2014-03-25 03:25:20

I don't know, 2 and a half years is a long time considering how most items, even mainstream ones, last these days.  The term "They didn't built them as they used to" come to mind as most people do not know the proper ways of handling products and avoiding them from self-destructing:  exampling being the many headphones I've gone through, and two laptops this past 2 years from hardware issues. 

    As well, your all expecting for these companies main-stream quality products when a.  Everyone tries to actively avoid paying these companies:  See the popularity of NVDA and people cracking Jaws and other paid readers, one source of income gone:  Preferring mainstream items over their products, deleting more income, and then not buying their products as their small group and funding cannot keep up with all the big companies.  As someone posted before:  You can only solve some problems by throwing money at it.  These guys are losing money with us moving on to newer, freer stuff while the remaining group complains and decides to drop supporting, further crippling the company. 

    But I guess there is no more need for independent accessibility companies.  From people being able to code and make many of the products they sold for cheap, all the stuff that most of the mainstream company include, and the fact we do not want to be separate from the mainstream:  we do not need these companies anymore.  People can argue we do but alas, the only advantages these companies have are slowly vanishing.

2014-03-25 12:42:24 (edited by paddy 2014-03-25 14:12:04)

Well, I have been at an exibition for new blind technology at our school, and they were showing me a device, which felt pretty empty and was easy to carry, even if it was some kinda big.
They told me this device has Windows7 installed and you can navigate only using 12 keys, you know, the braille display keys we have to type braille letters and spaces and new lines.
They told me it would cost 1900 Euros! "You would understand it if you would know what technology comes with it!", that's what they told me when I jumped up in surprise.

Don't actually wanna know how much a reparation would cost.
BTW, How to actually clean a braille display?

Also, a friend of mine told me that she wanted to get herself a daisy player, unfortunately the health insurance didn't want to invest the money in such a device.
Everytime when she tried to get a daisy book from any libraries for VIs, they allways told her "You definitely need a daisy player, otherwise it won't work".
So, some time later, she got an info disc which was in daisy format, however, she didn't notice that and inserts the CD into the CD-Player. And guess what, it worked perfectly!

So, do they really want us to buy a freakin daisy player for around 300 to 400 bucks, when we have daisy readers which are free of charge for the iPhone, laptop etc? That's totally pointless!

I heard of a receiver, dreambox is it's name, which should cost 1600 bucks but it is accessible. lol

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2014-03-25 18:15:30

Clean braille displays, with great difficulty. Sadly this is another great way to make money from the consumer.

Many DAISy discs use MP3; sometimes you can just use WinAmp. smile

Just myself, as usual.

2014-03-26 10:43:12 (edited by paddy 2014-03-27 10:14:49)

That's the point, media software or other devices like a CD-player care about the files they know, they don't care about the daisy script.

So how to clean a braille display ourself so we don't need to spent loads of money on that?
We just paid about 800€ so they repaired and cleaned my display.

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2014-03-26 13:04:36

LOL. My Joke Rehab counselor barely acknowledges the accessibility of the IPhone in its own right, let alone that with the right apps installed it could replace many if not all those uber spendy blindy products.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2014-03-26 21:11:29

@paddy: Yeah, but you do actually lose information by just playing it in a player. It works, that's cool, but really a DAISy player is required to give you all the same information. And the files may not be in the right order, necessarily.

There are free or cheap DAISy players out there, but sadly the DAISy Consortium is a closed organisation, so there aren't many, the spec is creaky, and various players do various things differently. We'd really like DAISy to be a proper standard that has a snowball's chance in hell of being adopted mainstream, I think.

Just myself, as usual.

2014-03-27 10:16:33

I've got a DAISY reader on my laptop, and it actually works the way I want it to.

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2014-03-30 09:33:36

Interesting topic, though to be honest this is another reason I can see braille going the way of the dinosaur unless it is made  more and cheaply compatible with  mainline information technology, and not spending over 1500 quid  rather than buying a laptop for a couple of hundred and banging nvda on it for nothing.

Whatever advantages  braille as a format might have (which is another debate entirely), they're not enough to warrent ten times the price over  speech software.

