2020-09-05 17:44:27

Seriously do you need to have the equations and/or diagrams in front of you for it to make sense? Because many, many smart people agree that it totally makes sense, but no explanation I've found conveys this in a way I can understand.
The simplest version makes FTL sound like you're Blue Skidooing into the image of what is in the distance, which I am pretty sure is not how it works and is probably a bad explanation made by Relativistic Greenbelts.

There's two scenarios worth making sense of. I sorta-kinda get the wormhole variant: accelerate one end of the wormhole to Relativistic speeds, let the ends get far enough out of sync that travel time through the wormhole cannot compensate. It still feels like there's a section labeled "then it works this specific way, but we're skipping the explanation", but I will assume that the explanation for why out-of-sync wormholes mess with time is clear in the math.
What about the other, more popular example? I can't exactly summarize it, because every version I've read is too confusing to follow. But it apparently also works with only FTL communication, rather than shenanigans with accelerating at a certain point from a certain frame then turning around or <c:\windows\media\ding.wav>.
So I guess there are three examples, but the underlying principal is that "c is the speed of causality; don't question it."
Can someone at least get the examples to make sense?

  1. Wormholes, accelerate one end and get them out of sync, then put them closer together than the amount of time they're out of sync minus transit time. Still confusing but halfway comprehensible.

  2. Take your warp drive from A to B, then go back to A. Surprise: you went back in time somehow. I am completely lost.

  3. You have an ancible. Or However you spell that. You can call someone on Mars, and communicate with no lag. Somehow you're calling the past / future. How does this make any sense?

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"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
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2020-09-05 19:34:39

There's an absolutely amazing book called "The Physics of Star Trek" that you should read. It goes into detail about how FTL, the transporter and so on work. Chapter 3 describes wormholes, time travel and such -- its utterly fascinating and I'd highly recommend it. The book is dated by a tiny margin, but its still relevant today.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2020-09-05 19:54:12

I've read it; it's pretty good.

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2020-09-05 21:14:31

The reason you're having trouble with this is that it's not actually possible to violate causality, which is generally what we mean by time travel.  There's relatively complicated configurations of wormholes and stuff that allow information to go back in time, but as soon as you start playing with it physics says haha no and it breaks, by current theory.

To start getting a grip on this stuff, stop modeling time as a fixed thing, and start modeling it as who can observe what when.

The key insight w.r.t. wormholes is that if the input end is 5 days old, i.e. we just made it and let it sit in the lab, we can move the far end around with relativistic effects.  If you send the wormhole out and back on a spaceship, you "see" time from the Earth end from the spaceship's perspective, because the ends of wormholes always have the same time frame even if the objects they're on don't.  If my spaceship is magic and can go out and back so that I spend an hour on it and a year happens on Earth, the observer at the Earth end watches me for an hour in their time frame as well as mine,but I come back a year later.  If I find out World War III happened, I can just shout that through my wormhole at you because you've only been watching for an hour because the endpoints of the wormhole always have the same time frame, and time travel.

But by current theory wormholes themselves require things that literally don't exist save as equations and anything you're going to do that might violate causality also requires even more things that don't exist, and in general how this works in Sci-fi is we just mandate that wormholes always have the same time frame no matter where the ends are because it's fun.

Ansibles are also wormholes, basically.  In general anything that lets you make a "telephone" call is a wormhole because by the nature of that both ends have to be in the same time frame irregardless of what's happening to them: two screens connected by magic instant FTL wire also let light through in the same way a wormhole does, ergo information can do all the same things it does with wormholes.

Warp drives are even more speculative, if a warp drive itself allows for time travel it's because the authors picked one of the theories of physics that both allows for warp drives *and* allows those warp drives to violate causality, or made up their own: it's grounded just enough in physics that it's hard-ish sci-fi but we don't have any experimental data backing it up or anything, just a bunch of people doing math saying "You know, what if this equation..." and a bunch of authors saying "Hey, that'd make a neat story".  What's meant by time travel with warp drives more traditionally is this: when you arrive wherever you're going, you can turn your telescope around and see the ship just leaving Earth, even though you already arrived: you're effectively in your past, and from your perspective, at that instant, there's two of you.

