Yeah as I have said prier, I don't get all this hate and annoyance and sadness for standard view. Always used it, and plan to in the future. Couldn't be bothered to install one more app on desktop or even a portable copy or whatever just to view my mail. Idk before I liked doing that but over the years, especially given window's propensity to bug out at any given time and needing clean reinstalls every now and again, I prefer to have as little bloat on my pc as possible other than actual data, which most of I prefer to keep on an external drive anyway. I think this whole web software movement is actually really helpful in this regard. It may not be the most efficient, but if done right it can be and be almost if not as fast as a native app for me. i guess unpopular opinion but I fully support this things going web/cloud and having to store less stuff on your pc, maybe I'm more biased as well as a dev myself who knows that it can be easier for things like cross platform with one interface on the web, that can also be easily wrapped if need be for people that do want native apps. I just got used to it I suppose, most of my daily apps now being web such as discord, spotify, etc. Plus, I think most of these apps have similar interface design patterns once you use them enough, and even if this s not the case, they are reasonably easy to learn thanks to the plethora of web elements navigation commands with most screen readers and honestly you can just keep doing that if you couldn't be bothered to learn keystrokes and use the app in brouze mode. I do that all the time and it can be quite fast once you figure out the layout of the app.
Plus, and not blaming anyone here or anything but I know there are people that literally resist change for the sake of resisting and be stuck in the times. Like it may not be something you want, so why not role with it as best you can and you'll find, if you get past all your fear and rigidness that things really aren't as bad as they may seem. Not just web aps either. The world is a place of change. Change is the only thing constant. Ok many philosophical rant over lmao.
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Today is a very sad day. (Page 2 of 2)
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Posts: 26 to 49 of 49
#26 2024-03-12 16:51:35 (edited by JoWier 2024-03-12 17:00:53)
#27 2024-03-12 16:59:19
No... It's very real news. The Basic HTML button doesn't work for me anymore, and the link I bookmarked back in 2022 brings me to standard view. I've started using betterbird but tbh I don't care for it too much yet.
Fake news. Typing gmail.com still gives me the option to use basic HTML.
But on that note why is it I'm able to see more emails with Basic as compared to standard? Sometimes if someone sends me an email I won't see it unless I switch to basic
#28 2024-03-12 18:20:23
All of the links people are posting just take me to the Standard view, and Google taunts me by having a Basic HTML view button as the first thing on the page, but it does nothing except take me back to my inbox. And going into About:Config and toggling Javascript.enable to false to try and force the issue just gives a useless Javascript required message.
It's not that I mind change, it's that, even following Google's recommendations and guides, this change has so far been obviously less efficient, more clunky, and things that took me seconds in Basic HTML now take minutes. Plus I've yet to encounter new features that are obviously useful but have seen features that are apparently absent and still have to call bullshit on Google's claims of greater usability.
Issues I've encountered so far:
-Checking/unchecking a message now switches to focus mode automatically and it seems like the only way to select multiple messages is to select one, switch to browse mode, press x twice(since the first time goes to the check box I just toggled) and repeat.
-The link to Spam only shows up if there are unread messages. So far, the only work around seems to be to go to my inbox to get rid of mess in the address box and change inbox in the URL to spam.
-I have no idea how to access my contacts, and trying the URL hack I used for spam doesn't seem to work.. And since I can't get to my contacts, I have no idea how to ask the Orca Mailing List about these things since I don't know the list's e-mail address off top of my head.
-Deleting a message I have open appears to be even harder than previously encountered as it doesn't appear the more options menu consistantly shows up in the same place nor that it consistantly includes the delete option.
-If I manage to open a label in a new tab without switching to it, move messages from my inbox to that label, then switch to that tab, the moved messages will show up without refreshing. I find this annoying as I have some things I get regular reminders of where I want to keep the most recent message and delete older ones, but this means the new ones show up in the label before I clean out the older ones... Is there an option to tell Gmail to only refresh when I tell it to?
-There still appears to be no way to open a message in a new tab, and so no way to open multiple messages for reading in quick succession instead of opening messages one-by-one and returning to the inbox after every message. Persumably, this would be easy if subjects where still links, but despite the guides saying they are still links, they do not appear to be links in any way that matters.
