2024-03-25 17:36:50

I don't really find the pricing for Framework to be that bad, particularly if you go for the DIY configurations. It's cheaper than Macs, the Dell XPS, etc. Besides, having a replaceable battery, motherboard, RAM, and SSD is super useful. If I want to get another CPU in 5 or 10 years, all I need to do is replace the board, CPU, and RAM which is cheaper than buying a new laptop. I take issue with System76 pricing, but I'm mainly interested in running Windows, and these may not be the best for that. What does the lack of ACPI support in Windows mean in the real world? Does it fail to stop charging the battery? I could imagine that might become a problem.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2024-03-25 19:13:01

@26, no, it doesn't. Charge thresholds just allow you to tell the firmware/embedded controller "Hey, don't charge the battery if it would be beyond this percent" (obviously with 100 being the maximum). It in no way affects hibernation/sleep/charging/etc.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2024-03-26 00:27:34

23, but in later posts you said  that this machine lacks acpi support in Windows. That is a huge deal, you could damage your battery over time, and you couldn't have optimized power profiles, or ability to set charging levels. That isn't something minor.  For gaming, or for desktop replacement laptops, the gap for desktop and laptop for CPU isn't nearly as much as it used to be, and those control panels with very fine grained options can be accessible. Lenovo for example has a very accessible control center, and people on here say Asus and Eluktronics control center is as well.  Though the Eluktronics version on this machine isn't.
26, I seriously doubt it would be cheaper to replace the board, CPU etc.  You'd replace ram, SSD, GPU if you  had one, ports, might as well buy a new computer, and would be cheaper.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2024-03-26 01:32:48

You can get upgrade kits and replacement boards at cheaper prices from the marketplace. The ability to replace or switch ports is also very useful. The nice thing about Framework is that you can buy the basic components to get a functional computer if your budget is low, then upgrade and expand over time. I agree the pre-built Framework is too expensive, and what you get for that money is horrible, hence why I recommend purchasing the parts and assembling it.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2024-03-26 04:28:33

I don't need to replace components. I don't need a Linux first laptop. I am not sure how to put it any other way, but I was wondering if there was a laptop that is deacent specks that works well with Windows and Linux?

2024-03-26 04:38:09

What's your ideal price range? Linux should run quite well on almost anything, as long as it isn't a total piece of junk. Stay away from Intel Pentium and Celeron machines.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2024-03-26 04:53:40

@28, You don't replace ports on a Framework.
They have expansion cards that connect to USB C ports on the machine, so you can swap out any port you want whenever you want.
Need an HDMI port? Just unplug one of your USBs and insert the HDMI expansion.
Need your charger to be on the right? Just swap the USB-C card to the other side.
The nice thing about Framework PCs is that you can truly make them yours, and they can change as your needs do.
I do feel like it's a lot of money, but like I said earlier they seem like a good investment when you look at everything you get.

2024-03-26 05:16:04

Re; price: it's a return vs. investment thing. Sure, you can buy a cheap business laptop. The problem is, every time it starts going bad, before long you're gonna be buying a new laptop because you can't replace the parts on the one you've got. This means that, while you're paying less up front, you are paying more in the long term, which actually makes your financial situation worse.

Re; native Windows drivers: Believe me, you do not want a computer with "native Windows drivers". Pretty much any computer you can think of supports Windows just fine without special drivers. How do I know? I've had to fresh install Windows before, and you don't get those special drivers when doing a fresh install if you have to wipe the drive. Usually these "special drivers", best case scenario, give you features that are sort of cool, but you really don't need them. Worst case scenario, they're bloatware that only really serves to slow down the computer. Plus, I'm sure brand names probably install telemetry tools on their machines by default as well nowadays. At any rate, there's nothing stopping them. Microsoft does it, after all.

Mohamed wrote:

everyone keeps rambling about how those new things are great but they're actually not that mainstream, you only get them easily if you're in the US/UK/canada/whatever

The problem with this point is that, I'm fairly certain most people on this forum, or at least most of the active members, are from North America or Europe. You're statement doesn't apply to them. Also, if Grace's accent from her Beat Star YT vid she posted on here about 2 weeks back is any indication, she's either from the US, Canada, or possibly New Zealand. Your statement wouldn't apply to her if she does live in any of these places.

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
TWITCH
YOUTUBE and YOUTUBE DISCORD SERVER

2024-03-26 05:45:28

@33, Some PC manufacturers have drivers that make things worse rather than solve problems.
I'm looking at you Dell.

2024-03-26 06:37:54

@33
I ment in general, I didn't mean OP, if I mentioned OP in my message, that would mean I was directly talking to them, otherwise not.
also.

