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@DracoSelene89,
I've no idea why either, as that certainly isn't my goal or my intention whatsoever. If I had reason to believe this was my responsibility in life, I'd probably quit, given that I would have found the one thing God himself was not capable of or chose not to do, and in so choosing, would as far as I'm concerned, declare himself an unloving god.
true you can't change lgbt people. but there are programs out there such as the Courage RC program that use psychological and other proven therapies. They have had some success I heard. How much success I don't know. Also the whole lgbt thing is quite new as far as our culture and societies as a whole... Its really relatively new. Its like back in the 1950s people smoked and stuff. They did not know smoking caused cancer, has radioactive stuff in it and so on. Now these days we know lots more. So over time as society evolves and learns more, we will learn more to help lgbt people. Lgbt people should be accepted as far as the fact they are people just like straight people are people. But their lifestyle should not be pushed on the rest of us through movies, cultural trends, etcetera. And we should be studying to learn how best to help them with their gender disphoria disorder while we love them and care for them as the people they are. I had an english teacher in school who was gay, best teacher I ever had. He was one of my favorites.
So you're an advocate of conversion therapy. Good to know. You're also wrong. If you want to help LGBTQ people, quit trying to find ways to change LGBTQ people. Seriously, and folks wonder why there's a movement to label religion in general and Christianity in particular as a mental illness. The difference between being LGBTQ and being Christian is you weren't born Christian.
One question I'd personally like to know the answer to, is even assuming that you could! stop a person being gay, ---- which I'm afraid is a fairly huge assumption in and of itself and not one with any scientific basis, why should you?
What exactly is wrong with being gay anyway? As my dad who was a psychiatric nurse for most of his working life, it doesn't matter if a person believes they're napoleon if they're perfect happy believing their napoleon and aren't doing anyone any harm, and generally people who are gay are a lot more together and reasonable than people who believe they're napoleon 
.
Yes I'm sure people who don't like gay people can find evidence in the bible to support their favourite prejudice, but you can find evidence in the bible to support a hole bunch of prejudices if you are inclined to, anti-Semitism, racism, sexism, discrimination against the disabled etc.
The Nazis were very keen on certain bible passages in support of their own beliefs.
This isn't to bash the Bible specifically, just to note that just because someone with a certain belief structure has used the bible to prop up their own prejudice, doesn't give that prejudice any more force than any other forms of prejudice.
Btw my lady and I read a fascinating book recently entitled "rescuing the bible from fundamentalism" by Bishop John Shelby Spong, who maintained the idea of the bible as divine revelationbut with the idea that it was a revelation explained, interpreted and written with the language and attitudes of people at the time, what he said about the history of how various parts of the Bible were written was quite fascinating.
Spong even suggested fairly convincingly that St. Paul may have been gay, which of course doesn'tthe importance about what the man said (wethe "love is patient" passage at our wedding, biblical passage I've always found beautiful
Appologies if I've shocked anyone here, to me at least the idea of suggesting anything wrong with someone being gay is rather like the idea of suggesting there's something wrong with someone being over six foot tall, it just genuinely doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe this is a cultural thing, as I said I find a lot of American attitudes rather extreme, since generally in Britain being gay isn't a big deal and it's quite accepted that a man can be gay without prancing around in a pink hooler skirt and a woman can be gay without people assuming she wears leathers and carries a whip.
This isnt' to say that homophobia doesn't exist in Britain, but it's by no means common place or held as universal, just as most people who are! gay don't have to be particularly aggressive about identity, indeed when I was growing up it was just held as a fairly standard fact that my dad's friend who we refered to as "aunty carol" was married (in all senses but the civil), to "aunty maggy"
and we really didn't think much about it .
So the hole idea of anyone! being anti gay, or especially trying to prop it up with any kind of backing is more than a little alien to me.
