2021-04-11 16:25:11

curious about your opinions. I personally do because in this entire universe we can’t be the only life out there. It just seems mathematically impossible

2021-04-11 17:10:04

I completely agree with that. We can't be alone.

2021-04-11 17:28:18

I think This immortal song from Monti python, says it for me, the one which in its last line reads "you better hope that there's intelligent life out there in space, because there's bugger all down here on earth!" big_smile.

But to actually seriously answer the question, yes, the universe being the size it is, the possibility of there not! being life seems pretty remote, so logically some must be intelligent in some way, though how similar to what we call intelligence, who knows.

Still, the last iteration of the drake equation I heard predicted about 300 civilizations in our own galaxy, albeit the drake equation has so many unknown variables it really should be called the drake set of highly modified educated guesses big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2021-04-11 17:59:37

dark, maybe your cyber elves came from another galaxy. You should ask them about it, they can’t be that dumb. It Hass to be an act, they want to take over the world. smile

2021-04-11 18:11:52 (edited by titan_of_war 2021-04-11 18:12:08)

I do, because me and my family have has experiences with UFO's etc. And other things.

Bach is an astronomer, discovering the most marvelous stars. Beethoven challenges the universe. I only try to express the soul and the heart of man."
― Frederic Chopin.

2021-04-11 18:33:49

@mechaSkyGuardian, nobody is exactly sure where the cyber elves came from, even me! but taking over the world certainly isn't unique to extra terrestrial life, there are plenty of people on this planet who want to do it to, ---- many of them with about as much intelligence as cyber elves big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2021-04-11 18:53:40

I can agree with you there dark

2021-04-11 19:11:44

Yes there's no way we're the only intelligent life forms. Unless we're the last or the first but even then there's just too many planets for even that to be likely.

Kingdom of Loathing name JB77

2021-04-11 19:12:39

I mean, "believe in" is a weird way of putting it.  We know beyond all shadow of a doubt that evolution works (we can do it on a small scale in the lab).  We know beyond all shadow of a doubt that there are other planets like Earth.  But--well.  The drake equation isn't the worst thing.  The worst thing is that if you assume that every technological civilization sends out probes, and they always point their probes toward other habitable systems, it's really weird that we haven't seen any.  The universe is kind of incompatible with there being extraterrestrial life but there not being a galactic empire, because even without FTL you'd probably have something somewhere that lives long enough not to care, or automated exploration probes that can build more, or at least one civilization that's built some sort of artifact that we can see from here.  This question is called the great filter: what stops life from getting to that point?  No one knows.  Maybe life is rare.  Maybe intelligence is rare.  Maybe civilizations end up nuking themselves, or bacteria kills you off, or any number of other things.  But you'd be hard pressed to find a scientist who would say with a straight face that extraterrestrial life doesn't exist.  There's even tentative evidence and arguments for microbial life on Mars in the past.  Whether it's possible is pretty much a solved question.  The interesting question is why we haven't found it.

@5
You're going to find out one day that experiences with UFOs is probably someone was on all the drugs, or they also believe that lizardmen exist, or any number of other things.  The reason scientists don't go around looking for them is because they don't make sense in the slightest: if you have that technology you have much better things to do than fool around with the humans while also keeping yourself hidden, but they also act in ways which science has ruled out save for godlike entities, and again UFOs don't make sense for godlike entities either.  I'd use this as a learning moment and go learn about why UFOs are ridiculous and what other explanations there are, because if you go around saying it when you get older people will laugh you out of the room with good reason.