Similarly,  I've never really seen the point of Dazy as an audio format, indeed when the Rnib converted their stuff from old analogue casettes to Dazy (a convertion they made in 2005 after using the same technology sinse the 1950's), basically the only reason they used dazy was as a sop to the publication industry who didn't want their precious copywrite  violated  and so wanted the rnib's audio playable only on blind specific dazy players, aside from the fact such players are bloody huge and have the battery life of a pig, plus of course it doesn't stop you playing a dazy book in  your favourite mp3 player or just getting a dazy playing program either (dolphin used to give away a free one with versions of Supernova).

I can see the advantage of dazy converting directly from a text file  to a synth voice, albeit I don't know much about that process and don't particularly enjoy reading with a synth anyway, indeed if a cheap braille display alternative were developed reading E books is one of the things I'd want it for, although I'd still find it far slower and clunkier than reading in audio.

As I said, unless the  tactile display  technology changes how long braille and blind access companies will continue I'm not sure, though I  wouldn't be surprised if they hangon by the old method of convincing  governmental  agencies that they are the only way and that their prices are justified, and of course removing customer choice is sort of standard modern business practice these days.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-03-31 09:51:43

There's RTFC, which is actually a software to convert text into a special brl-format so braille printers can print it the way you want it to be printed. There's another tool in the software, which let's you convert maybe your own voice and some text into DAISY-format, or you just let a synth voice do all that stuff.
You may check it out at http://www.rtfc.eu.
However, this software is trial, but I don't know how much money they want.

Feel free to check my blog at
http://www.patrickdembinski.org
Aut enim do tibi, ut des, aut do, ut facias, aut facio, ut des, aut facio, ut facias.

2014-03-31 10:44:18

Well  I don't know how  expensive braille embossers are, though I suspect  quite a lot, heck,  on shear volume alone trying to print a book in braille would  be quite a task, and likely expensive on braille paper.

last I checked braille paper was about a pound for 100 sheets, ----- which isn't so bad accept that that is roughly  25 print pages, meaning that creating your average 200 page print book in braille would cost about  £8, aside from storage.

As I said I can see daisy convertion to synth directly from audio, albeit I've already seen programs like text  allowed that already convert to standard mp3 rather than daisy, though I've not particularly investigated that end of things  sinse Synth voice reading of serious material isn't something I'm a fan of.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-03-31 11:07:59

The only differences regarding to the daisy format and a normal audiobook in mp3 format are the following:
1: Liberies can put their own marc on the books to protect the copyright. That means if someone share some audiobooks in daisy, they can easily be cut.
2: The structure. Many books which are used for studies are structured in many advanced ways. That means you can navigate in the book down to navigate by sentences, which is very handy in many siturations. You can get daisy books with instructions on how to cook. Sorry I don't remember the english word for those kinds of books. smile In books like those, you can navigate through the book in many advanced ways, which is the great thing about daisy books. You can't do that on normal cd players or mp3 players. If you're listening to an audio book which isn't splitted up in parts like this, it wouldn't matter at all if you're using a daisy player or whatever other kind of mp3 playerr.

Regarding to cleaning a Braille display, that can be tricky, but it's doable.
Buy a bottle of air you can spray to clean things, sorry, don't remember what those are called, lol. You can use this to carefully stray fresh air on the pinns on the Braille display to hopefully remove all kinds of dust and other things from the display.
You can also use a clean fiber cloth, and carefully clean the display.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
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2014-03-31 11:31:27

It sounds like Braille Displays for $~500 are actually viable. While that's still more expensive than I'd like (a new monitor goes for like $200 or less, right? And those can do more than a 1or2 line braille display), it's so obviously superior to 4 or 5 digit prices I'm just kinda annoyed there hasn't been... like... a race-to-the-bottom price war, at least. And that everyone who actually tries to make one of these (Aprone, NBP) runs into so many awful "You're not a for-profit corporation in tight with the fed" obstacles it's just ridiculous.

If Google wanted to, they could solve the assistive technology lag/price problem inside a month. (Presumably so could Apple, but I'd actually trust Google's abilities better; too bad they're not even putting any effort into their accessibility API. -_- )

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
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    George... Don't do that.