What countries and regions do you ship to?
September 14 2023 5:22pm
The Framework Laptop is currently available in the following countries and regions:
• United States (not including outlying territories) 
• Canada
• United Kingdom
• Germany
• France
• Ireland
• Netherlands
• Austria
• Australia
• Italy 
• Spain
• Belgium
• Taiwan

2024-03-26 08:22:58 (edited by Ethin 2024-03-26 08:27:11)

@33, this is why I strongly encourage system76. They do have drivers for windows but they aren't all that necessary and Windows works out of the box without any problems. I have no experience with framework which is why I'm not recommending them. S76 may be pricy and Linux-first, but there's nothing stopping you from installing Windows on one of the drives that your machine has, and then putting Linux on the other (this is my setup). It makes hibernating either OS rather challenging, since if you hibernate Windows it'll boot into Linux the next time you power on the machine (assuming Linux is the "default" boot entry), but this is NOT a system76-specific problem and has to do with the way hibernation works in general. The only thing you get with System76's ACPI drivers is the ability to configure charge thresholds (unless your on the graphics-powerful laptops where you can switch between graphics modes, though I don't think that needs ACPI support, and I think you could trivially do that in Windows anyhow without any drivers), but if your using the laptop for gaming and such, you most likely (don't) want to go configuring those. Power profiles is the other thing you can do with the system76-power utility, but that doesn't need special drivers to do in Windows, and it doesn't need ACPI support in Linux either. Point being, these laptops are probably one of the best you could get purely because they support both out of the box and without any issues. They may be on the pricier side, but considering that I've heard (from System76 themselves) that there are people who have had laptops for 5-6 years, if not longer, without getting a new one, and they work just fine, and the fact that I have an 8-year-old laptop from them that still works perfectly when the Lemur Pro 7 was the latest generation, I can confidently say that the price is worth it if you want a laptop that not only can do pretty much whatever you want to do but that also lasts a very long time and comes with great technical support. That is very hard to find in this age of "buy a new laptop every 6 months because your manufacturer was too cheap to use high-quality components".

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2024-03-26 23:44:28

36, thing is, all laptops use the same components, CPU, GPU ram etc. What changes is the chassis and the keyboard etc. Any laptop that is higher end should last over five years.  I only had a low end  Toshiba die in less than four years.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2024-03-27 01:26:32

Possibly unpopular opinion but, Macbook Air. Battery life is simply the best, and it's extremely portable and fanless. Macos can run a lot of Linux tool, and you can virtualize windows with above average performance. and you can run Linux natively on it with Asahi Linux. This makes it work consideration at least.

2024-03-27 02:10:53

Wait until 2027, at which point Apple will be forced to make the MacBook Air battery easily replaceable by the user. I'd also love to run Windows natively on Apple Silicon.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2024-03-27 02:51:10

@37, yeah but many laptops don't even last that long. The cheaper you go, the shorter it lasts.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2024-03-27 03:06:38

40, no disagreement there. Most users get the cheapest quality system and don't take into account a budget system comes with budget components and you get budget results with those.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2024-03-27 04:07:30

@38, Get them to fix their accessibility bugs and Make VO less clunky. I'll consider giving Mac OS another try then.
@40, Some people don't have much of a choice and that's all they can afford.

2024-03-27 04:23:30

I don't mean to sound rood in this following post, but budget is not an issue because I will most likely be trading in my gaming laptop, so getting some money back with that, and because I am still in high school, my parrents will help pay for some of the cost.
Also, if a cheep computer gives bad performence, I wonder why my razor blade 15, purchased 6 months ago, which is the laptop I am desperate to get rid of, lasts about 45 minutes off of a charger, has non working keyboard keys, is very slow, and has had 2 screws fall out?
I have done virus scans, tried Linux and Windows with similar results, and have taken good care of this laptop. I will always use it on a table or desk, and keep it in a protective case / pouch thing in my backpack, which only is on my back as I walk to and from school, and otherwize stays in one place?

2024-03-27 06:05:38 (edited by Ethin 2024-03-27 06:07:18)

@43, that's surprising, given that the prices listed on their website are quite high, I didn't see one that was less than $1800. It also doesn't look like the components are all that cheap, particularly the processor -- I think those go for at least $500-$600 and that's if your lucky.
It's generally true that a budget computer is shitty because most of them are $200-$300, if even that, so they're quite slow and have many problems. I don't know which razor blade 15 computer you have (they have 7 models) but that's ridiculous that it's only lasted 6 months. I will continue recommending system 76 if only because from my experience they last a while as long as you don't go deliberately trying to destroy them, and from what it sounds like you take good care of your tech. The powerful computers from them are going to be quite pricey though. Their tech support is great, however, and they even give you access to their technical docs (BIOS/servicing manual and all that)! Framework would also be a good idea if you want to either build it from scratch or you like the shear amount of upgradability/repairability they offer but I have no experience with them. (As an aside, my only complaint with the Lemur pro, at least the one I have, is that I wish it had more ports... But eh, it's an ultraportable laptop so.... I should expect it not to have many ports...)

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2024-03-27 06:08:57

@42
Yes, I second this.  If Apple ever bothers to really double down on making VO good as opposed to a thing that just kinda works, then I'd probably be all over it. But...and the further you are toward programmer the worse it gets, too.

@43
Guess I'll step in here.

Cheap stuff sucks. That doesn't mean expensive stuff is good.  My worst laptop was my $3000+ alienware back in 2013 or so, which I'll leave factoring in inflation as an exercise to the reader.  It was worse even than that time I went into the local electronics store and bought the first thing I put my hands on because the hurricane was coming.  True story--don't live in Florida, work remote, and only have a big tower.  Sets you up for fun when you realize you're about to not have reliable power for a couple weeks minimum.