The biggest one though: getting here from the nearest habitable planet would take hundreds of years one way.  FTL has been ruled out pretty conclusively.  People say "you can't go faster than the speed of light" but that's actually a lie to children and if you want to understand the real thing you need to learn about general relativity, which is very very complicated and the very little I know gives me a massive headache.  But basically you can leave home for Alpha Centauri and maybe you can work out how to accelerate so that time dilation for you lets you get there and back in a couple days--that's not likely, but let's play devil's advocate here--but it'll still be around 10 years from Earth's perspective.  It's not something you do casually.  If you decide to visit Earth from wherever, you need an incredibly good reason.  Casually traveling the galaxy isn't possible, and if you're coming from far enough away that our telescopes can't easily find you, it's going to be hundreds of years back home.  And, to do that invisibly would require absurd levels of tech.  Your deceleration on this end would be visible to every observatory on the planet even back in 1900.

So, assume you're that sort of civilization.  Somehow, you have antigrav tech and the ability to entirely cloak your UFO and whatever, a bunch of absurd stuff that probably can't be done.  You wouldn't visit us in secret because the one thing you still can't do is get here and back quickly.  If you wanted to conquer us for resources, you'd take a rock, aim it, and accelerate it to the speed of light and just not bother decelerating on this end--we can't defend against that at all and it'd kill off 99% of humanity while leaving all the metals and things here for the taking.  Hell, we couldn't even see it coming.  If you wanted a dialog, you'd just show up because if you had the tech to get here, there's literally nothing we could do to you at all, in the "I have a sword and you have a missile" sense.  If you wanted to experiment on us, you'd just take a city because again there's nothing we could do to stop you.  Aliens can be as alien as they want to be, but at the end of the day every society no matter how alien has resource constraints, and just sending one UFO is going to cost their equivalent of trillions of dollars when they could do everything they might want for half the price by just showing up in the open.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2021-04-11 19:31:11

@9
think this way. Our form of technology is new. Maybe the reason we are not getting responses is because they may not understand what we are transmitting. Maybe their tech works differently to ours. Just a theory

2021-04-11 19:40:50

Everyone has already pretty much stated my thoughts. There is no way, and I mean no way, that we are the only life in this universe. I find it absolutely impossible for that to be the case. There is something else out there. Where that life is? Who the hell knows. But it is out there. It has to be.

It seems that common sense is a lost art. I am here as a special type of artist to bring that beauty back. If you don't like my work, prove that yours is better. Paint me a beautiful picture of life. Otherwise, I have no interest.

2021-04-11 19:43:10 (edited by manamon_player 2021-04-11 19:43:33)

we'll descuvver it soon, then I can make sure

2021-04-11 20:02:35

@10
Not really.  It's highly unlikely that there are additional forms of energy which can be used as transmission mediums.  There are also ways to tell whether or not a signal is artificial without knowing what the content is, and those particular mathematics are prerequisites of things like computers.  You may not know what the other side is saying, but you can definitely know that the other side is saying something even if you have nothing else in common.  If the other side has the tech to build a transceiver, they have the tech to know they're receiving something artificial.  The problem with sending is that the sky is really really big.  The chances of us hitting something else alive that also has a transceiver aimed directly at us are pretty low, and if we did the round-trip time for the message is 50-100 years even in the best case.  If someone has responded, we might know in the lifetime of your grandchildren, provided that we also happen to still be listening in the right part of the sky.  For all we know someone got our messages, or will 20 years from now.  But that's not why these questions are open.

These questions are open because when we look we can't see life.  Life changes the atmosphere, which can be observed through telescopes.  We can actually tell what a planet's atmosphere contains using spectral analysis.  Life with a tech base is going to send out radio signals that are pretty unambiguously containing information--they might not be listening, they might even be long dead, but "hi I have TV" is pretty easy to tell.  We send out probes all the time and we're barely getting started, and yet somehow we haven't ever found even one probe from someone else--if there were lots of someone else's sending probes, well, it's really stupidly easy to detect Earth now, and we've been detectable for well going on 1000 years as an intelligent civilization and for well going on 20000 or maybe even 50000 as a planet that's definitely got some life, possibly even longer than that.  Any advanced tech civilization will have all sorts of orbiting things and whatnot that we should be able to see--we have some ridiculous number of satellites ourselves, and honest to god plans to colonize mars in the next century because why not?