See, I don't even believe in changing LGBT or LGBTQ people, not sure what the actual term is. Let them be them. Heck, they're not trying to convert me from my beliefs to theirs. I don't have a problem with people believing that - why should I? It doesn't affect me. In post 30 odd something, I said I didn't think it was okay, I didn't accept it, I wouldn't practice it, which is true. However, that's even how they feel about certain things, namely Christianity as it has been pictured - where the members seem to think it's their duty to convert others from their own belief systems. We as individuals all have preferences, mindsets, and beliefs we either adapt or are raised in and accept. As for mine? I believe in Christianity, but am against the pushy Christians, and frankly don't care what people think about that. I can get along with and respect and even befriend people of other belief systems, even if I refuse to partake. I will not associate with members of those systems that believe I should pay for, adopt, fully accept, or put aside my own ways to accommodate their lifestyle/beliefs/morals. That quality, which is at least somewhat present in every group and or tribe there is, can be referred to as extremism or self-entitlement.
@Dark see, I think it's okay if a group sets standards for its members and or those who hold a leadership role, but that's as far as it should go. If, say, a Christian church does not want a gay preacher, while that is discriminatory, it is simply a part of their belief, and all one can do is walk away -- if they do try to change that church to accept them, they are only doing exactly what they'd be condemning the church for. However, people tend to take this principle way too far, thinking they should try to conform the whole world, because suddenly the world becomes theirs! because some book or some principle or some slogan/motto dictates that.
true you can't change lgbt people. but there are programs out there such as the Courage RC program that use psychological and other proven therapies. They have had some success I heard. How much success I don't know. Also the whole lgbt thing is quite new as far as our culture and societies as a whole... Its really relatively new. Its like back in the 1950s people smoked and stuff. They did not know smoking caused cancer, has radioactive stuff in it and so on. Now these days we know lots more. So over time as society evolves and learns more, we will learn more to help lgbt people. Lgbt people should be accepted as far as the fact they are people just like straight people are people. But their lifestyle should not be pushed on the rest of us through movies, cultural trends, etcetera. And we should be studying to learn how best to help them with their gender disphoria disorder while we love them and care for them as the people they are. I had an english teacher in school who was gay, best teacher I ever had. He was one of my favorites.
Okay here we go....
1. The cigarette industry knowingly hid data that showed smoking caused cancer for decades, and funneled millions into marketing int he US alone. There was a very good documentary on it that I can't remember the name of, IIRC but a day reading about the antics of the tobacco firms will make you relaize how wrong your assumption was that people didn't know the dangers. See also: Asbestos, lead, (lead (in gasoline) and so forth.
Comparing LGBTQ to the 1950s cigarette industry is a big, big stretch given the LGBTQ are not funded by multinational companies who are knowingly and dliebaretly hiding data that could impact their profits. At least, not funded that we know of.
And....actually, there's historical evidence that pre-Christian cultures were more accepting of same sex relationships, and some (disputed) evidence about early Christianity and its stance on same sex relationships.
Ancient cultures? Greece, for one.
2.You state LGBTQ lifestyles should not be pushed on the rest of us, but nor should religions, it is the same argument, if X is not allowed to be pushed on us and can be categorized as a lifestyle, then Y is too. Yes, I'm aware it's a weak argument, but let me explain....
Religion is as much a lifestyle, as anything else. That sounds insane on the surface but just think about it. It is a way of life, a lifestyle. Just as smoking, or drinking, or LGBT is a lifestyle. Therefore....it should not be pushed on anyone, in the event that LGBT lifestyles should not be pushed on people either, you cannot say X should not be pushed on people but Y and Z can be, that is absolutely targeting one demographic and not others.
@Dark: I should go get that book, I know what to read next, it actually sounds genuinely interesting, when I'm next near a a digital book store I'll grab that book and fire up NVDA and sit back and listen.
Fact: if each and every single one of us has free will, it does not fall upon any single one of us to impose our will on anyone else. end of story.
