2013-08-07 01:34:30

Hi all,

This will probably be a rant, but I'm sure many of you can relate to this. I currently use a notetaker, because I like the portability it provides, and I'm an avid reader and like to use a braille display. I've owned two Freedom Scientific notetakers, and while they worked great, they had to be sent in for repairs more often than I would have liked. I got tired of this, especially of having to send it in and pay $250 just to replace a battery.
So, I switched to a brailleNote apex from Humanware, because it had decent features and, more importantly for me, a user replaceable battery. I had a major issue updating their software to the newest version, and they had no idea what was going wrong so I had to send it in for a repair. They agreed to not charge me for this repair, much to my surprise, because I followed the update instructions correctly, but something went wrong on a software level.
I received an email today, saying that it had been repaired, but that several  braille cells are a bit weak, and they recommend me replacing the entire display for over $1000. I called them and said that I have not had a single problem with my display ever, which is true, and they said it would still work, it's just not as good as it could be. So, I opted not to replace it. Then, they said I should at least let them clean the display. I know how to clean a display on my own, but asked them how much that would cost, out of curiosity. They told me it would be at least $125. Really? Over one-hundred dollars to clean a braille display? I of course opted not to do this either, because I can clean the display on my own, and it's never had a problem.
I honestly just feel frustrated by this experience, because I've noticed no decline in the performance in my display, yet they wanted me to pay over $1000 to replace the whole thing. The apex itself costs over $4000, and I think that should be adequate. I understand that this technology is expensive, but it feels like they're trying to take advantage, by telling me my display isn't functioning properly, when I've used it and it's worked flawlessly.
As a side note, if they hadn't agreed to repair my apex software problem for free, the repair would have cost over $300 in total, not counting the display issue they claim I have. So, it would have been $300 for them to install software. That's ridiculous.
I'm a big believer in going mainstream when I can, and when my apex no longer works, I intend to use an iPad for reading. But, since I'm a braille person, I'll still need a braille display, so I will never fully be able to move away from these companies.
I normally don't post topics where I basically just rant, but I had to get that off my chest, and do so with people who understand. I just think it's starting to feel like a joke that any of these companies are truly dedicated to serving the blind community.

2013-08-07 03:12:20

What a coincidence! Why, I was thinking right as I opened the off topic room that I really should bite the bloody bullet and start an indiegogo campaign to try and build some tactile displays. But I am a horrible marketer and not a videomancer.
Still, $4000... Why, with that much money, I could probably cover travel/hardware/hired help costs _and_ build several useful devices. (I'm a bit unwilling to set a goal higher than $2000 for such a project, really, and not because the SSA will flip out if I have more than $2000 in resources.).

*Ahem*
Agreed. We will remember How frustrating a notetaker without a functioning battery can be. $250 to have it serviced? That will be the overwhelming majority of my money. (I think I have $350ish in Paypal, and with student loans more expensive than SSI, $250 will probably kill my bank account.).

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2013-08-07 03:32:52

I don't even need a dedicated notetaker, just a braille display. Most of the features it contains, I don't even use. But, I found out that there's no auto-advance mode using iOS, so my iPad and braille display combination idea won't work for me. I really need that auto-advance mode, because I do a lot of reading, and don't want to have to push a button every time I need to advance the display. I read fast, and would need to push that button every half second or so. Not going to happen.
I just wish there was a company that actually cared. You're dealing with a community that, unfortunately, tends to be a low-income community. I understand there's a cost for the technology, but all of these repair costs are ridiculous.
I would support anyone who can come up with a cheaper, alternative braille display.

2013-08-07 04:02:29

Hi.

Well I don't know this for certain, but I believe the braille edge has an auto advance mode. That's what I heard on main menu, I don't have a braille display. Waaaaay to expensive.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2013-08-07 04:29:11

Oh, it does have an auto-advance. Almost all of the braille displays do. The problem is that iOS has no support for an auto-advance mode. All of these features on a braille display are dependent on the software being used, so depending on your screen reader, you may not get to use them all. I've researched, and asked several sources, and iOS doesn't support auto-advance. Shame.