And that's just the ones I know of with nothing beyond a casual interest at one point in the past.  "here are 10 different ways to detect life.  We know life is possible.  Watch what happens if we put some hydrocarbons in a jar and apply some electricity.  But they all come up blank" worries a lot of people, and rightly so.  Where is it?  Whether or not we can understand each other is the boring question.  We have enough physics knowledge to actively rule out certain tech branches now; we're no longer in the era of science where we'll discover how to build wormholes at any minute, along with telekinesis.  "They're so much more advanced than us that our sensors can't detect them" hasn't been on the table for a long time.  And yet...nothing.  Not even evidence that there was something in the past that died off.  The most optimistic answer is there's something that kills life before intelligence happens, and we got past it.  The neutral answer is that life just isn't so common as we think for some reason or other.  The "isn't that scary" answer is maybe we're still before whatever kills civilizations kills us.  The "this is a science fiction novel but we can't rule it out" answer is that we really shouldn't be so loud when it comes to things like radio signals because something is listening and actively kills off life.  No one knows, but everyone agrees that it doesn't make sense and that something in our understanding has to be wrong somewhere.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2021-04-11 20:29:16

I pretty much agree that there probably is life somewhere out there. The interesting part is, what that life might be. Consider the difference between us and a snail, do we even consider snails intelligent beings. The fact is, that humans and snails are quite simuler when you think about it, the same amino acids is the DNA, a common ancestor and probably many more things. Now imagine life on another planet, maybe with a completely different basis for life. It will probably mainly consist of the same elements as us, since they are some of the most common in the universe, but beyond that, it is probably impossible to tell.
The thing is, the chance of any life being close enough to us that we would be able to communicate with our current technology, and that the other lifeform is close enough to our intelligence level that they would know about us and/or care about us is verry hard to quantify. Our DNA is only about 2-3 percent different from some of the other great apes, and that small diiference is what has send us to the moon, who knows what another 2 percent difference could make. Maybe we would have colonized another planet, maybe we would have found other life. Maybe the other intelligent lifeforms are 5 percent different to us, that could mean the difference between dealing with intelligence beyond our understanding, in which case, they probably don't think of us as verry important, or they might just have discovered the use of simple stone tools. It is fascinating, but so verry, verry confusing and also quite unproductive to think about while trying to do your math homework... Oof...

We live on a hunk of rock and metal that circles a humdrum star that is one of 400 billion other stars that make up the Milky Way Galaxy which is one of billions of other galaxies which make up a universe which may be one of a very large number, perhaps an infinite number, of other universes. That is a perspective on human life and our culture that is well worth pondering.
Carl Sagan

2021-04-11 20:48:01

@13. Completely fair
my question is, how much do you know about the universe, at least in the scientific aspect? As a computer scientist, you know more about technology but think of this. Besides astronomers, our only form of interacting with outer space are the probes we've sent out. Take into consideration that the first telescope was launched into space in 1968, around 52-53 years ago. As a technology person with a knowledge of mathematics, would you say that that amount of time is enough to find civilizations? maybe they received our signal but maybe they aren't that advanced and they are either still in their stone age or renaissance period. I do agree with you that life maybe rare but I don't believe that other life doesn't exist

2021-04-11 20:51:22

I don't. And I find it particularly ridiculous because most of the people who believe in it and talk about it publicly are atheist skeptic assholes. I'm not saying all atheists/skeptics are assholes, I'm saying a lot of the people who talk about the existence of extra terrestrial life are that way.

Here's why I find it funny. The explanation is basically in the first post, but it gets expanded. There are billions of stars in the galaxy and billions of galaxies. Therefore, it is so highly improbable that we are the only life (often intelligent life) in the universe that other life simply has to be out there. That, my friends, is as much faith as anything these people decry as nonsense.
 