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2020-09-05 21:22:48

If I am at a different time in the past how could I see myself in the future  and still the most popular question. if I go to the past where I am not born yet and kill my parents what will happen to my future version. If I kill my parents then who am I really. So I go to the past kill my parents and now I shouldn't be exist neither in the past or the future

2020-09-05 21:42:30

I think it’s because Einstein stated in his theory of general relativity that time is essentially another way of measuring dimension. Meeting time is something you can compare directly to an XYZ coordinate plane. If I’m wrong though, please let me know

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2020-09-05 22:16:55

@5, there are many, many theories on what happens when a paradox is created. No one knows, obviously, and I really hope we never do discover time travel because that's just far, far too dangerous for me to be comfortable. One theory though is that if you go back and change the past and it results in an alteration of the future in such a way that you no longer exist within that future, you cease to exist. I've read theories that if two or more of an individual exist in the same time frame then all of them get wiped out because only one version of you can exist at any given moment. Don't get too hung up on thinking about time travel though; its a mental trap if there ever was one, and the human mind was never constructed to be able to comprehend time travel -- or, even, time itself. Time, and time travel by extension, is a logic minefield.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2020-09-05 22:18:27

@5
Paradoxes aren't possible even in the most generous theories for how this might be done.  If you can kill your grandfather the time machine won't work.  Either we can't build it, or if we could, you just...won't be able to.

@6
Time isn't a dimension.  Everything you probably know about Einstein's theory of relativity is a lie to children.  Everything I know about it is only a lie to slightly older children.  It's lies to children all the way to your physics PHD.

In high school physics it's helpful to model time as a dimension, but it's just a model, not the actual thing.  "time" is actually a human construct.  Outside what is known as newtonian mechanics, i.e. no relativity etc, time very much stops being a thing as you know it.  In so much as the universe "has" time, it's only because most physical reactions aren't reversable even if you have a bunch of energy to throw at the problem.

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2020-09-05 22:20:02

@7
I have yet to hear of a reputable scientific theory that allows for violating causality.  People aren't even on theories as to what might happen if you did because they aren't even onto theories that might let you do it.

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2020-09-06 00:18:15

I think the idea people get from FTL time travel is a half truth. Light allows us to see our surroundings in this moment of what we would consider *time*. If you travel faster than light, then you would essentially *see* the past, in much the same way that when we look at the stars were actually seeing hundreds to thousands of years into the *past* because of the time its taken that light to travel from that star to us here. Think of it like internet latency, like the delay from the ISS when holding calls, or the time it takes a sonar ping to reach you. If you were to *see* that past though, its doubtful you could interact with it as it would have no physical mass, being merely a light projection.

But on the theory of time travel, if parallel universes are a thing, whose to say if you were to travel "back in time" that your not just adjusting your own multiverse position within reality as opposed to altering any definitive timeline in any way? Theres also the strangeness of Quantum Mechanics, entanglement and existing in two points in spaced simultaneously, among other things. Whatever reality is, its probably not what we imagine it is now, based on our current understanding. Life is strange, and mutable.

I recall a sci-fi book I read once, can't quite remember the name, I think it was called "The Sphere", but not like the movie by the same name. In it, the world discovers a strange sphere buried in the arctic, and they send a team of scientists in. Inside were curved corridors with indistinguishable doorways all the way down, like a maze. So, they mark the walls, use ropes, and split up to cover more ground. What they didn't realize however, is that each doorway lead through to a different dimensional reality, that there were an infinite number of corridors and versions of themselves going through the ship, and by the time they realized it, they had no idea how to get back to their own reality, having hoplessly lost their way.

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2020-09-06 01:56:20

Entanglement is strange but not many worlds parallel universes strange.  That's effectively just a way to make the trade-off "I know what this particle is doing" for "These two particles will act the same way".

You can understand things like Grover's algorithm with a hell of a lot of thought and math that's barely beyond high school honors level. Unfortunately I don't still have the accessible blog post and it's been too long since I cared to look for me to be able to explain it.