2013-08-07 04:41:33

Hello,
Here is what I suspect in such a society. I am not an economist, I am not a business person, I just know based on research. I will start us off with some of the reasons why this happens.
Money has been around for a very long time. It has been related with religion and beliefs. But since America was founded, they decided to be Christian, and this of coruse meant monehow people are using money to manipulate

other people so they can rip them off. I explained that the reason we have money is to motivate

a person to work. If he works, he will earn a reward. it is clearly stated in scripture.

However, people have found ways to commit sins with money and that is what we need to find a
As you know, the United States has enforced laws based on the primary characteristics of human nature, which is self, not other. That is why copyright exists, among a lot of other stuff. This is also why we are not as behind as other countries are in terms of resources. But what we are greatful is that we are human and we ourselves realize what can and cannot happen, because the government consists of people, but people choosing other people to lead the people is what matters in our culture.
way to manage.

Ulysses, KJ7ERC
She/they
Reedsy

2013-08-07 05:36:27

Humanware has increasingly seemed to lack humanity. The important thing to do, of course, is not require support--an inevitably impossible task. My opinion is that you were possibly being lied to in addition to being fleeced, but of course there is no verification. It just seems like a very unkind thing to do, indeed, when you pay so much and there is already a significant margin.

If you're like me, you're hostage. You need a braille display and Humanware has always been good about solidifying their interface and braille support. I am only sorry it can't be my primary device. However, while I love iOS, I'd never depend on it for consistent braille output as I can from the BrailleNote.

Oh, well. Perhaps later. Perhaps when mainstream products care about braille form.

Just myself, as usual.

2013-08-07 14:44:27

Ever been inside a  braille note nPower's battery compartment? Well... I have. That horseshit  they shovel at you about special Proprietary batteries stinks to high heaven. They are standard rechargable batteries held in a plastic cradle.  The whole things just sort of hanging out inside the machine. the inside of a braile note just lookes like someone who's tried to ram all the bits and bobs you would get in a phone box back in after opening. IE it's a total mess. They wanted to charge my friend something like 150 pounds to have the machine taken away and  it's batteries replaced.  I don't want to even think of the prophet margen these guys make on this hardware... I once red somewhere that a pacmate costs about $400 to build and then they are being soled on at about 6 K a piece. I guess this is standard practice for note taker builders. Could you imagine a human where laptop? The humanwhere lapnote pinical! A  super high  resolution 12.1 inch VGA lcd display! A massive 128 MB of DDR 333 RAM! An ultra fast pentium pro CPU!!! Now with 20 GB hard drive! Starting from just 8000 pounds! Get yours today and welcome yourself to the bleading edge of humanwhere powered productivity

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.

2013-08-07 15:27:42

Yeah, these companies really need to get with the times. With IOS and OSX introducing out of the box accessibility, and with Android not too far behind, gone are the days when blind people had to rely exclusively on yesterday's technology sold at an exorbitant price in order to function. I understand they're small companies, but really, paying thousands of dollars for an assisting device such as a Braille display while the computing device you use is only a few hundred bucks doesn't make sense to me any more, if it ever did.
I also had a pretty outraged reaction to Dancing Dots the other day, the company that makes Goodfeel and related music software for the blind. While I was lucky enough to have the Massachusetts Commission for the Blind buy me the Goodfeel package, in itself over fifteen hundred dollars, I now found out that in order for it to work with 64-bit versions of Windows 7, I have to cough up four hundred bucks for an upgrade that, aside from adding that much needed compatibility, doesn't seem to offer much of anything else in terms of upgrading. I'm sorry, but that's over a third the cost of my entire computer system right there. More importantly, it's almost as expensive as the whole price of Cibelius 7, which is probably the most popular notation software for the sighted out there.
This sort of massive overpricing is also evident in screenreaders. Take Jaws. Nearly a thousand bucks for a version of the program itself, with a limit on how often you can install it, and one of the worst license management systems out there, (though admittedly Goodfeel is worse). Then of course, if a so-called upgrade comes along, we have to pay up three hundred bucks, for perhaps one inconvenience fixed and a thousand and one bells and whistles added in that, I believe, the average person doesn't even care about. Does anyone here consistently use Research It, for instance? I personally never saw what the big deal was all about, since if I needed to do research, I did it on my own, online, like everyone else. Yet the way FS has been raving about Research it, you'd think it's the biggest innovation added to screenreaders since, oh I dunno, the speech synthesizer?
I simply don't know what to say any more. I understand that many of these companies are small and perhaps don't have nearly as many resources as corporate giants like Apple and Microsoft. However, at this point I feel that perhaps these companies have gotten a little too comfortable. They've seen blindness-related agencies, or schools, offer up millions of dollars to buy up their products for their clients. They know we're desperate enough. And now, even though they could probably afford to be more reasonable with their pricing, they're using our need for their assistive tech to leach as much money out of those agencies as possible. And because they're relatively certain about getting that money, they don't even bother trying to be particularly innovative any more. Truly, what have we come to...