Regarding if you are born LGBT or not:
If you know that you're not LGBT for sure, how can you then talk like if you know if people are born LGBT or not?
I tell you: People can be born LGBT the same way as you are born strait, regarding to sexual stuff. Being strait is normal in your world, just like other things are normal in a LGBT persons world. Don't ask me to talk about sex. A lot of people would be offended for sure. 
Regarding religion and LGBT: I don't get offended at all. But it feels like I'm living in an other world than many other people who have wrote comments in this topic. It feels like I'm coming from a part of the world, where LGBT people are being accepted as they are. They have a normal life just like everyone else, without all people knowing about their sexuality.
Then there are people from other parts of the world, I don't care about where you come from. That doesn't matter. But people who, in my opinion, keep talk about LGBT people, like if they are wrong people, like they were animals. They are normal people, just like you. They don't care a damn about what religion they have. This is only people who don't get what LGBT really is about who keep talking about religion, and talk about changing people.
This topic clearly demonstrates that some people just don't get that, which I of course accept but just don't understand. Therefore my conclusion is: I'm from a totally different part of the world, where people are just being accepted no matter who you are...
For this reason, I don't have anything else to say than I already have said so far in this topic. It's so difficult for me to understand why people just won't accept other people as they are, but again, that leads me to my conclusion...
I *did not* write the below post, and none of the other posts that I apparently have written today.
joshknnd1982 wrote:true you can't change lgbt people. but there are programs out there such as the Courage RC program that use psychological and other proven therapies. They have had some success I heard. How much success I don't know. Also the whole lgbt thing is quite new as far as our culture and societies as a whole... Its really relatively new. Its like back in the 1950s people smoked and stuff. They did not know smoking caused cancer, has radioactive stuff in it and so on. Now these days we know lots more. So over time as society evolves and learns more, we will learn more to help lgbt people. Lgbt people should be accepted as far as the fact they are people just like straight people are people. But their lifestyle should not be pushed on the rest of us through movies, cultural trends, etcetera. And we should be studying to learn how best to help them with their gender disphoria disorder while we love them and care for them as the people they are. I had an english teacher in school who was gay, best teacher I ever had. He was one of my favorites.
Okay here we go....
1. The cigarette industry knowingly hid data that showed smoking caused cancer for decades, and funneled millions into marketing int he US alone. There was a very good documentary on it that I can't remember the name of, IIRC but a day reading about the antics of the tobacco firms will make you relaize how wrong your assumption was that people didn't know the dangers. See also: Asbestos, lead, (lead (in gasoline) and so forth.
Comparing LGBTQ to the 1950s cigarette industry is a big, big stretch given the LGBTQ are not funded by multinational companies who are knowingly and dliebaretly hiding data that could impact their profits. At least, not funded that we know of.
And....actually, there's historical evidence that pre-Christian cultures were more accepting of same sex relationships, and some (disputed) evidence about early Christianity and its stance on same sex relationships.
Ancient cultures? Greece, for one.
2.You state LGBTQ lifestyles should not be pushed on the rest of us, but nor should religions, it is the same argument, if X is not allowed to be pushed on us and can be categorized as a lifestyle, then Y is too. Yes, I'm aware it's a weak argument, but let me explain....
Religion is as much a lifestyle, as anything else. That sounds insane on the surface but just think about it. It is a way of life, a lifestyle. Just as smoking, or drinking, or LGBT is a lifestyle. Therefore....it should not be pushed on anyone, in the event that LGBT lifestyles should not be pushed on people either, you cannot say X should not be pushed on people but Y and Z can be, that is absolutely targeting one demographic and not others.
@Dark: I should go get that book, I know what to read next, it actually sounds genuinely interesting, when I'm next near a a digital book store I'll grab that book and fire up NVDA and sit back and listen.