In general, in terms of physicists knowing the limits of the universe, they do.  There's not an extra layer of mystery.  You can stack a bunch of stuff up on current physics and just keep going without evidence forever, but you can also do that with religion among other things, and I promise you can find a theoretical physicist somewhere who will say whatever you want to hear.  that's not to say that theoretical physics is valueless or not science, but in general it's a branch of science that is very much the kind of thing where you can run away with it and sound smart and no one will question, so you have to be careful who you listen to.

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2020-09-06 05:12:16

Time is an illusion.

I am a divine being. I can be called a primordial deity, but that might be pushing it, a smidge. I am the only one of my kind to have ten tails, with others having nine. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I have ascended my own race.

2020-09-06 06:12:32

Time being a human construct has always made the most sense to me. But then the one thing that I don't get is how does gravity influence time? Why does time pass more slowly the closer you get to a more massive object? That doesn't seem to fit with it just being entirely something that we made up. I've also never really been able to understand what gravity itself actually is. Something about mass bending the fabric of space around it, and I guess I can understand if that does happen that if you were moving how space being changed would effect your movement, but why would you still move towards the object if you are at rest.

2020-09-06 06:54:43 (edited by camlorn 2020-09-06 18:48:04)

@13
Imagine that you have a rubber sheet stretched across a frame like a drum, and you take a big rock and put it down.  How the sheet bends isn't the worst analogy for what happens to spacetime when you get a bunch of atoms together.

Unfortunately out at this level you're into "because the math says" territory. I looked into taking classes in this out of curiosity, my university didn't offer them until a Masters degree in Physics.

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2020-09-06 09:14:33

OK, what's happening in this situation?
- I have a low-mass wormhole to another universe. Assume that the physics of this universe do not break anything that the physics of our universe wouldn't.
- I place this portal in orbit around Neptune (4.5billion km ... that'd be terameters, wouldn't it?) from the sun.
- I have a fusion-powered spaceship that I use to fly to Uranus (2.88tm from the sun, but there's no telling where the planets are relative to each other at this time, so let's round to 2tm). I have onboard what is necessary to open another portal to the same universe.
- A very rough attempt at calculating tells me that using the constant-acceleration method, the ship would lose somewhere between 0 and 120s to time dilation, to put it in horribly imprecise terms. Since we're accelerating the whole time, it's confusing and I haven't had to do time dilation problems since 2006, hence the huge range. Let's just go with a pessimistic "the ship is 60s younger than the portal at Neptune" and move on, even though I'm pretty sure there's way, way less dilation because I didn't accurately deal with the acceleration.
- I open a new portal in orbit around Uranus.
- The Far sides of the portals, in the other universe, are co-orbiting a brown dwarf, close enough that a signal can travel between them in well under 60s (aka, they're within 1 light-minute of each other).
- Exactly what steps would result in Neptune sending Uranus information from Uranus's future, given this setup? Does that change if we adjust the amount of time dilation, or the distance between the far portals?
- What if the far universe is in an apparently faster frame, such that time appears to pass twice as fast there from our perspective?

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    George... Don't do that.

2020-09-06 10:32:24

@15, such a situation is impossible. Wormholes, as we understand them today, do not operate the way you describe. A wormhole can connect two points in time and space, but only because spacetime is curved. If you travel through a wormhole and go 5 minutes back in time, you don't actually travel through time; it just appears like you do. The problem with your scenario is that any wormhole you open would either collapse nearly immediately, possibly destroying you in the process, or would be constantly shifting from one point in spacetime to another. It wouldn't remain on a single point in spacetime long enough for you to fully travel through it, and even if it did, you'd be crushed to less than tiny particles before you even managed to reach the center of the wormhole. And that's discounting the energy requirements to generate enough gravitational forces to counteract those generated by a black hole to create a stable orbit.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2020-09-06 12:54:20

@14 I've heard the analogy of a heavy ball creating a dent in a sheet causing everything else close enough to roll towards it. That doesn't really make sense to me though, isn't that because of gravity that that happens in the first place? I doubt that would still happen in a 0 gravity environment. So I feel like it's explaining gravity by saying it's like gravity. Or am I missing something? But I guess the actual explanation is probably too technical, if there is even a generally excepted explanation at all.