I am Locutus of Borg. Resistance, is futile. Your life, as it has been, is over. From this time forward, you will service---us.

2013-08-07 17:01:11

Hi,
That's why I stopped using Jaws. Oh, and don't even tell me to capitalize every letter of that, because to me, it's not worth it. Job Access With Speech, well check this out: a PC isn't just used for work, as many of us browsing this website know!
I have switched to NVDA full time, I've got an iPhone, and I might end up getting a nexus 7 android tablet as long as I can find one that's got the latest version of android on it.

2013-08-07 18:02:15 (edited by musicalman 2013-08-07 18:14:08)

Hi,
I sympathize with you, LML. I had a simlar incident with my apex, though fortunately nothing came of it.
I got my Apex about a year ago, right before my Freshman year of college, which was quite a nasty experience the first semester, partly because of a professor who didn't understand the tremendous shock, and partly because of the tromendous shock this one professor didn't understand... Anyway, I'd just gotten a set of documents for my Western civ class, so I stuck them on a thumb drive, popped it into the Apex, and boom. Everything, and I mean everything, goes out. Tried a reset. NO go. Tried all the resets. Well, it would say loading keysoft, and would get stuck at 10 percent. Battery was at 60 percent so I knew that wasn't a problem. So I call Humanware, and got some Indian guy who I could barely understand, telling me that he didn't know what was going on and I had to send it in for repairs. I don't know how much it costs because the state covered it.
Anyway, I was getting used to using my laptop for note taking needs, and also using it for leisure needs as well... six weeks go by, and no news on the Apex. Since I wasn't desperately needing it, I wasn't in a hurry for it. People kept asking me, when's it coming back? Why don't you call and ask them about it? I always told them, they'll send it back when they're done with it. Little did I know, they probably would've kept it. When I finally called, I got a nice lady who asked me for some information, then got the shock of her life. Apparently it had been sitting for quite a while, doing nothing. I ended up getting it back in less than two weeks after that.
So, it was all fine and well, until I turned it on. I was in my jazz history class, getting ready to take notes, which I knew would be important for the final. The professor said, "you'll need this information down the road closer to the end of the semester." So, I race through the menus, opening a document. But, big surprise. flash disk is missing from the drive list! Now, The only thing I could do is leave the drive set to nothing. then, this O U contraction sign would come up, and I could continue. However, that wasn't just a little hiccup.
I typed the notes I needed to, then saved the file. A day or two later, it crashed, requiring me to do a reset. This time, it did come back, but big surprise II: my file was gone. at the time, I wasn't worried. I thought, surely I'd get another opportunity to write those notes down before they were brought to the front lines. I also thought if I fought with the Apex hard enough, I could resolve the issue. I was wrong on both counts. In less than a month I was back to using the laptop. People kept telling me to send it back, send it back. It's a $6000 device, it should work. While I do agree with that reasoning, I didn't want to spend the time sending it back. I couldn't trust that it was going to come back working to perfection. So it sat under my bed, for months, and months, and months.
Finally at the beginning of July of the next year, after the Apex was sitting there useless for 9 months, my tech teacher calls me. That was no surprise. His primary job is helping kids with technology, up through high school. But on the side, he also helps older adults, who are low vision, or who are in the process of losing their vision, get acquainted with technology they might benefit from. well, one of his clients was a person who needed help with the Apex, and so he called me. He wanted to take me to the guy's house with him so we both could help him out. I warned him that my Apex was screwed up, but he still told me to bring it and see what happened, then told me to get on it and call Humanware while it was summer and I wouldn't be using the Apex every day. I actually was going to call them, just to tell them what they did to it. I wasn't going to be all unprofessional either, but the whole thing was getting old. But I had to help this client first. So, since the Apex was long dead, I plugged it in, and left it charge overnight. When I come back the next morning, battery's at 100 percent. And big surprise III: now we have a flash Disk. Apparently the thing had been so dead that everything was reset.