2014-04-01 09:14:09

Well as to Daisy structure, it's the sort of thing I can see being useful for intensive study but not really if your just reading for pleasure, so it's sort of nice to have but not really worth the extra player or random program.

With the Id tags  thing, well that strikes me more as theory than practice.  these days pretty much anything with audio can be copied  either by directly wripping the audio or just  rerecording the thing, so as I said while  daisy might be a nice sop to the publication industry it doesn't make as much practical  difference in audio terms, heck I confess I have on occasion dedasified the mp3s out of a book and retagged them just because I'd rather  play then on my Iphone than either haul around a less than efficient dedicated daisy player or laptop.

Regarding Braille Cae, well 500 usd is certainly better than 1500, though I'm still not personally convinced given the amount of information  shown and the flexibility of most screen readers (including Nvda and voiceover).

Regarding companies, well I suspect a mainstream company won't do anything about a braille display given that it's advantages aren't obvious over speech and it's development would be more difficult unless the displaying of braille was a side product of technology that could be useful to sighted users.

For example, the reading aloud and speaking of Siri  on  Ios at least are bennificial to sighted users, and while Apple (and possibly Google), have gone above the call of duty, or at least legality in  the development of speech there is no denying it's not just! blind people that have talking phones.

I could in this way see a braille display as an application of say a more widely used tactile display for touch screen control. Such a display could for example have tactile buttons instead of keys and thus facilitate touch typing, as well as be able to use other forms of analogue controls like sliders and  roaters  which would be of  bennifit to sighted  users.

Then again, sinse most sighted people considder touch in the same sensory rank as taste and smell, ie a background to life that can at most be used just for it's pleasurable input and not for gathering information about the world, whether   mainstream companies would considder the advantages of a tactile display to sighted users  enough to  actually develop one is another question entirely, though as I said unless either that happens or braille  displays become very very cheap I'm not sure how long braille itself will continue to be viable at all, and the less  braille reading or writing is used, the less call there will be for devices like packmates and such, heck there are already  Vi kids in school who are not being taught  to read braille sinse it's demed as unnecessary.

Whether it is! unnecessary is another debate entirely, but certainly  the  bennifits to using braille aren't helped by it's uneasy  relationship with modern technology, still less the exclusivity and money grubbing  of companies that produce braille specific devices.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2014-04-01 13:42:43

About the only time I use my PACMate is when I want to type something up on a device with a braille display attached. Joke rehab hasn't treeted me quite as bad as some, but they are a joke when it comes to getting needed stuff at times. As for the PM, the speech only unit is around $995 now, or at least it was when I last checked. I looked around and from what I can tell, if you want a note taker wit 40 cell display for the cheepest price out there, then you will most likely go with the PM. Of cource you are most likely get a device with no promiss of upgrades. LOL. I also took a look at WindowsEyes and from what I can tell, you can get WE for a pretty good price if you already have office 2010 or later and don't mind no support and if you don't mind using SAPI for your speech. LOL. It seems like GW is watching things alot closer than FS. LOL. Just saying.

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
DropBox Referral

2014-04-03 12:11:18 (edited by Sebby 2014-04-03 12:22:13)

Well, since we're on it, I just happened to buy a couple of gas duster cans, to clean out my optical drive (haven't tested the effect yet), and used the opportunity to try cleaning my braille display with it.

Quite apart from the dangers (the fluid boils at room temperature, which is the weirdest sensation you can possibly experience! smile but which produces freezing colds) the difficulty is dust removal, not merely dislocation. So the process certainly made the display cleaner, but not good-as-new clean (pins would stay stuck up until pressed down). Still, worth a shot, eh?

As to a mainstream braille display, I wouldn't trust Google to design a kettle without making it into an ad-serving platform that fails to make boiling water, much less a braille display that's any good. As Dark alluded to, the only way this is going to work is if there's a clear need for some general-purpose tactile display that provides haptic output, that could be repurposed for braille. Apple might realise this, but they'd also put the cost up and try to encourage blind readers to read a non-standard print form that has no application outside of Apple. big_smile

Just myself, as usual.