2021-05-19 21:44:23

Folks,

I've mostly been a lurker on these forums in recent years, but I've been around a while. In that while, I've seen the site go from awesome to meh. It hasn't been quick. And if you're not paying attention, until recently it's been significantly less noticeable. But there've been issues for ages, the site admins know it, the webmasters (such as they are) know it. Based on this open letter, the site admins at least want to fix it--whether or not the webmasters want to let them. So, since the open letter topic is closed, in response to that topic, an offer.

I have space on a reliable, stable, and shamefully underutilized server. That server has a 579 day uptime at present, and I am super paranoid about backups. I will, if necessary, host the next Audiogames.net, whether or not it turns out to be *this* audiogames.net.

I have made the offer to the webmasters before, and have been ignored. So, hell with it. If the admins end up moving on from this site, I'm making that same offer to the admins. I want to see this site become what it once was, and a software that hasn't been updated since 2009 is a terrible reason to let the place die. You have the desire. I have the means. If the webmasters fall through, as there's every likelihood they will, let's talk. I mean, we can't do much worse.

2021-05-19 22:27:30

If you guys consider help from OP, I'm in full support of it. I've never seen this person get any warnings before, and they seem quite dedicated. They have been dedicated to helping over the last couple years, and IMO that shows a lot of integrity.

Discord: dangero#0750
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2021-05-19 22:42:38

James, I'll go ahead and repost this in the open letter thread, and fyi it's being open so contributions such as this one are very much welcome.

2021-05-19 22:43:17

Agreed with @2
I've never seen this person write in the forum before, and sometimes silence is the best thing. It also seems to me that when they do post, it's received well by the community, judging by their post to karma ratio.
They seem to be very willing to help, and also to cooperate with others, so that's a plus. Also if their server has a 500 day uptime, that's really good as well.

I say that if the webmasters don't say or do something soon that this would be an offer to take up.

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2021-05-20 01:31:07

@1, what forum software will you use assuming this does go forward? I'm quite curious

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-05-20 17:06:03

Ideally you'd want one that allows complete rewriting of the layout and theme (bbPress is a no go as far as that's concerned). There isn't at all a problem with the PunBB interface, simply that it's older than dirt and sadly most modern forum software isn't nearly as lightweight (Discourse, looking at you here). Which is hardly an issue for us folks with stable internet, but owing to our demographic of users with varying degrees of internet from good to extremely crappy, latest and greatest could be far from ideal in this case. Hell I'll bet we still have a few Braillenote Apex users clinging on for dear life, not that we specifically have to support that, but it's safe to say that anything that calls up scripts like there's no tomorrow is off limits.

2021-05-20 20:08:28 (edited by Ethin 2021-05-20 20:10:39)

@6, I very much disagree. Discourse would be a prime target for a forum like this. It has everything that you guys need -- there's a way to send messages and you actually get notifications, people can flag particular posts for moderation purposes and people can choose to see it or not, it has a warning system, push notifications... Everything you'd need in a modern forum. I don't think the "Oh we have people with crappy hardware or bad internet" argument is applicable here, and IMO its perfectly reasonable to move on to better things. Other international forums have already done so -- the Rust, XWiki, and Ioquake forums are just three examples, and I can probably find more trivially. The internet has moved far beyond static web pages and its not going to sit around and wait for people using ancient braillenotes or people running Windows 95 to catch up and upgrade, and I don't see a reason why we should either.
As for scripts, that's not really an issue unless your still on something like dial up. Scripts are designed to be (usually) quite tiny, and modern browsers support asynchronous script loading so the loading process doesn't slow the rest of the page from loading. I think that even someone who's on a 200 kbps down internet plan could handle Discourse, although it might be slow for them. Again, though, there's no reason we should use ancient forum software just for those people. We can't accommodate everyone and everything. Discourse is a fine option for the forum, IMO. (As an example of how non-applicable that argument is, I usually get 300-500 kBPS down here at home for right now and I can still use Discourse forums and Gmail's standard view (and I hate standard view, mind), and Gmail in particular is very script heavy.)

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-05-20 20:14:28

@Ethin Agreed completely. If we lose users because of it that isn't really our cross to bare. I had a hell of a time with Discourse until I upgraded and we actually got an honest to goodness router rather than ISP-supplied one (took long enough). The current php-based system works fine for the db as there's nothing standing in the way, but the forum? Not so much. If there's any modern forum software that would do the job well it would be Discourse.

2021-05-20 20:30:13

Slightly off topic, but would someone have to have created the note at the top of the forum, or was it just system generated?

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Discord: misterkrabs69

2021-05-20 20:31:28 (edited by Ethin 2021-05-20 20:32:32)

@8, it would. It has everything that the users have asked for and then some. The nice thing is that if you guys have any questions or need help, not only are the docs updated and available but I or any of the other Linux users on here can fire up an instance to help you out.
@9: it was manually entered into the software by Jack or one of the other mods. I was surprised to see it but I'm not surprised at the reasoning behind it.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-05-20 20:36:16 (edited by MatthewSmithYT 2021-05-20 20:36:37)

@10, Thanks.