Love you San Antonio Texas... I just wanhted to clear that up for anyone who might not know it. Nothing else to see here, peoples, carry on. :d
@208 I agree, and I think everyone would be a lot happier if they spent less time meddling in others' opinions and beliefs and trying to change them. But alas, it seems it will always be like this for some people:
Non religious bash religion and/or complain about it even though they're not a part of it, picking it apart etc...
Religious bash non religious for not following the rules of their God/book/deities of worship even though others' opinions on that front have no consequence to them what soever...
And then there will be debates of "You should accept everyone" with hypocrisy in the mix such as the condemnation of those who don't do that...
(I and a lot of everyone else here have done this, but notice how I put myself first in the accusation because I'm the only one I can say for sure), because no discussion like this to my knowledge can be held which is completely devoid of any and all hypocrisy.
On a brighter note, @Nocternous 210, then? You mean the area code that solicitors keep calling me from in the middle of my school days? Yeah that.
there is no scientific proof people are born lgbt. Again it is too new. People have various ideas on what may cause it but no concrete evidence as far as I know. Also from what I heard not even the seemingly most proven courage-rc program has 100% success. And there may be circumstances in which lgbt people just cannot attend such programs. It's too far away, not enough money, and others. They are people, too, and should be trated with love and respect like everyone else. Only thing I'm saying is their unhealthy lifestyles should not be forced on the rest of the culture through tv, education, and other media. But I do think people who are lgbt have some sort of disorder, perhaps its mental, and should get help if possible. How successful that help will be depends on the person themselves and the quality of the professional help given. Also more study is needed to learn more about the how's and why's of lgbt disorders and that will take time, perhaps decades if not longer, who knows.
the problem with people and the bible, I think, is they take stuff out of context and use it to support well anything they want. A lot of this the bible supports this and that and the other thing could be cleared up by people if they are so inclined and have the time and resources to do it... to research the original 2000 plus year old authors behind the bible. What did the original authors intend to say when they wrote it? and keep in mind most of us are reading translations from their original languages and there's bound to be translation errors. And there is different writing styles in the bible as well, which if people do research would yield more about the original author's intent in writing that particular book in a particular manner. Its a lot to study. But for me I'm interested in playing around with computer, phones, and tablet OS's. Once in awhile I'll read catholic christian books and listen to EWTN radio get information off of there. Then I get tired of it and take a few months break. Now I'm into watching all my favorite power rangers seasons on netflix. I never watched lost galaxy in its entirety and it was quite interesting. Now to skip past 3 more seasons and watch it when disney sort of took over and they moved production to New Zealand with Ninja storm, through rpm. So I'll watch some of those I haven't seen or haven't seen in awhile. Maybe a separate power rangers topic is in order? I read the book of the 2017 movie. It was ok. I'll buy the movie and see how it is when its out on itunes for the apple tv box. So far the ninja steel season is quite good. And I'd love to see a season of pr where they say what happened to Rita and Lord Zedd after they got turned back to the good side at the end of pr in space. Ok so Rita's the mystic mother in pr mystic force. How did that occur though.? And what happened to lord zedd? Oh it'd be so cool to have a season where a team of power rangers maybe finds some old cogs remnants of the machine empire. They reprogram the cogs, and the tecky person on the team makes more cogs and the cogs help the rangers fight the forces of evil along with some other machine empire leftovers.
@dark, you shouldn't stop anyone from being lgbt. But if an lgbt person is interested in not being lgbt anymore you could point them in the direction of such programs such as courage-rc. but trying to forceably stop someone from being lgbt I can't even see how that would work because it would not work at all.
So let me see if I've got this straight. Your argument is there's no scientific proof, while supporting an entity (the church) which has rejected science on basic principle at just about every opportunity? Try another one, if ya please.
Also, and just for the record, there have been gay people for as long as there have been people. The difference is in 1817 you were an idiot if you admitted to it, whereas in 2017 you're only an idiot if you admit to it in Iran or backwards places like that. The reason for it is the same. (Source)
The problem I have with any structured religion is:
It's a book. It's a compilation of texts written by the hand of man, over the course of generations and generations, being subjected to translation errors, forgeries and no doubt insertions of the personal views of various authors along the way. So you don't know what you're reading, you don't know who wrote it, you don't know when it was written and you don't know which parts are original and which parts aren't.