Anything that sells itself as a gaming laptop seems to be where the shitshows are.  I did not know Razer even made laptops until today.  I avoid "gaming pcs" and the like myself.  They're like those expensive showoff cars that don't do anything special except make a nice roaring sound and cost a bazillion dollars.  The problem is that you can't ever tell why it costs what it does.  The laptop manufacturers don't have to fully disclose all of the components, indeed often you can't even buy half of them without literally buying the laptop anyway, and have the freedom to cut corners and put whatever price tag on it with no way for you to tell.

I've had two high-end Lenovos without issue if that's helpful. Ymmv and technically Legion is a gaming brand, but work bought it for me and it's been fine for the last 3+ years so eh.  I forget what the other one is, not technically gaming I think.

As for durability in general, honestly padded bags and stuff are great and all but just learning to handle this stuff like it is diamonds and also dynamite at the same time matters more.  I treat my stuff like it's fine china.  The padded bags and stuff, they just make up for mistakes after the fact.  If you think that you need to be that concerned, better to hold it in your off hand rather than let it be on your back, because at least then you know what it's doing.  Still, I've just put mine in backpacks and gone on about my day forever, did all of college that way, no issue.  It's more about things like getting in the habit of putting it down gently and not  jerking the bag around and stuff than anything.  Still, if screws were coming out then either someone dropped it or you just got super unlucky.

To be a bit more concrete, usually the most expensive laptops--the "gaming laptop" or the "portable workstation"--will have horrible battery life because they're selling to people who don't mind cables.  That market wants something to go to their game meet or whatever, plop it down at the dinner table for 3 hours with their friends, etc.  If you just want something for school with reasonable battery life, I'd suggest looking toward the midrange and specifically seeking out reviews that cover it first.  You can also make custom Windows power plans if you haven't (for that matter make sure it's not on high performance, that could be half your problem).  Screen reader users can stretch it by turning the display brightness down to zero and stuff like that.

But do note that if you've only had this machine for 6 months and have treated it well, most places offer a warranty and they may just repair it for free, and then you may just not have a problem.

Unfortunately beyond general platitudes it's hard for me to give you good advice, and imo you should be suspicious of anyone else who claims to.  The laptop market changes stupidly fast and is just kind of the wild west these days.  Like I can say "I've had good luck with Lenovo" but on the other hand it wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things that they had their whole spyware fiasco, and for all I know they might literally randomly become crap tomorrow.  Randomly becoming crap is how I ended up with the alienware--we bought just after they switched the models but before the reviews came in without realizing it because they didn't change the names on any of it at the time.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2024-03-27 06:19:27 (edited by mazen 2024-03-27 06:24:53)

@42 and 45, yes and I agree, but I also mentioned you could run Linux natively on it which the OP wants. I'm suggesting it do to the superior battery life, durability, fanless design, high performance of Apple Silicon Etc. But also Linux will run on ARM so that's possibly a negative depending on software support.

2024-03-27 06:32:31

@45, Alienware is owned by Dell, so that's probably why it sucks.
Once this current machine is done I'm never touching a Dell again. They have way too many issues that I'd prefer not to deal with.

2024-03-27 09:27:11

yeah, macs are, unparalleled when comes to duribility + battery life + proforments +, the, fanless aspect, oh my god you won't realize how that thing is so amazing until you try it first hand, only issue now is just about time where voiceover slowly gets refined, if they didn't stop fixing it slowly like they're now doing. Hopefully.
I agree about apple making VO faster and less buggy, but they are, slowly at least, maybe by 2026 or something?
but for speed sonoma made a colossal difference, like, a really really big one, yes I agree jumping around with modes like quicknav and single key quicknav is a bit annoying but it's much better than it used to be, not perfect, but it is good, only issue I've encountered before was VO crashing sometimes, but that bug maybe is fixed since that was like 3 months ago, and apple are fixing VO with miner updates, they did fix an annoying issue with arabic language switching in sonoma 14.2.
is linux slow like windows is with mac? Since arm and all that? OR did linux do better with arm compaired to windows?

2024-03-27 13:05:17

I'm pretty sure Linux has always been faster than windows in pretty much every aspect. I don't know about ARM but on X86 when I'm in Linux my laptops overall resource consumption is far, far lower and the fan rarely if ever even spins up to begin with (as in, it's usually at 0 RPM all the time unless I deliberately run an intensive task like, I dunno, building the kernels source code or something).

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2024-03-27 13:46:12

I personally love having a powerful desktop and a, not as, but still powerful laptop so I can do whatever no matter where I'm at. I have a desktop at home with a 3060, 12600k and 32gb of Ram and now i"m looking for a laptop upgrade. I got the laptop I'm using now like 6 years ago and you can tell it's age by the i5 9th gen intel CPU that goes up to max usage downloading games sad. Laptops are just so expensive, but I"m about to head off to college and I can't exactly bring my chunkey asf desktop with me to my dorm.