2020-09-06 14:19:22 (edited by CAE_Jones 2020-09-06 14:27:40)

@16: Are you saying that the achronistic communication is impossible, or that the two wormholes are impossible? Or something else? Because my general assumption was to go with Hawking's "if you have a closed time-like curve, it either explodes or collapses into a black hole" conjecture. So you can rewrite the question as "what will cause this system to break, and what will not?"

@17: yeah, that analogy always bugged me for the same reason. I instead like to think of matter as ... something like standing waves in spacetime. Instead of an object on a sheet, bunch up a part of the sheet into a particular shape. This pulls on the sheet around it. That's not quite the right picture (try it with a bedsheet, and you'll notice the problems right away), and the whole Dark Energy thing suggests that spacetime need not be finite. Maybe thinking of spacetime as a 3+1d guitar string would help, but down that road lies String Theory, and let's not even get started on that.

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"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2020-09-06 19:17:33

@18
Everyone here is missing the point. As soon as you say "and now another universe", or "and now a wormhole" you are so far into theoretical physics that you get to pick your theory.  The authors pick the theories that are fun.  I'm not sure why you're confused, you're trying to understand literally impossible pop physics that people adopt for the sake of good stories.

Wormhole time travel is a thought experiment, an interesting consequence of choosing a particular set of equations and saying "huh, if I decide the universe works this way then...".  In that particular case the underlying assumption is that the two ends of the wormhole are always as oldest as the youngest end.  In that particular case, we have:

1. A wormhole at Earth that's 1 hour old.
2. A wormhole on a spaceship traveling at the speed of light that's also 1 hour old.
3. The universe outside the spaceship that just returned to Earth 10000 years in the future.

All of these are valid time frames.  The impossible part is that the wormhole entirely disregards 3 like it doesn't exist.  Poke our head outside, come back in, shout down your hour-old wormhole, and it's gone 9999 years, 364 days, and 23 hours back in time.  Done.  There is nothing more to it than that.

Except that it's impossible to actually do ever because doing it requires negative mass and negative energy which don't exist, and the entire thing can be used to violate the conservation of energy just by charging a battery and sending it through the time loop over and over, and in general this is just some interesting theoretical physics that some people did and then disregarded because that's how theoretical physics works.  You generate some equations over and over, some of them eventually align with experimental evidence, the rest sit on a giant bookshelf gathering dust.

For your "and now there's 2 universes" complicated topology case, other than the fact that it's impossible, if you want to posit what happens go get a PHD in Physics, talk to 10 theoretical physicists, and you'll get 10 different answers.

But the real answer, as far as you're concerned is "because the author said it works, yay".  You're not getting answers that satisfy you because there literally is no answer that doesn't boil down to authors deciding for the sake of a story.

@17
The rubber sheet isn't gravity. It's just a metaphor.  The actual math for this uses tensors, which are like the big brother of a matrix that went out and got a life, and I don't pretend to understand it in the slightest.

If you're looking for an answer to the question "Why does gravity bend spacetime", the answer is "because".  The mistake people make with physics is assuming there has to be a reason.  Certain aspects of the universe imply other aspects of the universe, sure, but "why gravity" doesn't have an answer.  Gravity bends spacetime because gravity bends spacetime, end of story.

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2020-09-06 21:47:48

I believe the mathematical models demonstrate time dilation which is not the same as time travel.  Time dilation is how time passes relative to your own location.  I hope I didn't confuse the problem more but I bring this up because dilation is more than simple theory.  We can prove it.  A clock on the top floor of your house will run a bit different than one in the basement do to the use of gravitational waves on time.