I don't dislike people for being religious, but I do *personally* frown upon the idea of condemning a big group of people based on unsubstantiated, subjective and bias clames from a book which we know has been tampered with in various ways over the course of history.
In addition, I respectfully ask the following question (not to start any kind of flame war, but rather as food for thought):
If god, the almighty divine creator disapproves of gays/lezbions/transgender etc, then why does he deliberately mass produce things he doesn't like? Why does he create hundreds of species besides humans which feature a homosexual demographic?
To my way of thinking, deliberately creating a human being in such a way as to subject them to a life of ridicule and persecution, and to subject yourself to a feeling of distaine towards their very existance is sadomasochistic. At least that's what we'd call a human who enjoys both being hurt and hurting others, and we'd consider them to be mentally ill. If that's who god is, then god isn't loving and sertainly doesn't create each and every one of us in his image.
I also feel that it would be hypocritical of me to persecute an entire demographic just for the sake of persecuting, when I myself belong to a minority group (as in the blindness community) which experiences (and resents) baseless persecution. An exclusively conservative first world would show no mercy towards any single one of us who is a member of this collective community. There'd be no billions spent to provide us with screen readers, accessible transit, income support, etc etc etc.
To anyone interested I can recommend Shelby Spong's book, though it is rather academic in parts. What I particularly liked is where in places he appeared to be going a little too far down the "well god is whatever you think god is" route he usually pulled it back to a real form of historical experience and the actual fact that Jesus lived and the affect that had on those around him, and in turn what and relevance that has for people today.
The book is available from Bard (we got it on my lady's bard account),for those who have access to that service.
@Josh, usually people who identify themselves as gay or lgbt, or heck are just quite happy with someone of the other gender would regard attempts to "fix" rather the ways a dark skinned person would regard attempts to bleach their skin, indeed there are many stories of gay people who have severe difficulty in self discovery just because! of the stigma attacked in some quarters. I always find it odd when people talk about being gay as though it is a "choice" or a "lifestyle" rather than something which someone actually is the denial of which is usually pretty bad for the person in question, ---- eg my poor Aunty Carol had considerable problems with her male husband before things got rather too muchshe admitted that she was attracted to women.
I've even heard nastier stories of partners getting together with a man woman who they are not attracted to and being literally raped by the other person since they have no involvement over what is happening.
Another thing I will say is that the association here between "Christian!" and "homophobic" seems a little unfair here and possibly a bit culturally biased to more extreme places, ---- such as amaerica.
Most Christians I've grown up with are quite okay with the idea that being gay is not a problem, indeed I'll say the Anglican church recently got a lot of flack in the popular medier, and from many members for going back on their promise to allow gay priests.
I've met several gay Christians, indeed a good friend of mine even had his local vicar offer a prayer for him and his husband, and apparently said vicar was quite pissed off at the church for not! allowing him to perform a full marriage ceremony for my friend and his husband.
By the same token, I have met some very stupid, ignorant people (sadly my uncle is one), who object to people being gay not for any biblical reason, just because it is "unnatural", or "not right" or some sort of other unreasoning crap .
OK, excuse me guys but honestly, reading most messages here and in other parts of the forum, its just really impossible not to chime in. Believe me, it is imposible for me to stay quiet, because of what I'm, reading.
Its a lot, so I'm not able to recall absolutely everything. However, there are 2 things I completely agree with Joshk1982: There is not a scientific proof that a person can be born gay, and there will never be one; why? because God created male and female, as I've been enfaticly saying through out this now resurrected topic. That answers the question of, what's wrong with being gay? clearly everything's wrong, if you take some time to read Romans chapter 1 with an opened heart, of course you'll find out why; It breaks my heart to see how some people who call themselves christians are treating all these things, seeing everything as something very normal.
