Don't worry, Jonnyboy. I can pretty safely say we won't "come crying" to you or anyone else, regardless of how this shakes down.

Seriously, y'all who don't like the way I come across at times need to get a load of this dude.

Meanwhile, we have a forum to run, new mods to hopefully vet and add, bugs to fix, and only so much time in a day, given that those of us with code chops have limited time and *gasp* need to make a living, too. We've done the first step in migrating to a setup where the admins now have back-end server access to address serious problems. You want to talk about staging? This is the first step in a multi-step process which absolutely should not end here. If that's not enough for you, then that's more your issue than ours, and is growing proof - if it were needed - that no matter what is done to improve this community (be it improving rules, being more consistent about certain behaviours, migrating to a new host) , there is always going to be a certain crowd who will move the goal posts in an attempt to find fault...or invent it, as the case may be.

When we know when our next step is happening, and what exactly it entails, we will certainly let you know. In the meantime, perhaps consider that availability and uncertainty and multiple ideas being floated at once means that we aren't 100% sure of exactly where we're going and how we get there yet. Championing transparency, as we do, does not mean you should be privy to our every deliberation at every step; it simply means that as and when we reach consensus on things and know where we're going, we will try to include you in the process and keep you abreast of what's coming. Again with those pesky changing expectations. I mean, what's next? Do we have to publish our discord meetings and show you a read-only archive of all the discussion that happens on our server in order to demonstrate our transparency? Want our bank records and spending histories, too, just so you know we aren't getting money on the down low? No, sir. None of it. Let's dispense with the notion that we're keeping anyone in the dark, deliberately or otherwise. Let's remember that it can sometimes be difficult to coordinate multiple people with overlapping skillsets, and that the webmasters are hard to pin down at the best of times. Let's also remember that when and if we do change forum software, or make other upgrades, we want to do it with a minimum amount of disruption and frustration for forum users, some of whom might be overwhelmed by sudden and potentially unexplained changes, and many of whom are apt to run across bugs and glitches that we didn't see coming and only have so much ability to react to. When you have a small team whose availability is dicey, it pays to do things slowly, methodically and with great care. Please remember that.

I won't be posting in here again unless I need to issue warnings for some reason. There's no threat of that at this point, so don't take that as a hint of things to come, but I've said all I need to here, and I'm once again reminded of how thankless a job this can be when certain voices choose to speak up. Again, I enjoy different perspectives, and actively seek suggestions made in good faith. But the constant "you're doing it wrong" starts to feel like backseat moderation, past a certain point, and let me tell you, it's fucking tiresome. If you're really dedicated to the things you're suggesting, if you think you can do a better job than we are (or hey, even if you think you can just be an asset to the team in some way), moderator applications are open, and we're looking for just your sort of talent.

Okay, maybe I've just been lucky, but I haven't noticed any of the half-brokenness of this forum some claim. Heck, the only thing that might be a glitch I can recall encountering is that if I type a really long post then tab back to the new posts page and click the new posts link on another thread, sometimes it acts like I left the forum and came back and jumps me past posts  that were posted since my last visit and to the first of posts posted during my current visit... and sorry if that sounds odd or doesn't make sense.

Also, considering how many sighted people complain everytime Microsoft overhauls the Windows UI or that there was a thread recently on another forum I frequent mostly about how Wikipedia changed their look for the first time since 2010 and people don't like it, and that forum has had several threads complaining about YouTube changing their layout over the years, I get the impression that most people, even sighted people care more about consistency of their user experience than they do about trendy design changes. And best I can recall, even before  I went blind, I was usually at least a bit annoyed when websites underwent major changes and appreciated sites that keep the same look and feel for years upon years.

ANd since I'm a Linux user, it might be worth noting that the Mate Desktop, as I understand it, exists because some people didn't like the changes the Gnome devs made for Gnome 3, so a group of users decided to take the final version of Gnome 2, rename it, and keep it up to date, and now Mate is up there with Gnome and KDE among the most widely used DEs on Linux systems(and might be the most widely used DE among blind Linux users).

Yeah I agree with this. I don't like rules for me but not for thee. Staff should lead by example, and that shouldn't include firing cheap shots at people, even if they are going over the top.

mods: get bitchy and hostile over feedback.
Community: Here's some of that shit you're shoveling
Mods: Surprised Pikachu face.

Na, didn't feel like it but I think that was a perfect way to end a convo. Listen, we ain't done until I say we're done hehehehehehehehe Lol. It's times like these you gotta stand up for yourself and would have left if said person didn't do what they did so yeah! That's the whole reason Why I did what I did. Guess I shouldn't say we're done anymore because guess, we're never done hmm?

@Dgleks, with that amount of anger I'm almost inclined to think you're the lead dev of PanBB or something. Go have a snickers.