-The count of how many conversations there are in the currently visible label seems to be gone.
The only way to get to all mail seems to be via URL hacking(change inbox to all after going to inbox to remove cruft from the address box).
The n and p shortcuts Gmail provides to read next and previous messages in an open conversation sound useful, but in practice, they include too much of the cruft Gmail adds to messages and seem to interfere with the screen reader controls for more granular reading.
The position and visibility of action buttons like archive, mark as spam, delete, etc. doesn't seem to be consistent.
The one positive I can think of is that it is now possible to add a label to a conversation and archive it in one action... If selecting multiple messages was as quick and easy as it was in Basic HTML view, this might actually save time.
If anyone who claims Standard view isn't an over-engineered hunk of junk that fails at the basics knows workarounds for these issues, I'd love to hear them.
#29 2024-03-12 19:07:29
@Jeffery Mewtamer Orca's list address is [email protected].
#30 2024-03-12 20:34:48
It may not be the most efficient, but if done right it can be and be almost if not as fast as a native app for me.
This right here is one problem. Some of us actually prefer that software and websites be eficient. We don't want to have to deal with an interface full of junk just so we can read and send email. We don't want the site taking a ton of resources for things we won't even use. Yes, if done right, websites and web apps can be great, but a lot of things aren't done right these days. Almost everything is garbage and it seems to be getting worse.
i guess unpopular opinion but I fully support this things going web/cloud and having to store less stuff on your pc, maybe I'm more biased as well as a dev myself who knows that it can be easier for things like cross platform with one interface on the web, that can also be easily wrapped if need be for people that do want native apps.
That's another problem. Sure that's less efort for a developer, but it sucks for users in some cases. If an app is just a wrapper for a website, it's not a proper native app. It's a glorified standalone web browser for a single website. If the app is just a wrapper for a website, that personally just pisses me off since I'm probably downloading an app so I don't have to use a website. Also, because each app is its own copy of Chrome and not using a shared framework if you're using Electron, they waste drive space as well as memory. Also, having less stored on your PC gives you less control, so be aware of that.
Plus, I think most of these apps have similar interface design patterns once you use them enough, and even if this s not the case, they are reasonably easy to learn thanks to the plethora of web elements navigation commands with most screen readers and honestly you can just keep doing that if you couldn't be bothered to learn keystrokes and use the app in brouze mode.
Trying to navigate and use most of these web based things with standard screen reader navigation keys is unnecessarily difficult from my own experience. If it were easier, then there probably wouldn't need to be so many builtin shortcuts. If we're using Gmail's HTML view as an example, that's much, much easier to navigate with screen reader navigation keys than the standard view. These new interfaces aren't built with standard web navigation keys in mind, which is why they have so many shortcuts. It feels like a bit of a compromise.
Plus, and not blaming anyone here or anything but I know there are people that literally resist change for the sake of resisting and be stuck in the times. Like it may not be something you want, so why not role with it as best you can and you'll find, if you get past all your fear and rigidness that things really aren't as bad as they may seem. Not just web aps either. The world is a place of change. Change is the only thing constant. Ok many philosophical rant over lmao.
That's true, but some of us find the new things much worse than the old things, and if thats' the case, we don't want to be forced to use the new things, and being told that we just need to suck it up and deal just serves to piss us off more. Sometimes it's not based on fear and ridgitity. If a change is going to make the software I use less efficient, I'm going to be pissed off because it feels like the change is just for the sake of change. Yes in some cases you do indeed have to just roll with things, but sometimes it doesn't pay to just lie down and take whatever you're given like a good little sheep. If we all did that, then we probably wouldn't have as much accessibility as we do now. Corporations are probably betting on consumers just taking whatever they're given no matter what, and that's part of the problem. Not enough people stand up and say they wont' take something for it to matter.
#32 2024-03-12 22:50:01
The basic HTML view isn't completely gone. If you only have one Gmail account, you can copy
mail.google.com/?ui=html
If you have more than one account, you'll need slightly more complicated addresses
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/h/
mail.google.com/mail/u/1/h/
and so on. For the multi-account addresses, you must put a slash (/) at the very end, or it won't work at all. But in case you just can't get it to work and you want a replacement, try proton.me. It is compact and accessible, and has many features, including some privacy things. It was never a secret that Google doesn't care what we want.
