35:41)

Hand mining is fun  and a great example of how to make a grindy activity interesting, I loved learning all the compounds and what to do with them, (though it'd be nice to bennifit from skills), and while I wish  ore extraction still involved fighting its at least  doable.
the only problem I do have at the moment is hunting and with harry's quest on ?Navu.
Firstly, navigating the hunting areas is bloody difficult, I got so lost I required an assist.

Secondly, its not always clear what commands to use. harry on navu used to provide a tutorial now his quest seems near impossible.
I spent ages getting lost, and then when I went to Harry I couldn't give him either meat I'd cut from a corpse, or corpses themselves, and eventually I sold him my meet cooler by mistake, which was very frustrating.

I also don't like the fact that at the moment I can't get to harmonia because neither merchants nor taxis go there, which means I can't buy basic things for crafting like a hammer. indeed I like that crafting is more intigrated into the game, but its a bit rough if there's no way to get supplies.

I'll give hunting another go and see what happens.

Okay I gave hunting another go now I can't sell anyting, that after dying by falling into an animal trap and leaping the wrong way.
this activity needs some fixes and information I think, though I've submitted reports. A shame as its really interesting in its execution, its just frustrating to waste so much time and get nothing for it when i might as well have just been hand mining or extracting ore all this time.

Also what is it with harmonia and not being able to get there? Really its a right pest when I don't have a ship and can't use taxies.
I was waiting for a merchant ship but the mud went down and now I can't reconnect.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-25 08:08:26 (edited by Dark 2019-09-25 08:09:02)

Okay this is now odd, the game has been down for an hour now, having just literally died in the middle of me playing. 
Very frustrating! especially after my hunting issues.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-25 10:36:31

So that's you, Dark. I told you to be careful of bushes, didn't I?

@Americranium: I'm finding I don't like star studying much. My issue is this. I can either risk my ship I spent money on, upgrade it....or buy a cheap ship I can make the money back on, easily. Problem is.....

I find CR too spammy in several regards. I think there needs to be a redo of activities. I loved the early game, volcano harvesting was good, and once you got a ship, it opens up (now I've quit blowing mine up I like it a lot). I just feel like the econmy needs a rebalance. I got punted from 70 wayyyy up and lost out due to not getting cash. Fortunately a kind soul's given me money to put me where I need to be

@Dark: If you see Kira Callahan on, just ask on the chat or link to me, I'll happily fly ya to Harmonia, that's my go to area to start my nebula and planetoid runs, so just let me know you wanna go to Harmonia.

Okay, okay, I get it's an IC issue. But for gameplay reasons, I'd rather see Harmonia get its taxi back. Or, hey, I'd rather see from a pure OOC perspective, taxis and rifts to Harmonia and merchants going there to allow new players to get there really.

Also, the spam needs to b toned down with activities.

My current go to is nebula harvesting for money and points, right. I got into a groove of checking the temps, but why should th ecomputer be so eager to announce every little thing? Sure, I could put it on silent, but, but.....that's not the point. I don't want to know rod 2 got plasma. I only want to know about the important stuff. I only wanna know when the temprature changes.

Same with the PD...whatever drone missions, I can't remember that acronym for the life of me, but I don't want to know what everyone else is doing. I want to only know about my drone, honestly. I only wanna know what /my/ drone is doing.

Also, leave it to me to go for a 500 trillion cruiser when there's ships that are less expensive...thank the gods for dry docks. Also chuckling over my IC rant on my ship about weather. Turns out, nope, my ship can't land in bad weatherr.

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2019-09-25 11:54:52 (edited by JaceK 2019-09-25 12:45:39)

My thoughts on grinding. Okay, make it interesting. Make it actually rewarding, too. I'm gunning for a ship that's 500 trillion with any and all upgrades I can get at 600. Yes, I know I could wait till 1000 and then get a ship with everything...But.....but......I would rather get a ship at 600-650 or so, then upgrade it as I go. I just feel, and I'll link back to Connor's post in the 'space muds with good sound packs' topic, that I only do the acticity that gives me the most cash. Is that minmaxing? To a point. But, I don't feel like the activities pay that well compared to ranks. I'veb been doing beuilding deliveries, but for some reason I always get stations though.

On that note, I feel like factories are a little redundant, in the sense that, okay, I could get my own factory, but why when everyone else has theirs, will I really find a use for it?

EDIT: What do I mean by fun? I personally enjoy space combat because it keeps me on my toes. Okay, I'm not the best at it, but I'm fine with it long as I'm part of a crew and can help. Same for the sub base mission. I enjoy it, because it mixes it up. Fight through ships. Destroy drones, then dig down and destroy planet. That's three mini activities in one. I like that sort of activity. I do though have my own ideas for redoing activities.