Now, what I really don't understand, my M Power never had any of these problems, for the 5 years I used it. I used it hard, too. The only time I had to send it in was when I accidentally dropped it, and ruined the enter key. they had to replace the spring under the key, and it was almost good as new. The only problem was that it felt too stiff, but that was because the other keys had gotten a bit flimsy from heavy use, so I was used to that flimsiness.
I really do understand that some of these things are hard, and expensive to make. I've never heard of a cheap braille display that's actually being sold yet. I know several are in the works, but until one comes out, we'll be at the mercy of the big boys, at least in that department. But, I'd think if they're gonna charge $6000, they'd better pay us back in the form of decent customer service, and decent equipment! The Goodfeel example is why I will never buy a high end scoring software with a high end accessibility package with my own free will. If I end up buying it, it won't be my decision, and it certainly won't be my preferred software. I've found free software which meets my needs in the music side of things. It might not see me through to the music industry, because it's not like Sebelius, Finale, or any of those, but it does the thing I want it to do, which is make great music. I wouldn't want to score my music with the huge packages because that still requires a lot of sight to make sure the score turns out. Just because it sounds right doesn't mean it looks right, and I am the last person to go to for scoring questions/assignments. Why should I pay big bucks for accessibility when I'm probably going to ask someone sighted to help me a lot with it anyway? Okay the accessibility might help me do some things, but I'm not paying that price for it.

Make more of less, that way you won't make less of more!
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2013-08-07 18:22:31

Well, I haven't had quite as bad of luck with my apex as you, Raygrote. It's actually worked well for the 3 years that I've had it, until I decided I need the latest update. I wouldn't have even bothered updating, because these updates don't have many new features that are worth bothering with, but this particular update fixed some extremely annoying web browsing bugs. I'm even more amazed they agreed to fix it for free, but I had pointed out that I followed the update process that they gave to me, and that's when things went wrong. I think it's pretty shady that they tried to get me to pay them over $1000 to replace an entire braille display, when I haven't had a single problem with it. When I get it back, that braille display better be working the way it was when the device was last in my posession. But I do know that it would have been over $300 just for them to install the software, that includes a $95 fee just for them to tell you what's wrong with the thing in the first place.

2013-08-07 19:24:50

the problem is that these blindness companies Humanware, freedom scientific, and others have stuck to the same mantra there whole existence.  "we are developing hardware and software for a limited market and we have to up the prices."  you see this in jaws, braille displays, embossers, braille writers, and even the Sendero seeing eye GPS app for IOS.  while that statement was maybe true back in the nineties, it is definitely not true now.  its a whole different culture of people using the internet and technology.  back in the ninties you only might have used a screnereader if you needed it for a job.  hence job access with speech.  well, that is if you were employed at all as a blind person.  let alone working around the precious computers that the boss wouldn't want the blind person to touch for fear they might brake them.  now a days blind teenagers are using computers.  hence there gonna want cool tech gadgets.  they only way to get them now a days unless your rich, is to go threw a government organization like vocational rehabilitation services or something similar.  i wont even get started on that front.  they also say there researching ways to make lower cost braille displays, but i'll believe it when i see it. i'd love to have a braille display, but the only way for me to get one is threw RSB and i'd doubt they give me one.
while I'm not saying that its not expensive to make braille displays and such, i personally believe that if they could charge less not only would it open the market up more for us to buy it, but it would also open up the market for people in other countries to buy braildisplays. it would be at a lower price, but they still make the same money if not more because they are selling more product. apple could take some of this advice too.   basic business management 101 here.
as far as customer service  goes, i have heard that freedom scientific is one of the worst.  mostly because they get there money and contracts from government orgs.  they are not prepared for the end user to give them a call.  while i've not ever really had to call someone like freedom scientific or humanware, i've not heard good things about there customer service