#33 2024-03-13 01:22:28
When I installed from scratch last year, I didn't bring back Thunderbird due to bloat and used the Gmail standard interface. I thought this would be temporary, but I really have grown to like it. I turn on focus mode when browsing through my inbox and press X on messages to select, then press E to archive those. I only wish I could read messages without going into browse mode. But for me, living as much as possible in focus mode is the key, and knowing some of the keyboard shortcuts as well.
http://www.atguys.com/software
#34 2024-03-13 01:47:49 (edited by aaron 2024-03-13 01:49:28)
@33: This is interesting to hear. Do you know how to access the spam folder, this is something I'm also wondering myself as sometimes accidental stuff gets put in there, or it's just nice to have a good ol' clearout.
#35 2024-03-13 02:45:53
A few things I've figured out since my post earlier today:
In addition to going through the Inbox tab in settings and disabling categories, I'd suggest:
Going through general tab and disabling all of the "smart" features and grammar/spell checking stuff. Doesn't restore the good old quick reply text box, but it does make composing messages less annoying without Gmail constantly trying to write the e-mail for you. I think there's also an option in there to disable that annoying habit of sending a one off e-mail or accidently reply to an individual instead of a mailing list automatically adding the recipient to your contacts.
Going through the label settings and hiding/showing things as you like.. Among other things, I hid all of the categories that remain in the labels list by default even after disabling the split Inbox, made it show all mail and always show spam, hid snooze and starred. Aside for no longer having a HTML level 3 heading on labels with unread messages, that section is now cleaner than before.
I've found that using the context menu button on the check box for individual conversations gives easy access to, among other things, marking a message read without opening it, moving a message to another label, deleting a message, or opening it in a new window... That last one requires making Gmail an exception to Firefox's pop-up blocker and the new window is a bit wonky(Have to alt tab back to the main window to access bookmarks, trying to open a link in a background tab opens it in the main window and switches focus back to the main window, but opening a message this way removes a lot of the cruft that gets in the way of doing things to the message after reading it.
Still wish there was a way to open messages in new tabs, and wish I could make browse mode sticky to facilitate selecting multiple conversations for batch processing.
Still think Basic HTML view is the far superior web interface and that standard view is highly over engineered, but I feel like I'm at a point where its mostly a case of I'm having to do things I don't do on any other website and my fingers wanting to do the things they've been doing for over a decade. Going to need to figure out more tricks to reach the same level of efficiency I had with basic HTML view, but I feel like I'm at least past the worst.
And speaking more generally, I don't mind web apps in general. Heck, I've been using a web app to check my e-mail for over 20 years and thought Gmail's basic HTML view was a damn fine web app. What I find annoying are web appsthat discard long established norms of web design in favor of abusing the hell out of JavaScript, eye candy, and the like and if any consideration is given to people who use keyboards as an input device at all, it's mostly in the form of a bunch of wheel reinventing that wouldn't be needed if they just stuck to the existing norms.
Also, to hell with apps that are just a glorified web browser that serves a crappier version of the dev's website, and doubly so if it basically includes a entire copy of one of the real, bloated web browsers and eats up as many resources as a full web browser. If you can't be arsed to make a proper offline app, how about just making your main website not suck and let me use your website in a real browser without being harassed to download your app that's just a crappier version of your website and still won't run on my Linux desktop despite cross platform being one of the excuses not to make a real app.
#36 2024-03-13 11:25:26
Gmail's shortcuts work for me fine using Firefox, though the entire list here is in collapsed by default lists
https://support.google.com/mail/answer/ … rm=Desktop
On the other hand, Thunderbird, as nice as it is, refuses to let me send emails with big attachments. Gmail? No problem with that, whereas Tbird throws a fit about oh we can't save a copy to sent mail, then when I sort that out, now it's timing out, whereas sending from gmail directly works perfectly fine. THe really weird thing is, I can log in to Gmail just fine, I get the use standard view thing when I hit basic HTML and then have to go through the verify my identity process, when I don't have to for using standard Gmail. Is anyone else getting that?