And now that I mentioned Romans chapter 1, this leads us to the bible subject, and Joshk1982 again said something quite right. Although, Josh, it is not necessary to study the greek/hebrew manuscripts though it can help of course, but you can still see the context of each single passage by studying the scriptures being guided by the same holy Spirit that inspired them. It is true that somebody can twist the scriptures to support anti cemitism, racism, to say something against disabled people and so on, and even we see pastor that of course use some passages in order to manipulate people and make them give their money almost blindly. However making a correct bible study you can see that absolutly nothing I mentioned, I repeat absolutely nothing is supported by God's word. So someone might ask: Then what about homosexuality? well ladies and gentleman, the news I have for you is that you'll never find a single passage in the bible that can be twisted or taken to support homosexuality.
So: is the bible old fassioned? no, it is still for today and will never pass. Has it been altered? Although it is true that many men and women in our history have created corrupted versions or translations adding and removing here and there, God has always been keeping is word intact, even in the days when reading the bible is prohibited and many bibles were burned by, the catholic church.
So, God's word was written by men, of course, but these men were inspired by God. These men were not writing just writing a simple novel or a work of fiction, this men were writing the in deniable work of God, starting from the creation of this world and finishing with the last Amen in the book of revelation, after Jesus Christ finished his ministry and was glorify in the glory with the father. These men never contradict themselves, and the history of humanity absolutely declares that what's written in that book, is true
@andy93, so why does God create stuff that he can't stomach? so he can subject himself to torment over the relentless existence of abominable things (that he created) while also subjecting said abominable things to torment over being regarded as abominable?
I can't help but see that as sadomasochism, a characteristic which when observed in humans is regarded as a mental illness.
There's more proof that homosexuality is something you're born with than there is proof of anything else. All you need is the fact that humans are far from the only species of sexual being to feature homosexuality, and many of said beings are too primitive to make decisions based on anything other than instinct or acute stimuli. Can you honestly tell me that insects make a choice to have a same sex mate, based on a calculated desire to commit a wanton act of immorality? Sorry to say it, but being gay is just as natural as being blind.
As to your statement that a group of men, over the course
of generations, passed down a mass of stories from generation to generation and managed to write it down and translate it into multiple languages perfectly with absolutely no exaduration, misrecollection, misinterpretation or forgery? Proving that would be impossible. Studies show that when you pass a story along a chain of just a few people, it mutates -- we're emotional imperfect humans, not robots which are completely objective with perfect memory.
So, I respectfully challenge you to consider --and answer-- the above question --not with emotions, but with logic-- why does God continue to create stuff that he himself hates, for the soul purpose of subjecting it to hatred and himself to torment over the existence of "sin"?
Moderation!
@Andy your entitled to your beliefs, but saying "everything's wrong with being gay" is getting dangerously close to homophobia.
how would you like it if someone said "everything is wrong with being Christian" or "everything is wrong with being blind"
Such things directly go against site policy.
Btw, this isnt' to say someone cannot believe what they want and even express those beliefs so long as it is done in a way which shows respect to those who do not share them and explains the beliefs themselves rather than denigrating those who disagree,
eg a statement such as "I believe being gay is contrary to the bible because" would be okay.
As this is manifestly an emotive subject I'll ask everyone to please stay calm, which indeed people have been doing for the most part.
I do think people who are lgbt have some sort of disorder, perhaps its mental, and should get help if possible.
Interesting comment. So, please tell me: How should LGBT people get help?
I think people who don't get what LGBT is about does have a kind of disorder, properly mental, and should get some help if possible. Why? Because they:
1: Don't get the fact that people are individuel. That means: Because you feel something or have your own opinions on something, that doesn't mean other people are feeling or thinking the same. So saying that LGBT people must have some kind of disorder is the same like not getting the fact that people are different, without having a disorder or any kind of mental issues.