I don’t believe in fighting unnecessarily.  But if something is worth fighting for, then its always a fight worth winning.
check me out on Twitter and on GitHub

2013-08-08 02:05:50

I can understand the higher cost when you purchase the initial device, though I think it's still overly high. But I have done quite a lot of research, and the way they make braille displays is quite expensive. However, the VoiceNote, which is the BrailleNote without a braille display, is still $2000. Unless you need a braille display, I don't see why you would spend $2000 for a PDA with speech. There are now alternatives to that. The tricky part is when you do need a braille display. There are actually several groups of people working on trying to come up with a less expensive way to make a braille display; however, the main big companies don't seem to be part of that group. It's small companies doing it, and with their limited funds, it's taking a long time for them to get these projects off of the ground. What gets me mad is that we pay so much money for this technology, and then when it breaks, they want us to shell out ridiculous amounts of money to get these things fixed. I also really wonder how cheaply they make some of these products. I've had mainstream electronic devices last me 6 or more years, and never had a single repair. But every notetaker I have ever owned had to be repaired more than once, for silly reasons. I can understand why you might need them to repair a braille display, but these companies that require you to send a unit in just to change the batteries are ridiculous, and they charge hundreds of dollars to change a battery. I appreciate that the brailleNote I have has a user replaceable battery, though it's $50, which isn't to bad, but then they want $20 in shipping charges. $20 to ship a battery? That seems excessive to me.

2013-08-08 02:34:00

Hi.

I agree completely with what is said.

That is why I use as much mainstream technology as I possibly can. Apple, windows Computers, etc.
I also follow the same policy with software like screen readers. We shouldn't have to pay more to access what the resto f the world gets for a lesser cost. But that is going off topic.
This is all just so frustrating.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2013-08-08 03:32:38

This trend will only get worse as the specialized companies realize that software will be less and less profitable with perfectly usable alternatives like NVDA and VoiceOver, not to mention the world of phones rendering the $1,000 screen reader a dinosaur looking the asteroid right in the shockwave.  So the specialized hardware is going to have to soak up the profit margin while the screen readers become loss leaders.
So do not expect any cheap specialized hardware from any of the established companies; look for a disruptive innovator like Aprone to break open the market, if Google or Apple doesn't take on the task themselves.  An Apple braille display would be slightly more expensive, but the machining would be flawless.  Of course it would only work with OSX and IOS, and you'd have to download updates from Itunes, which would of course be built in to the display.  An There would be nineteen Android displays, each of which would have overlays of extra functionality that the companies would put on to differentiate, so the Samsung display would be able to print out complex barista orders from verbal prompts, while the HTC display would do OCR, but only in Pig Latin, while the Nexus display would be clean, but in order to advance, you'd have to bring up three menus in series and tap six buttons in a prescribed order, any mistake in which would turn off bluetooth or phone the White House or something.  The Windows Phone displays would be blank.  Blackberry displays were available for about ten minutes, then were withdrawn because everybody said how lame they were.  Nokia's displays used actual stone tablts; they were rock solid, but unable to refresh in less than a geological age.
Oh, and the NSA has a secret fingers exploit that intercepts all content that goes to your display and shows it to an analyst in eight-dot visual braille on their HD displays.  Trouble is that what with the sequester and all, funding for the braille classes for NSA analysts got the chop, so no one knows what we're reading.
Oh, sorry, this was a serious discussion.  This is my brain on three days no sleep and suddenly having to buy a car.