Understand, I think extra terrestrial life is entirely possible, particularly when you  get to the level of single cells and such. I just think the certainty a lot of the people who talk about in public have, e.g. people on science shows and such, have about it, and the contrast it often provides with their views on things like religion, the "paranormal" and so on is ridiculous, because those are the same kinds of arguments that people use for things, e.g. ghosts, reincarnation, that the aliens totes exist people turn around and say are super dumb.

It's nice that you've worked out probabilities and all. But unless we actually find some, you're guessing just as much as anybody else. Probability, however high, isn't a guarantee, well unless it's 1 I guess. So it's also kind of funny to me to see these people geek out and get all obsessive over something they're sure has to be there. But we've actually got no evidence of it whatsoever. But then Roberta says she had an encounter with her dead mom, and she's dumb, because there's no evidence of that, and no every culture in the world has stories of ghosts isn't evidence you moron, it's just evidence that our brains work the same way an thus trick us in the same way, duh!

I should also add, I don't care about ghosts either, just like I don't care about aliens. I'm more interested in the kinds of arguments people are making, and how one side dismisses arguments they then turn right around and use. For the record, I don't have any problems with aliens existing, or ghosts for that matter. It's just not something that keeps me up at night or gets me all excited. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I've never encountered either. I don't see any reason why either one couldn't exist, let's put it that way.

_____________________________
"rabbid dog  aggressive  attitude" since 3035. THE SYSTEM IS TRAP!

2021-04-11 20:55:56 (edited by titan_of_war 2021-04-11 20:57:38)

So, we have technology, but they have way way bettor technology. So first, they probably have tech that can just block hours so we can't track see or what ever. Because i mean, if they have UFO's and can fly in and out of those, probably have teleporter's. Then that's like hundreds of years of science for us. So their real, and people have seen them.
The problem is imo is that other people don't believe, and i no it sounds crazy like, hey i just got lifted in the air in a bright beam of light and put to sleep and a few hours later i woke up in my living room on my couch or something.
But they also have the tech to just do anything tbh, i mean they could probably mind control us. There probably watching us, they can hack us also probably. I mean, anything.
So what i'm trying to say, if they don't want us to find them. Then we won't find them.

Bach is an astronomer, discovering the most marvelous stars. Beethoven challenges the universe. I only try to express the soul and the heart of man."
― Frederic Chopin.

2021-04-11 21:02:37

@17 and why would any hypothetical aliens even bother to do this? Don't you think they'd have better things to do than fuck with humans? The *only* explanation could be like a child burning ants with a magnifying glass. But if there's a juvinile band of aliens out there flying around planets with UfOs just to play mind games, then maybe alien mon and alien pop need to put their locomotion appendage down and put a stop to the nonsense! :d

I used to be a knee like you, then I took an adventurer in the arrow.

2021-04-11 21:49:15

I completely agree with khomus on this one.

#FreeTheCheese
"The most deadly poison of our times is indifference. And this happens, although the praise of God should know no limits. Let us strive, therefore, to praise Him to the greatest extent of our powers." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

2021-04-11 22:37:26 (edited by Dark 2021-04-11 22:38:10)

My own question would be, if you were an advanced enough culture to actually travel between the stars, why the hell would you expend any time, resources or energy on such a pointless, stupid waste of Dna as humanity anyway?

Really, to me the major question is not "why haven't extra terrestrials contact humanity", but "why would they want to!"

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2021-04-11 22:57:51

@15
So the thing here is: FTL is impossible.  Weird new forms of energy we don't know about yet are maybe possible, in the sense that technically speaking we can't disprove it but science is pretty strongly leaning toward no.  You've got to keep in mind that at this point we're literally playing around with particles that only happen in stars and places like that, and even then only rarely.  Even if someone did have communication that's somehow mysterious and magical and doesn't need electromagnetic radiation, they'd also have had to get there without going through any of the other stages and be making an active effort to hide--and what about the other 9 civilizations?  The claim isn't "this one hid" if you want to go there, it's "somehow everyone but humanity did a thing that we couldn't do".  "they're mysteriously invisible" only works if you say "life is rare", and since you're saying life is rare either way it kind of doesn't matter.  Same thing if you keep missing it with your telescopes--the longer you look for something and don't find it, the rarer the thing is.  Doesn't mean you won't find it tomorrow, but the longer you go without finding it the more that tells you about how common it is and then you can start putting upper bounds on how many there have to be.