Heres' my criteria:


1. Is it well thought out?

2. Is it fun to do over and over over and over. I don't think the hand mining is fun, since you only get so much water/acid and keep using the water to help dig.

3. Is it rewarding?

For example, let's use hand mining.

Is it Is it well thought out? Yes

2. Is it fun to do over and over and over? No, IMOo

3.. Is it rewarding? Yes when you first start out

What I'd change:

1. I'd tweak it so you don't use the water from the kit for wetting the earth. Insead I'd do it like this:

You have a canteen or water bottle that you get as an item from the mining shop where you get the kit, or it comes with the kit. You do scan as normal. then you get told oh, there's a spring at so and so. So you fill up the water  bottle. You use that to wet the earth and dig into it. You save the water in the kit for finds.

Additionaly, you could upgrade the kit with more storage, at the cost of water/acid slots.

Or example #2 and this is a bit higher level...but salvaging:

Currently you either do lines and deal with rats, or once you get drones and nesters, boom, those go splat (that's so satifying though I was worried when I saw escape pods...which led to a 'what the fuck rats can avoid nestors now' reaction that had me laughing).

I'd like to see it done like this:

You could either do lines or drones as now. Or you could go all in on salvaging and bring along a mobile salvage station,you'd send that out of a drone bay, it'd set up and be like a station, it'd auto salvage and deal with Ratika. It's not an instant win, however....

You'd get it when you get debris drones, but there'd be defence upgrades, shields and its own nestors.

Why did I mention defending the station?

Because, dear readers....pirate magnet. You deploy this thing, it'd bring pirates into the sector and going straight for the station. They'd send out drones to steal your salvage you collected or from the debris cloud. However, they play by the exact same rules as player, meaning they run the risk of getting infested with rats.

Imagine, you jump into a sector and see Wanderer putting up a MDS, then see pirates jump in. It wouldn't count as an invasion per se, but they'd go for the station. Naturally, Wanderer would want to defend his salvage, right? Now say I'm in my Hellfire and I se this and help outt....destroyed pirates = salvage and blueprints, yeah? Now, those pirates have loot they, well, pirated. So you'd have an easy way to get pirates and minerasl.

Caveats:

1. This'd only be in lower security sectors. D and below.

2. Once you shot up all the pirates, there's no more for that MDS.

3. It's not a guaranteed pirate attack.If you get too good at it, or destroy too many pirates in a short space of time, they won't bother showing up. Even if you're in the area and not doing anything.

4. Extremely, EXTREMELY rarely the pirates will be fleeing from one of the enemy races, bringing a sole 'boss' ship in,and that /will/ trigger an invasion message.

Imagine I just set up my MDS. Spot a pirate and oh fuck, a Vaccus mothership wanting the pirate dead. So I get on general and yell there's a Vaccus mothership in sector whatever. It'd be a super rare boss event (or could be triggerd by hosts too?)

Edit #2: And the server needs to come back up and stay up, too. I swear one of the hosts said that the server crashes should be fixed, mind. Thought there was an auto restart script for the MOO?

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2019-09-27 07:08:42 (edited by Dark 2019-09-27 07:32:13)

Can't speak to a lot of things, but I love the suggestion of a spring in the hand mining area to fill your kit up rather than having to use water containers you bring with you.
maybe I'm more patient, or maybe i just remember the amount of time I kept doing original hand mining and diugging and walking, but hand mining seems a lot more interesting in long periods now as well as much more rewarding.

While we're on fixes, it'd be nice if ore extraction from volcanos could require a bit more than just typing "spelunk" over and over again, but I'm guessing you haven't got around to that activity quite yet, though I  do like ground combat so more chance to do that would be fun, (I wonder how assignment points work for mutariansi).

Edit: and the mud is down again this morning! Okay this is really irritating!
I don't remember things being this bad when I played previously.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-27 21:18:45

information, Due to recent server instability, the mud will be taken down from 21:00 GMT for around 15 minutes. This is because we are going to role back to a previous, more stable, version of the server which has less features but is more enjoyable for you, the player. This will occur in aprox, 43 minutes, and will be heralded by a countdown. Thank you.
This will not affect any saved items you have acquired.

Nathan Smith
Managing Director of Nathan Tech
It's not disability
It's ability!

2019-09-27 23:06:00 (edited by JaceK 2019-09-27 23:11:04)

I got a lot of suggestions, but they won't fit on a support ticket. So, @Dardar: Where do I put my suggestions? yes, I thought of the spring.