#37 2024-03-13 12:16:31
yeah its still interesting that it shows up for me, but I started to getting used to the standard view... the only thing I have issues with is to make it show older e-mails haven't figured that out yet. But shortcuts work fine as well, only annoying thing is having to be in focus mode for almost anything.
#38 2024-03-13 12:31:26
I haven't been using a web email client ever since the yahoo! days, so yeah, don't care all that much, and I would recommend everyone to use thunderbird or a similar client at this point. For standard view, I checked it out of bordum today, and even on linux, don't leave focus mode, more so, enter sticky mode by pressing orca+a twice in quick succession and only use browse mode when strictly required. Then, it's absolutely a no brainer that you should enable keyboard shortcuts in settings, whyever google doesn't enable that by default is something I'll never understand, but O well
for the rest, especially @30, I totally agree, this trend of js bloat and eye candy is very real, and excessively annoying. I will use web apps when I have to, but I'm not a fan of most of them, unless they can be navigated more or less with screenreader commands for web navigation
#39 2024-03-13 15:24:33
There are way too many nagging issues with Tbird and Betterbird for me to use them every day. WHy should an email client demand I compact folders when I have gigabytes and terabytes of space to spare. Why does it refuse to save a copy in my sent folder if I attach a large file or several to it, and then times out connecting to Gmail's servers
Gmail's web interface has none of these issues. THe provided shortcuts Google have made work well, and it allows me to attach large files then saves it successfuly, it does not whine at me for compacting a folder, but gives me a limit of 15GB across all my Google services
#40 2024-03-13 16:14:15
Still works for me, they'll have to clear their cache if they want me to stop using it. 
#41 2024-03-13 17:58:44
#39:
settings, in "find in settings" type compact. You get a checkbox that says "compact all folders when it will save over 20 MB in total", I assume that's the default because I never set it. You can change the amount of space before it compacts, but you could also just uncheck it. It's not Thunderbird's fault if you can't be bothered to look at the settings.
"rabbid dog aggressive attitude" since 3035. THE SYSTEM IS TRAP!
#42 2024-03-13 18:28:57
No, it is not my fault since Tbird does not give an option to disable the compacting right from the popup. There is, at least on Arch and the version it uses, zero way to disable it from the popup and given that is the first thing that comes up and it steals focus, that is an issue. All you get is a more info link, and a few buttons, none of which are do not show this again and stop asking me
#43 2024-03-14 17:35:52
yeah what is wrong with the normal default gmail UI? I've used it just fine and found the basic layout even worse.
#44 2024-03-26 23:56:18
They seem to be rolling out the removal slowly. It happened to me a few days back and now I'm stuck on the new awful Gmail. I'm going to bring up a few things:
Firstly, it took me days to figure out even how to send an email, due to the way the recipient is chosen. The edit fields for to, cc, etc. are these weird editable combo boxes. They don't appear with the virtual cursor in JAWS; the only way I found it was to turn off the virtual cursor and tab around. The only thing the virtual cursor finds is that thing where you select a contact, which is obviously what Google wants you to do (perhaps so that they can find out whom you are talking to and add that to the list of information they gather about you), but I won't, because I prefer typing in addresses manually, and that is a basic functionality that should never take so long to figure out on an email service.
I think most of my problems with the standard view stem from all of these smart features. I went into the settings to turn on the keyboard shortcuts, which weren't turned on by default for some reason, and I took the opportunity to disable all that smart personalizing bullshit (not that it will help with privacy as much as switching over to Proton). However, Gmail is still trying to be smart and doing things I'm not interested in. I went looking for the Spam folder, but there are no folders. There are just labels, labels and more labels, a feature I don't even know anything about. Folders are another basic necessity that should be easier than this to find in Gmail. And there is of course this thing that tells you whether a mail is important or not. It doesn't bug me at all, but anyone with brains knows that most scam and virus emails would be marked as important, as well as promotions from companies, so that feature just doesn't help at all. To summarize, it actually was a sad day, because the removal of the basic HTML view sucks a diarrhea-covered dick.