2: Don't get the fact that the only difference between you and LGBT people is the sexuality, and nothing more. There is no scientific proof that you are disordered or have any kind of mental issues just because your sexuality is different.
Andy93s comment just proves that my conclusion is totally true. His comments are so strong, so I start to think that he are trying to hide that he really is a LGBT guy. I mean, what else is the point for this extreme need of constantly telling people that they are wrong, and it is only your arguments and points which is the truth?
I tell you, many people are doing this, just to hide that they are gay, lesbian or trans. They are doing their best to tell other people how wrong it is, and tell people that they are totally against it.
Then, suddenly, they can't hold it back anymore, and they start to change... They fail to realize that they are being accepted, and always has been accepted by family and friends, no matter their sexuality.
OK, there are too many things I'd like to say right now, but unfortunately I can't do to the fact that I'm at a break right now, about to start working. Therefore, 2 or 3 things.
@SLJ: I'd like to ask you quite respectfully to watch out what you're saying about me, you don't know me. Assuming that I could be an LGBT guy based on some sort of weird conclusion is not right, and to say less I'm feeling offended right now. If I am saying that homosexuality goes against God's creation is because in fact I completely believe it in my heart, not because I'm gay. If you guys have annalized my posts discussing these things, I am the person who believes that there is no neutral points, the good is good and the bad is bad, not half good or half bad, and that's why I even say that it breaks my heart to see how many so called christians here take all these matters as something that is completely part of us.
@dark: as far as I know, homofobia is the aversion to these tipe of people. I have always clarified that I don't hate them, I do not feel like having an extreme hatrid twards them, so that does not qualifies me as a homofobic person. However I keep saying that everything is wrong with being gay, cuzz that's not the way everything was created. It is important to know that God loves sinners, but not their sin.
If, however, saying that being gay is wrong completely goes against ag.net policies, feel free to ban me then. I am not gonna stop defending the truth, and I'm not planning to change it in order to adjust myself to the site rules; of course I feel total respect twards Dark and all of you mods, however if again I'm gonna get removed out of this site because of what I'm saying, feel free to do so then. My conscience does not accuses me of disrespecting anybody, I'm doing everything as clean and as human as possible.
If this is my last post here then, good bie to all, have not too many friends here, but this has always been my place to take a look at new things whenever I feel like it.
Thanks, Andres
It should be known that just as it is not okay to generalize LGBT and other groups of people in terms of belief, outlook, attitude, and prospective, it cannot be said that all Christians believe that God is a wrathful condemner who believes that everyone is going to Hell who does not live a certain way.
Maybe Andie was unclear in his points, or maybe that's his belief, but here is what I was always taught as a Christian. (Note: this is not a preaching, this is not an implication, this is not any kind of dictum. It is simply an overview of what I was taught, in an attempt to clear things up)
I was taught that if you believe and accept Jesus Christ in your heart, knowing 100% that he is your savior and that he died for you and believing in it completely, you would be going to Heaven. This process is called getting saved.
People are getting it at least somewhat right according to what I've been taught - sin is everything that God does not approve of, but sin is not what sends you straight down to hell. "Oh, no, you thief! You just shoplifted? Well, now you'll burn in hell forever unless you get on your knees and admit for an hour to God how much of a filthy lowlife you are!"... no, that's not how it works. If you were saved, the process I described above, you'd still be going to Heaven even though you sinned.
God loves man, and recognizes that he will sin. That is the whole basis of what he died for, as it says in the Bible. It is not sin that will get you sent to Hell, but complete and total rejection of him.
That said, I did not provide that outline so we could spark up a debate about it, though I'm obviously not telling you not to. I provided that simply to prove the point that not all Christians are homophobic sin hating hypocrites who love a God who seems itchy on the trigger finger. Also, I know that no one implied this about all Christians, that is to say they did not use the word "all" all the time, but they said "Christians". Not all of them put the word "some" before that.