Yeah... I'd say it is fair to say that he has he has been antagonizing them pretty hard, but they went there first. Post 17 is just being hostile and bitchy for the sake of being hostile and bitchy. Probably could have left it at we're looking into several alternatives bla bla.
But they have form for this. Someone will say something they don't like, they get pissy, they respond in a hostile way that tiptoes juuuuuuust onto the line of telling them to go fuck themselves and when the clapback they earned comes in they start crying about thankless jobs, Baaaaaaaad faith, shifting the goalposts and so on. Frankly, if we weren't a captive audience this place would probably be dead

@Carter, it seems as editting posts are also laggy and no, it's not my internet in that instanse. Thanks for keeping the ship floating.

Hey there captive audience! Listen up!

moderation:

Jonnyboy1991 is receiving a warning for generally stirring the pot by way of off-handed comments, assumptions and a few vaguely worded attacks stroon throughout.
While I highly appreciate the software descriptions and offer to let us look around (may take you up on that BTW), the insinuations that we hadn't considered other options, are entirely closed off to the idea, know all/are gods/benevolent dictators or whatever are not productive. You may not intend to attack or provoke other users, but when you speak your mind on paper (by self admission) sometimes things don't come across the way you think. Combined with your tone, half-hearted apologies and repetition... It doesn't paint a particularly good picture. In the future, I highly recommend reading your post before clicking the button with the same name. You can't assume everyone is going to take what you're saying at face value.

Dgleks is receiving a warning for personal attacks as well. This was a difficult one for me not because of rank, I actually tend to think it's good to demonstrate that absolutely no one is above our policies (BDFL haha!!!), but I originally read the post the same way Lucas did. The addition of the word "your":

provides room for interpretation of an attack on a person, vs attack on an entity, vs attack on a person directly or indirectly associated with an entity (my brain hurts). Obviously criticizing someone on the basis of their spelling or grammar is not OK under any circumstance. In fairness to him and for what it's worth, , Dgleks was the first to bring this topic and the fact that he may have overstepped to the team's attention. I think some would be surprised to realize just how common it is to have someone report a post where they felt provoked and fess up to their own mistakes in the process.
Again, bad precedent. But good reminder that we're all human, all have our days, and sometimes can't resist a little snark. Rules are rules.

end moderation

A few questions have arisen regarding forum/site permissions and ownership. Unfortunately I can't go into crystal clear detail right now as it's TBD and conversations are under way. What I can say is that I've been given root privileges over the server including the codebase of the site, forum and DB. We essentially have the authority to make whatever changes the community may wish, within reason. When we tackle the remaining DB bottlenecks, which are currently responsible for extended wait times submitting posts or performing searches, everything will be version  controlled. If that works out, five minutes and we get reliable staging too.
At this point, staff members will be given access to resources on an as needed (and wanted) basis. As a result the current hangup is really just ensuring interoperability between the site and DB. After that? Well... there's a pretty massive list of things to juggle alongside my dayjob and side business (go me!) NTM hectic lives of the hosts and probably anyone I'd consider trusting with access.
In addition to the new feature today and backend/admin related bug fixes, first priority after staging is integrating the reg system to make it not suck (I've already extended the expiration time and been checking with greater regularity, baby steps here). Followed by other necessary stability improvements, faster and more frequent automated backups, etc. After that I'll probably poll to see what the community considers most important.

Another question that's been on many minds: forum software. At the moment, we don't have any immediate plans to switch away from a PHPBB based system like Pun/Pan BB or its derivatives. Not to say we're entirely opposed, maybe I'll be the one to start a fuss some sunny day after one too many lines of 2005 PHP. Until then, what we have is stable (it's carried us this far) and surprisingly extendable given the stack--hooks everywhere for all the things!

Jeffery touched on a point that I'd kind of like to reiterate. There's state of the art and feature rich, and then there's light weight, familiar and stable.
IMO here lies the disconnect. Most of you advocating for the former are by and large pretty used to frequenting websites with less than stellar accessibility (probably because you have to, or maybe your OS allows for doing so efficiently). There are obviously going to be those who deviate from the rule, but the one thing our site has going for it is that it works. And works literally anywhere on PC, mobile devices and hell braille notetakers (some of our users actually still rely on those, fun fact). It's just about as vanilla HTML as you can get. Discourse (admittedly) still has some issues that we'd have to work around. We as in the tech people, as well as the "alt+f4? hmm?" people. Course very possibly it's advanced to the point of templating and I just don't know.

Speaking personally, since I have a super busy personal situation, I first want to see what can be done with a few bandaids so to speak. If the only choice for our time is another piece of software, that's probably where we'll be forced to go. After seeing the technical pieces, especially site -> forum and account integrations, I'm not currently convinced of that.

I suppose only time will tell. I don't have the best track record for prior planning... This did not age well:

I don't have the best track record because frankly I'm not talking to potential shareholders, and I've learned that analysis paralysis means I might not even start and if I do I'll second guess half of my previous decisions. Nope, far better to learn what you can, go with a few hunches in places, outline and shoot at whatever moves. This is to say, if I am forced to eat my words later, so frickin be it.

Hi all,
I know this is a very simple post, but I'd just like to come in and say we had a very productive staff meeting indeed.