And yes, more people need to stand up to companies. I remember a while back I heard some audio plugin review where a guy said that subscription services are the future. They are only the future if we let them, and we shouldn't, because they are yet another way for companies to take away ownership, which is too disgusting to describe in one post. We gotta set boundaries.
I was wondering: Freedom Scientific published a training webinar on using the standard view a while back. They did the same with Windows 8. Neither of these programs was good news for blind users. I'm wondering if Freedom Sci is being "pimped" by those big companies. Is Freedom perhaps only trying to maintain a good relationship with the larger companies to try to make them aware of accessibility? It just doesn't make sense that their instructors speak so positively about all these products, dispite their many issues.
#45 2024-03-27 01:40:38
Yeah I've been trying to get used to standard, and it's a hard process. So far as I know, I've followed all the recommendations in the using gmail with screen readers guide, and the interface is kind of meh. The biggest problem I have with it at present is that when I compose a message and start typing an e-mail address in the to box, NVDA jumps right out of focus mode as soon as suggestions appear. And this is with the automatic focus mode change settings unchecked. What's really weird though is that keyboard focus doesn't move, so I can keep typing to finish the e-mail address if I want. It's super disorienting to me tbh, so if anyone can help a total dummy out with not getting thrown out of focus mode, and checking the addresses being suggested to me, that would be highly appreciated!
I'll be honest, when people kinda drive by and say they've been using standard or they see no issues with it, or accuse others of just resisting change, it makes me wanna shake them and ask them what they're doing differently. I don't want to come off like this blindy who can't get used to anything new but, I simply don't get it sometimes. I'm pretty computer literate, though I'm getting kind of rusty at web apps because they all just kinda do their own thing especially outside of browse mode so... Yeah I feel like some people have some secret knowledge, or some reservoir of patience that I simply don't have anymore. I try to keep up with the new trends in interfaces, such as what gmail's standard view is doing, and sometimes I just have to shake my head and wonder why they're reinventing everything and why I have to turn all of these settings off just to get something basic and easy ish to understand. Sometimes, it feels like a me problem, like I'm just too slow and dumb to figure these things out, now that we've gone outside my little bubble of things that make sense, and that feeling obviously doesn't foster positive emotions. Okay, rant over lol
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#46 2024-03-27 03:53:50
Personally, I have no problem with the standard view since I got used to it long ago when they announced that they were going to remove the HTML view, but I am still not a fan of the layout. And yes, the layout for composing emails is the worst for real.
To check your spam folder, hit the more labels button and hit down till you hear spam, hit enter/space and go down, or hit the jump to table button.
just another day where you have to adapt, I guess, same goes with electron view trend or whatever these big company did or will do.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl5M8k … AX7ARPisiA
#47 2024-03-27 09:31:12
I personally still haven't gotten used to Standard View. I tried Betterbird, and although it isn't as bloated as thunderbird... But of course, it had been years since I've used thunderbird, and guess what? That's a web app too. I mean, do devs not know how to create native apps anymore? I'm getting to the point where I'm just going to use a command line client in WSL because this is getting ridiculous. At least for Gmail and Outlook, as the Yandex light view is much easier to use than anything Microsoft or Google have ever tried since the age of Electron began.
"The most deadly poison of our times is indifference. And this happens, although the praise of God should know no limits. Let us strive, therefore, to praise Him to the greatest extent of our powers." - St. Maximilian Kolbe
#48 2024-03-27 11:01:07
To fix the problem what I do is. I write the e-mail address in another edit box such as notepad or whatever and I copy to clipboard. Then I get back to Gmail. And I turn on focus mode and control V to paste the e-mail address this way it works for me. I know it's stupid but at least it works
#49 2024-03-28 02:22:02
@44: Labels are basically another name for folders, only a message can have multiple labels, and this has more or less been the case in Gmail since the very beginning, even in Basic HTML view.
That said, the default visibility settings for system labels are kind of whack in Gmail Standard View, emphasizing much of the bullshit Google is pushing and hiding many of the ones you'd expect to find. That said, if you go into the labels tab in Gmail settings, you can change the visibility settings for system labels(the choices are show, show if unread, and hide). I went through to make it show inbox, sent, all mail, spam, and trash, and to hide snooze, starred, important, social, forums, updates, promotions, and most of the other system labels that didn't exist in Basic HTML. I think drafts was the only thing I set to show if unread.