As an aside, you'd get a spring after every so many finds, like you do 3-4 finds. You get a spring with between 1 and 10 water, each water fills up your bottle.

On that note, I've hit an impasse. I can't get a crew together for any of the group activities, and the rewards I've got from plasma have nosedived. I suck at star studying, and all of the other stuff is either group (volcano mining, planetoid chunks) or needs higher level stuff (planetoid exploring and ship wrecking).

So here's my suggestions to deal with that.

1. Have a volcano miner that's got NPCs in it. You can either do the group activity. Or you can buy the solo volcano miner. It'd have NPCs or automation that'd mean okay, you're stuck with being the driver, but you can at least /do/ the activity without relying on other players. I asked for a crew to help with an activity, and the response was, quote

You can't pay me enough to do that, then the discussion was how weak the payout was. That shouldn't bee a derermining factor in an activity (Star observing in question)

I'd like to see each of the group activities paired with a solo activity. I mentioned volcano mining.

Let's take the aforementioned star observing for example. I can go on my own, find the place, start it up. I'd be given the pod and facility. I'd do that, but I'd have to do a little more leg work to set up the automation. For example, set up and align the antennas and thins like that. THen I'd have to stay on the facility and wait it out. I'd have to then carry the data back to a certain facility. If I step off the facility, the data stream resetss, or I'd have to repair the computer for example.

Or, for planet exploring, I'd be able to hire NPC mercenaries that follow me around, attack enemies, but they take half the cash reward if I hire them, but to balance it, they'd come with gear suitable for planetoid exploring and surviving, matched to your player rank.

@Dardar: Just a little peeved about this. You said 15 mins of downtime, it's been a bit longer than that, can you try to be a bit more accurate with the announcements on the server. If that's not the hosts putting up what you say then I'll take that back, but when it's said 15mins downtime I expect it to take around 15mins. Not t nearly an hour, unless there's problems, which should really be communicated.

EDIT: Okay, remembered the activities, I got quie a few that suggest no max rank, but I'm rank 797, why would I go volcano harvest, why would I do rank 15 activities? More to the pointt, a klot of the higher rank activities I can do solo don't give point rewards (building deliveries for example or planetoid chunks or the celestial splitting). There needs to be a rebalance of the activities. If an activities state they got no max level cap, I expect to get good rewards. Not for them to give out less and less reward, especially when that one activity is the only one I can do consistently, because players aren't willing to group up for activities that are suggested for my rank range. I've tried asking IC, I've tried OOCly to get groups together, I've tried private comms both IC and OOC. Nobody wants to group up any. And it's not just me with this. Everyone's off doing their own thing. So what's the point of the group activities?

Before anyone says oh, just farm plasma over and over and over. I could, but I've noticed the rewards for that getting less and les and less the more I do it, and, there isn't (that I've noticed anyhow, correct me if I am wrong), a good reliable solo activity I can do consistently for points. I can make a lot of cash easily, that's not the issue. Points and ranking up are the isssue.

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2019-09-27 23:45:57

Alright.  I really should go back and slog through all 670 posts before this but,
after trying this game way way back on page 1, grumbling at it  and then going back  for almost a year now.  I have to say  I fell in love.
I've seen cr through the past year of changes and I do try to  help people out where ever I can
so a few things, Factories, Think about them as you're basically building your own station, or in my case a man-made village complete with holograms and a village look.
the newbie activities,
It's all about what you want to do.  mix up hand mining, trash ore extraction.  rank 5 it's trash collection. volcano harvesting at 15.  yes the activities do space out  at higher ranks  star studying becomes a lot easier with the purchace of a donater item though it's doible without.
some people and I'm starting to see this that even rank 1000  harvesting gas,  specifically bioplasma gives good cash and points.
finally  the community on this game is far far better than the other 2 space muds I've played by far.
If anyone needs or wants help grab an ooc link with me  as either Firath silvery white scale Kuro, Lance collins.  I have a ryuchi, Keyra luminous pink designation who's going throw the newbie activities herself since they've been modified and tweeked.

and for the record yesI did come down hard on cr way back on page 1.  3 years ago and I do deeply deeply regret that  I was young and stupid back then.

I will now go back through a pile of 600 posts.

and I will now slam my head into the nearest desk.

Keep up the good work nate!

I'm a blue eyed, pale pink, kitten.
A blue-eyed, pale pink, kitten that can smash the smashing out of people.
I'm mew, and you're going to get smashed.

2019-09-27 23:54:33 (edited by JaceK 2019-09-27 23:56:15)

You were helping out earlier, so thanks. I've talked with you IC and OOC, Furrath, (I'm Kira Calahan there)....but I disagree.