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Matthew's Horse Needs Your Support!
Discord: misterkrabs69

2021-05-20 21:19:04

Last I checked, navigating in large threads was difficult with Discourse. In large threads, it seemed to get difficult to find a specific post or jump around to different places.

2021-05-20 21:19:59

The one potential problem is that we're on a dedicated host. Discourse only supports installation in a Docker container, so the host would have to install it for us. Which means, if the site owners do get back to us, discourse might be out of the question.

2021-05-20 22:06:04

@12, yes, but that's where changing the layout and theme comes into play.
@13, yes, that is a problem. But its a good thing. And I don't think the OP would mind running a docker container -- it would make upgrading and other things like that trivial, and there wouldn't be much they'd need to manage.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-05-20 22:11:45

At this point, the web hosts have made their intentions plain. Which is to say that they don't give a damn about this place anymore. Which is honestly fine. They made a thing that had a number of good years. I think they could have handled things a bit better than just straight up disappearing unless something critical came along, but it is what it is. Even if they do get back to us now, why do we want to stay with them unless of course, they hand everything off the to the current admin team? I think we're well past an apology and a promise to be a bit more diligent.

I've never cared much about forum software to see what I've been on when I use other forums. I don't, therefore, have any opinions about Discourse. I will say this, however. Most forum software is a navigational annoyance. Yes it's doable, but most of the time, you're having to find your own way to jump between posts, because each one is in a table that in itself is part of a list that it part of a board which is another item in a longer list. So, whatever solution y'all decide to go for, I hope that it either is a bit more accessible than that, or it can be made so.

While I understand the need to adapt, I don't think we should get stuck with something that's a royal pain to use. Maybe we won't get as lucky and have everything broken out by headings, but something should be done to make sure we have a means of being able to navigate better than jumping by random graphics, jumping by list elements and hoping they take you somewhere close to where you want to be, or at worst, searching for some text that you know is at the header of each post.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2021-05-20 22:53:21

@GrannyCheeseWheel: Any themable forum engine, Discourse included, can be bent and twisted in however way you see fit. The problem is twofold:
1. Mainstream forums who don't see the point, and
2. People who wouldn't know the first thing about modifying php/html/anything of the sort.
@Ethin: Oh, op would have probably went with that. But if we go with the current site hoist which to my knowledge is a dedicated hosting provider, we're flat out screwed. PHPBB is actively maintained, but that's about all it has going for it when compared to PunBB.

2021-05-20 23:04:56

@16, right, which is why we should accept the OPs offer. Its a really good one and is pretty much a no-brainer in this instance.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-05-21 00:26:07

I think the thing we need to do first and foremost is give the site owners a reasonable time frame in which to respond and address these issues. It's not cool that it's gotten this bad, and it does need to be fixed, but the letter was just posted very recently, and ostensibly just sent off recently as well. I think we need to give them a little wiggle room here. If after all that has been granted we still don't have anything workable, then it's time to think big.
This is an excellent offer, I just think it should be tabled, at least in the immediate short term.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2021-05-21 00:27:58

I’d say give it a month or two. If we don’t hear anything then, then it might be a good thing to get things going.

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
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2021-05-21 00:36:55

Carter already reached out to them before this thing was made though. That was what, a month or so ago?

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2021-05-21 00:49:04

Maybe they’re not responding to emails anymore? Maybe they change their email address? Assuming they’re living at the same place they’ve always been, it would probably be hard to miss a letter.

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
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YOUTUBE and YOUTUBE DISCORD SERVER

2021-05-21 01:00:03

Yeah but they'd see it if they even read the forum, which who knows if they even do that? Their profiles don't have a thing showing their last visit

2021-05-21 01:14:14 (edited by Ethin 2021-05-21 01:18:16)

@21, the letter was never mailed -- nobody even knows their mailing addresses. And, TBH, I'd say just go for it and damn the webmasters here. On countless occasions we've tried reaching out to them and on pretty much every occasion they have failed to get back to us within a reasonable time frame. We reached out to them on the copyright problem. We reached out to them when we started suffering forum errors. We reached out to them a month or two ago. I'm sure others have reached out to them as well. And nothing. If they truly gave a damn about this place, they'd, uh, actually take part in its administration. The ship of peacefully contacting the admins has already sailed, IMO. I'd say turn this place into a historical archive and go elsewhere. Lock registrations and logins and only allow guest access so that we can view historical information. Take the OPs offer and set up a forum that's ran by the actual forum admins -- admins who actually give a damn about this place and don't pop in every 10 years to make tiny micro-changes and then vanish.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-05-21 01:22:13

Regarding punBB, I was quite surprised to discover this last year, but it actually received an update around January of 2020 to add PHP7 support. Hell, it may even have received more at this point, haven’t checked, but it’s not completely dead in the water. This site is using and already old, hacked together fork, which is where most of the issues are coming from.

2021-05-21 01:25:59

22, the last visit thing only shows up for moderators/admins I believe.