As for me, I will continue to believe in that God and the procedures he set for me to go to Heaven. I will also continue to accept LGBT and Atheist groups as they are, and I will continue to be myself. Not because I think I'm better than anyone, not because I feel like I have all the answers, but because I'm not a "Christian" who believes in one way or the highway for us all, and expects everyone to follow suit with me. Does that make me bad? Does it make me not a proper Christian?
Only my death will tell, I guess.
But, Dwarfer, that's certainly how some* Christians view it, i.e. sin, burn in hellfire forevermore. Certainly that's not the case for all Christians or denominations, but there are definitely those who equate sin with an instant ticket to dinner with Satan (nd now I'm curious how a dinner with Satan would go....), just as there's those who think if you do X then Y happens in other faiths or walks of life.
Personally* I tend to find it's the born again Christians in some areas who take the pushiness and condemning up to 11, it seems to be linked to certain parts of the US and the world. That being said....there als, and I am being very careful how I word the next bit, there seems to at least in some circles, be a stereotype of black preachers being more aggressive and pushy in trying to 'save' everyone (and note the air quotes) by converting them, and then claiming they are doing what God wants...which is a fallacy because none of them know precisely what God wants at any given second.
My next point....is this:
The Bible was written approx. 2,000 years ago. Whoever wrote it had no way of knowing how the world would be in 2017, let alone 1017, the only thing they could do was guess and project how they wanted the world to be in their writings. and, for a number of reasons, they got it wrong as far as modern society goes. Not that modern society is a bad thing.
@Andy: You are saying there's no middle ground in your beliefs, yet from my religious studies classes I remember most denominations teach accepting and love thy neighbor and to turn the other cheek, unless it's a firebrand preacher spouting that if oyu do not believe in this exact version of the religion you are a sinner and going to Hell for this, this, this, this and this. Which in itself can, if interpreted right, be called into question as a sin.
That's the point, the Bible is a collection of books that were translated from one language to another. It was not translated flawlessly to begin with, and I am fairly sure that personal agendas crept in and crept through the writings. I do wonder if with each reprint or version, where were changes made however from...say...a Gideon to a King James version.
@Andi93, a few things:
1. Gay is not how things were created? really? It exists in the jungle, of all places. It exists in populations of such things as primitive and natural as insects.
Are birds and bees sinners, when their brains are far too primitive to comprehend much beyond how to seek food and respond to instinct/acute stimuli (fight or flight, etc)?
Are you afrade of knowledge because it would challenge the norms that shaped your upbringing?
If not, I challenge you to check this out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexua … in_animals
It talks about hormones and genes in species such as the common fruit fly.
So why would a loving god punish someone for their genetics, brain structure or prenatal exposure to hormones, when he himself made a conscious choice to set them on that course of development? Doesn't that sound just a little megalomanic? Kind of like how he punished the world for eternity because two people were tricked into eating the wrong piece of fruit? (spoiler: he scripted that event).
2. God loves the sinner, not the sin-that's reasonable, except it poses the same question. Why would god define something as sin, only to create lives on a collision course with it and no means of changing trajectory? That sounds a kin to someone who hates violence inventing a new weapon of mass distruction, by virtue of free will, so he can live with guilt over his invention and so others can suffer the consequences of it. That's sadomasochistic.
I fully respect differences of opinion. but I think it's disingenuous to outright call people bad -- just because your book of choice says they are-- and then dodge legitimate questions and take offence to opposition without being able to counter their points.
Lastly, to something being either good or bad:
God says that judgement is his duty alone, does he not?
Therefore, according to your own rules:
*homosexuality is bad because the bible says so,
*taking God's job into your own hands is bad because the bible says so,
*therefore, because any act has to be either exclusively good or exclusively bad, your actions must be, exclusively bad?
For the record: I'm not saying you're a bad person. but you contradict your own rules, suggesting that you are yourself above god's law and the rest of the world isn't.
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