I don't feel like rank 1000+ should get rewarded for gas/plasma harvesting when there's activities meant for their rank range. Take me for example, I am, as said, rank 797 or thereabouts, I forgot exactly where....so tell me why exactly I should be doing one activity that gives good points and cash? Here's my issue with that....

It's boring. It's boring when I have to either slog through sectors to find nebula, or hope a wormhole takes me to a nebula remnant, or ask for a ride to one. I don't think people aboe a certain rank, and yeah, I'm including myself in this, should get points for higher levels. Here's my idea. Give those activities a levdel cap. Give them a max cash value, and once you're past the cap, you only get the max cash, no points.

Also, yeah, the solo activities need too be a thing.
I do have my factory going between my post about it and this one, but I feel like I need to get to a certain rank to enjoy the game. I'm not going to name names, but I had a very honest and enlightening OOC discussion with a certain person, who was helping out quite a lot and was giving himts on what to do. I do think a lot of the issue is certain players are set in their ways. Personally, if I was a host I'd implement a change to keep playrs around their activity range. Like if Dark wanted help with hand mining and I showed him what to do, that's a level 10 activity. I wouldn't expect any reward for it.

So. How exactly do the level caps work, exactly, is it how I've described?

EDIT: I've been told by quite a few people to stick with plasma till 1000. Problem is I also got told the more I rank up, the less the rewards are for said plasma.

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2019-09-28 01:00:40

Some are set in their ways yeah.  but also  I think it's done  to give a wide range of things for people to do. eventually you can at rank 900 go exploring in deep space  where you find nebula belts planetoid belts.
rank, 850...  you can get access to moon gear and moon haul to planets.
but if you want to do something  lower rank  like star studying which actually caps at 750  then you can.

I'm a blue eyed, pale pink, kitten.
A blue-eyed, pale pink, kitten that can smash the smashing out of people.
I'm mew, and you're going to get smashed.

2019-09-28 06:19:27

I just wish I could get more then 1 rank from transforing star core chunks. I usually fill it to the mac. I'm on their as orran and corey

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2019-09-28 11:21:11

The one unfortunate problem I do occasionally run into, is that there are just aspects of the game which are not clearly documented or which perhaps have been altered.

For example, Harry's hunting quest. I just kept giving him meat, he kept eating, no completion. In the end I've just abandoned that one after fetching him about 20 slices given how much of a pain getting meat is.

Next aircraft missions. I buy an aircraft, go to sola invictus, I assign an aircraft mission and I'm told something about load ship delta five. The help file says "load your aircraft onto the carrier" but where is this carrier?
Asking on chat produced nothing, map command produced nothing. If this is a military installation wanting you to complete missions you'd expect people to be a bit more informative, and since its a comparatively miner aspects of gameplay at the moment I couldn't find anyone who did it to ask.

Again, Again, Again if Of course, I could just continue volcano harvesting and get ranks relatively quickly, or heck just  a bit of airpod blasting which is a great way to rank up quickly, however again if the point of the game is to give players many things to do, I do wish there was either a little more documentation, or that when matters are changed the changes are intigrated into the rest of the game.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-28 13:09:24

I was offering to fly over and help you out repeatedly, I don't know if you didn't get my messsages, but I did offer several times to go over and take a look to help you out. That offer still stands. Yes, I agree on the documentation part of it.

However, if you'd asked on newbie, you might well have got an answer. Though my offer of help still stands. I've a lot of feedback for the event tonight, the htpc, so I'll bring up the documentation unless you get to it first. I do have a whole idea about redoing activities mind (see my spring example)

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2019-09-28 13:48:38 (edited by Dark 2019-09-28 13:48:59)

Sorry Jase K in this instance I just thought it was the sort of issue someone would have a simple answer to, and not one requiring someone to interupt their game, EG "go to the hanger bay and type ""mission launch" or something like that.
I did ask both on Newbie and chat but perhaps nobody was around who'd done aircraft missions, hence my comment  about obscure parts of the game, since I'm not sure how many people have actually been involved in none listed activities or events like quests and extra missions and such.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-28 15:02:42

Dark,
aircraft missions yes I've done them,
you leave your craft on the starship dock. go down, assign the mission make your way back up to the ship dock.  type load aircraft name in the loading ship  that's on the landing pad then once you and it are in there you have to sit down to start it moving.
when you're done  load it back in the loading ship  sit down and you'll go back to sola.
as to harry.
try giving him 20 pieces of sheep meat.
or try wrapping 5 sheep in your meet cooler.
since he's a dragon and dragons like sheep.