The labels tab under Settings is also where you can create user defined labels.
Also, worth noting that while visible labels will have links, these links aren't in the tab ordering of page elements, at least in Firefox 123/124 on Debian using Orca. That said, there are useful headings to get to labels quickly.
From the inbox(or the message list for any other label), I go into browse mode and use the 2 on my number row to jump between the level 2 HTML headings. The first is search(personally useless, the second is system labels, the third and fourth are my user defined labels, and the fifth is conversations(also personally useless). Once on the appropriate labels heading, I press k to jump between the links to individual labels, and the context menu to open them in new tabs(since for some reason, using the usual open in new tab keyboard shortcut makes Gmail open in current tab). Still miss inbox and spam turning into level 3 headings when there are unread messages and would prefer to tab through the links instead of using k, a navigational hotkey I rarely use amuwjere else on the web, but I've gotten use to this.
For navigating the message list, I use x to navigate by checkboxes, the context menu to do actions on individual mconversations, and if I want to do batch processing, I x to the checkbox of the first message, press space to select it, which forces me into focus mode, and once in focus mode, I arrow up and down through the messages, using x to toggle selected/unselected, and once done selecting, I arrow to a selected message and pick the thing I want to do to all from the context menu. Would still prefer to just x through all the check boxes without being forced into focus mode or at least being able to toggle selection with space instead of having the weird key/action combo, but I'm getting used to it... and the context menu having mark read and move to(combining the archive and add label actions in one) is actually an improvement to mark read being buried in a combobox where it is easier to just open emails you want marked read without actually reading them and having to add a label and archive a message in two separate actions.
My outstanding complaints about standard view would include:
Having to find and click the reply link instead of just being able to jump to the quick reply text box.
Not being able to tell what the default reply address for a conversation is.
There seemingly being no way of deleting individual messages in a conversation.
Contacts being buried in the other Google Apps menu... and contacts is a whole other kettle of rotten fish, as when I first found out how to access my contacts from standard view, I momentarily thought most of my contacts had been deleted in the Gmailocalypse as most don't show up in all contacts, but only other contacts, and I haven't even gotten around to fighting to clean up that mess.
There apparently being no way of knowing how many messages there are in a given label without manually counting or going to the label tab in settings(and there, it only lists counts for user defined labels) Granted, I have conversations per page set to 100, and before the Gmailocalypse, I only had about 75 conversations in all maill(and I could cut that number by more than half if Gmail had a merge conversations function, so no idea if multiple pages of messages will make "1-100 of 101" or similar show up).
The aforementioned use of broken editable comboboxes for to/cc/bcc fields when writing an e-mail. Makes me glad that I'm rarely the one to initiate a conversation and rarely forward things.
Having to batch open messages in new windows instead of new tabs. Also, had to uncheck site preferences in Firefox's clear history dialog because opening messages in a new window requires an exception to Firefox's pop-up blocker, and with site preferences checked, I had to redo the exception everytime I cleared history. It also means the recently closed windows submenu is now a constant presence in my history menu when I'm used to it not being there 90% of the time when I go to reopen tabs I want back. This is probably the biggest outstanding annoyance since I have to deal with it constantly... plus links opened get opened back in the main window and opening a link forces focus back to the main window, so if there are ten links in an e-mail I want to open, that's 20 window switches... Plus switching to a window other than the one I just came from is a major pain since my window manager/desktop environment doesn't let me hold down alt and tab through windows one at a time until I hear the title of the window I want, if I want a window other than the one I just came from, I have to hold down alt, press tab twice or more, and hope I land in the right place. It's giving me flashbacks to the Internet Explorer days before Firefox introduced me to tabbed browsing, but worse since I was a sighted mouse user in those days and could just click on the window I wanted on the taskbar... Seriously, forget thedisregard for accessibility and forcing users to adapt to whatever BS the devs want to force down everyone's throats, this is a regression to a way of doing things that went out of fashion over 20 years ago.
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