2013-08-08 03:52:27

Thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

2013-08-08 04:40:42

Off the top of my head, I can think of maybe 6 or more projects that have no reason not to break open the braille technology market to something much less clunky, outdated and monopolized.
Senseg went silent after picking a CEO over a year ago, Tesla Touch appears to be just proof of concept, the Tactile Explorer appears to be just some novelty device for expos in Israel and occasionally India, and there are a few people in the US who start working on cheaper braille displays, then for one reason or another disappear into the ether (At least Aprone told us what put his on hold, which is better than can be said for any of the others I've come across)... I hear there's something nice coming out of Thailand, people weren't too excited about that braille phone coming out of India recently, and from the looks of it Apple and Google are fervently ignoring everyone and desperately trying to come up with something they can patent, regardless of whether or not it's anything resembling viable.

If, on the other hand, Apple or Google would just get over their SUPER CAPITALISM urges and license Senseg's Tixels, I wouldn't have to recreate all of the old 2D console games from the ground up. Give us a year with that, and it will almost definitely be adapted to braille.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2013-08-08 05:01:13

I've done some reading on some of the websites that discuss trying to make cheaper braille displays. Honestly, the problem is that a lot of these are just a small team of people, with no real financial backing. When you're trying to make a new product, you need the finances to make multiple prototypes, knowing many of them will fail. It seems that many of them have some prototypes, but then run out of money to keep the projects going. It'd be nice to see someone with some financial backing take an interest in this, but I won't hold my breath.

2013-08-08 05:04:38

Crowdfunding campaigns?
I'm sure some of the anecdotes in this thread, and a picture of a few of the displays we hold on to after they've suffered much damage for price reasons, could suffice as a short video.
If, you know, video-making were trivial when many of these clips would come from VI people.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2013-08-08 05:37:27

Kickstarter campaigns seem to do well, depending on how much a person gets the word out there.

2014-02-02 17:40:47

Yeah, braille has always been expensive, even though its so necessary. And people wonder why people rely on speech all the time? LOL, its crazy. Sure, the current way of making braille is expensive, but so was making huge computers in the 70's. Then microprocessors came along and made things cheaper and smaller. Problem is, even APH can't get rid of the high priced braille displays and such. Yeah, having android is cool, but few people will even want the BP18. Blind folks are so used to getting pieces of crap that when they hear of these "revolutionary devices" they just delete the email and move on, at least I do nowadays. The braille plus 18 doesn't even have a calculator app. How laughable is that? The word processor doesn't have a spell checker, the bp18 is still on android 2.3. And it still doesn't have NLS bard support, and can read only daisy books. No epub, not even text or rtf. And how many years has it been out? I'd say around 3 years. APH just can't move fast enough, even though it is one of the "big" blindness companies. They should at least let more programmers sign on and help, goodness! Its just, so stupid its funny!

Devin Prater
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2014-03-21 05:00:55

The products cost enough without them making you replace something that's been working fine.

Have a blessed day. 
Jennifer

2014-03-21 05:15:12

This does seem like the sort of problem where throwing money at it would help loads. The trouble is, such a minority market is not all that capable of summoning buckets of money.
Now, it is true that money is not the most necessary component, here; see Aprone's projects for an example. But innovations are much easier to make and build on when you have well-funded, well-connected teams who both care and have the required skills. And putting those together without the sorts of funds that go into mainstream technology is just plain hard.
But, eh, we'll see where things go.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2014-03-23 05:29:35

And it just makes me want to start screaming in rage all over again, stumbling across this topic. I payed for a pac mate bx420 out of my own pocket with SSI back pay, 2 and a half years and the device was unusable, not a single router key worked, the battery was crap and I could just go on and on, I'd like to smash what I have left of it over the head of each employee of freedom science fiction, that's about all its good for.

Stevie-3