I'm a blue eyed, pale pink, kitten.
A blue-eyed, pale pink, kitten that can smash the smashing out of people.
I'm mew, and you're going to get smashed.

2019-09-28 18:33:48

I did manage to get the aircraft missions to work, but they're very fidly. The loading ship won't take off until you sit, and since the room to assign missions is in the opposite part of solas invicta from the starship landing bay its quite a treck, indeed  compaired to airpod defence the rewards were pretty stingy.
About Harry god knows. he likes sheep and I gave him sheep but there was no indication that the quest was being completed and he responded the same way to eating sheep meet as other things. he did give me a bonus when I bought him sheep carcusses, though by the same token so did other npcs with other animal types.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-29 14:16:46

Okay doing several more activities and raising my rank. I can nearly afford a starship which is good, and yee gods dredging earns a lot of points.
Thge the only odd thing is pollution capturing. I love the changes, but I've no idea what to do with the stuff in the upper atmosphere that needs cutting with the lasers, since I always seem to end up with chunks either too big to cut or too smal.

I have tried various methods, EG cutting a 160 m piece of debris into two 80 sections, then 40 then 20, or cutting it at 140 to leave a 20 section I can pick up, but I'm not really sure what the optimum size is.Even when I did half then half again, I still got to a point where I couldn't pickup anymore pieces.
The help file is surprisingly unhelpful here, only saying "cut debris into cunks" without any idea how to actually produce right sized chunks to cut.
A shame since like the other activities that have ben modified I'm noticing some changes.

Actually one thing I will say is its quite surprising to note activities like hand mining, hunting and pollution capturing that have received changes, and others that haven't.

Soon however it'll be starship time which will be nice.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-30 06:32:26

Dang. I was going to grab a donator item, but apparently donations are unavailable. sad

2019-09-30 07:54:20

Well done some more activities and even got myself a starship. I solved the pollution problem, since its not clear from the health that max size of the object is max size in your cargo hold, meaning that if you've got 50 units of space in there you need a piece 50 m long or better. Pollution cleaning is pretty cool though, having to track all the items and deal with them.
I do wish mutariansi had some better combat abilities, since at the moment since all offensive abilities use bioplasma and bioplasma armour takes all the plasma your regenerating,  ground combat missions can be long winded, still we're getting on better which is good.
About to start orbit cleaning, and I like the new outfit command at ratica stores, that makes life so much easier since yee gods I used to spend ages running around my ship buying different things.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-30 16:14:48

Meantime, I'm blazing a fail trail. From forgetting to put heat shields up for star study, to removing the only acccess to storage in my factory, well.....yeah. I'll keep a hold of the fail jar.

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2019-09-30 23:00:21

Oh if we're talking fail that is the third time I've died due to ratica poison knocking my head off Lol.
Though that being said the game is fun, a lot of systems seems more streamlined and there are plenty of new activities to do, I particularly like the extra scaling ones which will means I don't necessarily need to try everything at once, though I do wish ground combat was a bit more intigrated into the game rather than just basically being confined to sola invicta and a  specific zones with monsters.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-09-30 23:36:57

You want fail?

1. Went to wormhole.

2. Didn't check wormhole

3. Wormhole imploded with me in it

4. Got put in pod

5. Got insanely high UC

6. Tried to shoot myself with my gun. Got told I'm wielding a water gun

7. Eventually died by punching my arm

That's a fail train right there

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2019-10-01 18:06:35

I'm getting very good at finding bugs and breaking stuff. I /was/ gonna rank to 871 but then bugs happened so yeah....that's a thing.

And of course,it'd be my ship with the biggest cargo space stuck in an infinite transfer. I got to quit breaking stuff when hosts around to fix them, right?

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2019-10-01 18:24:26 (edited by mohamed 2019-10-01 18:26:19)

stupid question
what is it a MUD game

2019-10-01 18:36:29

A mud game is an online game that you connect to with a program called a mud client which sends text to and from the mud to your computer, and to those of other people connected to the mud.
Most are pure text, though several 9including cosmic rage), have very extensive soundpacks which give them a really nice audio atmosphere too, though this isn't %100 necessary for a good game.

You go through the game typing commands like north, south east west, get box, fight robot and so on, however where as in an interactive fiction game you type one response and get an answer, in a mud game everything is real time.
this means if your in a fight, you'll need to type commands as the fight is happening EG if your damaged you'll need to heal fast.
Some muds move faster than others, cosmic rage the pace is comfortable.

Some muds are heavily into roleplay, others are more rpg like with you going around, doing quests and so on, cosmic rage is a bit of both.

Hth.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)