But I'm *not* saying it isn't out there.  One of the theories for example is that life is rare and that civilizations just last for maybe 50000 to 100000 years, for instance.  The universe is billions of years old.  If there's only a couple civilizations per galaxy every million years, it's possible that you just keep missing each other and by the time the next one is looking around the first one has been dead for long enough that we can't see it.  There's a lot of theories that explain this without saying no life, and as far as I'm aware, no life is all the way down at the bottom of the list, but at this point no one is saying it's common because even the most basic analysis of this stuff makes it really clear that it isn't.

If you want to know how I feel on it, finding extraterrestrial life tomorrow wouldn't change anything.  Even if we did, we can't share tech or media or anything like that.  "how do we build a cold fusion reactor?" goes out and we get the response 200 years later and in the meantime we just went off and built one, or it was too hard and we had to wait 200 years longer for the clarification.  Our art and literature probably wouldn't make sense to each other.  We could start go exploring the galaxy but not without something like brain uploading.  Short of that everything is too far away.  You effectively have to be immortal for it, and all the ways in which you can do it without being immortal mean that whoever leaves won't come back to anything they know--not just family, but nations, even the organization that launched your ship.  Quite literally, you may very well come back and have everyone go "wait, what ship?".  Lots of interesting destinations are a couple thousand years away, Earth time.  It might change religions a bit, but mostly people would probably just go "well god made them too" or whatever and it'd all blow over after a couple years.  I don't know for sure why we don't have every scientist or whatever on this problem, but I'm pretty sure this is why--if you already know it's possible, but you understand just how big the universe is and how little finding it would matter, going off and curing cancer or whatever is way more important.  Maybe 500 years from now, when we're all running on computers and you can send spaceships the size of a laptop out, that's when finding someone might change things for us.

If you haven't read the Wikipedia article on the drake equation and the great filter, those are good places to start if you want to get some idea on how people who know about this stuff think.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2021-04-12 01:39:28

The interesting thing for me is that we seem to keep pushing the first signs of life on our own planet further and further back in time, to the point where it seems like it may have started not long after it was possible for life to exist. So if it didn't take too long to get started (relatively speaking) then maybe it's not too difficult. But then again it could just have been a very unlikely chance event. That's the problem with just having n=1, there's no way to tell if we're average or an extreme outlier. When life does get started though it's probably not going to be easily extinguished. Just thinking of everything life on earth has survived, all the mass extinctions including snowball earth, plus the conditions in which some forms of life can survive, there probably isn't too much that can entirely wipe out all forms of life that doesn't also destroy the planet itself.
However, we haven't found any signs of our kind of intelligence before us, meaning we are likely the first after billions of years of life. So maybe that is the bottleneck. Maybe enough mass extinctions resetting life to more basic forms that can survive prevent evolution of enough intelligence to build a civilisation. I've read that it's estimated that in around 100 million years it won't be possible for us to exist on earth anymore. Meaning that we evolved relatively close to the limit of when we could, compared to the billions of years that it was possible.
Also, the universe is still relatively young compared to how old it's likely going to get. The earth is around 4.5 billion years old on the universe's roughly 14 billion years. And the formation of planets has not been possible for all that time, so earth has been around for a good chunk of the time earths could be around. If intelligence is rare maybe we are among the earliest and many will come after us.
But the universe is so big, it's entirely possible that there are intelligent and highly advanced beings billions of lightyears from us and there's no way we would ever know about each other. The sad thing is with the expansion of the universe that's just going to get more and more unlikely. Eventually in the future we'll only have the stars in our own galaxy cluster, with everything else expanding away from us too fast for light or anything else to reach us.