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2020-09-06 23:03:57

I'm not sure that the time dilation on the scale of a few meters would be measurable before the sun burns out, but dilation a few thousand meters up has definitely been measured, yes. Maybe I missed something more impressive, and they measured the dilation between the top of a skyscraper and the basement, or between the top of the Andes and Death Valley, but I haven't heard of that.
Time dilation is also used in particle accelerator experiments. You can get low mass particles pretty close to c in those things, which means that time slows for them, which is the only way we can measure some of their decays because otherwise they'd happen too quickly to detect.
But time dilation and FTL=time-travel are not quite the same thing, if related. It's more about the weirdness of reference frames. The general rule for minimizing the risk of addressing time-travel is to privilege a reference frame, because Relativity would otherwise result in FTL events preceeding their causes in some reference frames. I still don't get how, though. The only explanations that make any sense are indistinguishable from "it's an illusion caused by looking at it a certain way, but Relativity says that makes it real, so if you did this it would 'violate causality". and I'm pretty sure that's not the actual point.
Like, I'm given the impression that if you could handwave in a way to skip to the fast side of c, Relativity would have it that you'd go back in time by accelerating to relativistic speeds, then going FTL, then stopping and turning around to return to your point of origin. And I have no idea how that's supposed to make sense. I don't remember which equations are relevant, only that they probably involve puting 1-v^2/c^2 in a denominator at least once.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2020-09-07 00:53:08

@21
It doesn't make sense because you can't.  That's the problem here.  The mathematics breaks and starts outputting nonsense and to get the math to jump to those sorts of "and now you divide by zero" situations requires, in most cases, infinite energy.

What's definitely not allowed is time travel relative to your own reference frame.  Everyone's 100% on that as far as I know.

What's almost certainly not allowed but there's a tiny, tiny possibility is that an observer way off over there who's not in the position to communicate with you can observe you through their telescope and observe something that looks like time travel.  More precisely they can communicate with you and say "Hey I saw time travel" but only after it can't influence anything.  And when I say tiny possibility, again, I mean mountain of theoretical physics somewhere with no grounding in reality.

There is no privileged reference frame, just reference frames that might be able to observe time travel, and understanding these topologies in detail requires more math than anyone here has.

But in general: you're asking us to explain how something impossible works.  It's impossible.  It doesn't.  I don't know where you got  the idea that it did so firmly that several of us saying this is still leaving you hoping for an explanation of the impossible thing.  If you want a more productive discussion, you need better constraints: are you trying to understand the model from a specific book or something?  Otherwise this is like asking how the perpetual motion machine works and not taking it can't as an answer--and, to be very on point, all time travel is equivalent to a perpetual motion machine, plus the added ability to solve any mathematical problem which can be represented in a finite number of bits in constant time (which is why I think the terminator is stupid, whoever gets time travel first should have been absolute gods of the universe instantly).

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2020-09-07 09:19:25

So looking up why FTL implies time-travel on Google, the first arXiv article to come up claims the opposite... but has the same problems I get trying to understand in general:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1407.2528.pdf
I ran into at least two spots in there where I got lost regarding how they got from A to B. I'm too confused about the first one to be sure, but the second seems like it would be easier to follow with the diagrams. As in, the problem is they randomly switch from explaining things, to pointing to a picture and referencing things in it, without ever explaining what the things in it are.
Somehow, I doubt having all the diagrams in accessible format will resolve the confusion, though. The PBS Spacetime video everyone likes to link did a decent job describing what the diagrams would be like, and it was still like "huh?".

I actually do have issues with the linked paper beyond just the inaccessible diagrams. There's a lot of "let's take as axiomatic that ..." for constructing the scenario, and it kinda feels like they gesture toward Lawrence contraction but mostly ignore it (but maybe that's not the case and I'd know that if I could see it?). It's also written to be as readable as possible without doing a deep-dive into advanced math and physics jargon, which both helps with comprehensibility and makes it harder to identify exactly where it might or might not go wrong.
Idk, maybe if I had coordinates for each labeled point / line / line segment / curve on one of these diagrams, maybe I could reconstruct it in an accessible format ... but I don't want to bug someone into providing those, then go to the trouble of interpreting it, only to wind up exactly as confused as before. hmm

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2020-09-07 16:14:48

watch back to the future, it explains everything

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2020-09-08 12:54:00

Go read Cowl by Neal Asher. Probably won't help much, but it's a damn good story, and you'll have bigger things to ponder by the time you've done with it.

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