2021-04-12 09:48:52

@13
Have you read the Revelation Space series, by any chance?

@14
Speak for yourself! I like to think I'm doing my bit for the environment, although I don't do everything possible it is true. There are lots of environmentally-conscious people on Earth, but the only ones that make it into the media are the outspoken ones, and it's easier to demonise them so that Joe Public can keep buying plastic bottles from the corner shop to drink water from, and cheap plastic clothes that'll fall apart (but not biodegrade) in about 15 minutes, than to admit that maybe they've got a point, and maybe afore mentioned Joe Public and friends are selfishly screwing the planet for their kids because they really can't be bothered getting off their collective arses and walking for 10 minutes.

Also, if I'm being honest, many of the people who are trying to save the planet are going about it in completely the wrong way, blocking off meat counters and the like. That wins nobody. Although, that said, as you've pointed out, humans are inherently selfish, stupid, and self-interested, so maybe the correct course of action would be to just shoot anyone you see buying stuff with too much plastic in it, or driving their car less than a kilometre in the face.

@15
You're forgetting that telescopes have a limited field of vision. That's like pointing a laser out across the sea and hoping to blind someone when you don't know when or where they are on the opposing shoreline. Also, we have gravity detectors too, and probably loads of other stuff I'm not aware of.

@16
Sure, it's long been established that there are no fish in the sea because if you go for a swim, you might not notice any.

Also, there's mass hysteria and the human propensity to conflate and change stuff to suit their own ideologies ETC.

Probability isn't about faith, it's about "if you want to build a vehicle that rolls down a hill, using square wheels is a shit idea".

@17
I'm sorry mate, and this is coming from a place where I sincerely hope there's that kind of tech in the universe, because teleporters and arc ships and FTL and the ability to rig a black hole up to be the only computer civilisations would ever need again would be amazing, but you sound like someone who smoked far too much of the good shit once, or experienced Hypnogogia once, and then spoke to some like-minded folks, and your memories all fell into line because human memory is notoriously fallible, and nobody wants to be excluded from the herd.

Sure, let's take for a second all of that stuff is possible, but what's the point of it? Why build a galaxy-spanning civilisation only to spend your days burning the proverbial ants with a proverbial magnifying glass? (Wow, I just saw 18 already said that... Conspiracy anyone???)

@everyone
On this subject, this very morning, I was reading this. I think the aliens put it there to remind me that scientists don't know everything.

Also, this Easter, watch out for Jain eggs.

-----
I have code on GitHub

2021-04-12 10:22:38

I personally can't "believe" in any of the sides of the answer to the question "whether aliens exist", But here's a thing. If they exist, they might not even be intelligent enough to reach out. Or It's even possible that their way of existence differs from ours, let alone their way of communication. It's also possible that like the microscopic creatures that probably live in the acidic clouds of Venus, Other forms of life (Assuming there are any), can only live in circumstances that we can't even imagine. Aren't the microbes mentioned a bit earlier living in acidic clouds? big_smile
For now all we can do is throw theories around based on the very little knowledge that we have in hand about the universe and I admit I do enjoy listening to these theories and Youtube knows it too!

---
Co-founder of Sonorous Arts.
Check out Sonorous Arts on github: https://github.com/sonorous-arts/
my Discord: kianoosh.shakeri2#2988

2021-04-12 15:54:25

@23
yes, I've read those.  They're depressing and the author thinks the ending of the third one is "quite optimistic" which really says a lot about him.  But in terms of people thinking along those lines he's not the first.  I don't think it's particularly likely, however: if we can't see the aliens being destroyed, we'd probably see the destroyers.  But smart people do still think it's possible, and the thing is that we don't have enough info to really know, so if you're going to fairly discuss the topic you do have to include the viewpoint.

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Twitter: @ajhicks1992