2020-05-20 19:42:26

Please bear in mind that no, this is not an ultimatum. I neither have the authority to issue such a thing, nor the desire to do so without a full staff consult first.

What I am saying is that Pragma has decided that it is more important to him to maintain his game's pirated assets than to comply with this community's stance on copyright. Given that this community has been one of the ways that his game has achieved popularity, I personally have a bit of a problem with this stance, but he's free to maintain it if he wishes.

That said, we have taken a firmer stance on anti-piracy in the last year or so, and one of the things constantly brought up is that stuff like Crazy Party has gotten a free pass. I'm getting mighty tired of this. You want other things to get a free pass, so you cite that Crazy Party still has community support as a means of saying that other stuff, like the vault, should also have community support. And when it is even gently suggested that we withdraw support for Crazy Party, everybody freaks out.
Essentially, Crazy Party is your ace in the hole. It is the one thing you can invoke to try and prove hypocrisy, because you scream too loudly when we talk about not supporting it anymore. That's extremely convenient, and it needs to end because the argument isn't even an argument anymore. it's just a means by which you can supposedly prove incompetence or inconsistency.

And you know what? You're right. It's inconsistent. That's what this thread was trying to address. That's why I advocated that we stop supporting the game until or unless it met our standards, which it currently does not. I would far rather see it meet reasonable standards than simply be blacklisted, but I think one or the other should happen, because now the developer has been told that the community would do virtually all of the work for him, and he still refuses.

I feel that one of two things should happen at this stage:

1. Before anything else, Crazy Party should be brought to the attention of the companies whose assets it is using, and proof of this communication should be provided so that there is no chance that someone simply makes a claim without actually following through. Sad as it is, I could see some folks claiming they contacted Nintendo, only for it later to come out that the supposed email had been a fake. This would, of course, serve as a no-risk means of satisfying this requirement, but under false pretenses, and we can't have that. If reasonable time goes by where these companies do not respond in any way, then the game will receive full community support until such time that definitive legal action is taken against it. In other words, if the big companies truly don't care, or see it as a media horrorshow, this would pretty much guarantee safety for the game in perpetuity and would silence all of the arguments about its legality. license holders would have had a reasonable chance to object and, having not taken it, we could simply continue as before.
2. If this option is refused, and if Pragma insists on not allowing the game to have its copyrighted assets removed, then having been given ample chance to right the situation, Crazy Party should lose all audiogames.net community support until such time that its copyrighted assets are removed. This would mean that simply discussing the game is perfectly okay. Passing out links to decks, since they're just text files, would be okay. We'd probably ask you to share save files privately, and we'd ask you not to encourage people to play Crazy Party in public. We'd have to take the DB entry down, and we'd have to enforce rule 3 roughly the same way we're doing with the vault right now.

This is my personal stance. I do not speak for the staff team at this point. For those of you asking why we can't just go back to the way it was, and continue providing an exception? Well, you have the folks who use CP as a scapegoat to thank for this. When we have legitimate grounds to remove support for something, I'm tired of having this thrown in our collective faces.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-05-20 19:50:46 (edited by Lucas1 2020-05-20 19:51:11)

Like I said, CP doesn't need audiogames.net anymore because it has its own fanbase (English Skype group with over 200 participants and many other non-English communities) so this is kinda like a radio station saying that they won't play a particular song anymore if the artist doesn't change its message, which would change the whole song and probably isn't worth it considering streaming services outweigh radio these days anyways.

2020-05-20 19:59:26

I also repudiate utterly the notion that Crazy Party isn't Crazy Party without pirated assets. That's just silly.
The game succeeds or fails based on its games, both battle and board. While I admit that the retro feel is cool and all, if your argument boils down to "it's not the same unless we have stolen sounds", then you're tacitly saying that the game isn't really even its own entity. That's a pretty big slap in the face to Pragma, honestly.
If the game had had different but similarly retro sound and music from the start, are you trying to tell me it would have failed? Get real.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-05-20 20:05:23

then, i'm 100% sure that manamon has some coppy writed songs, making it paid wont proof anything, if you're gunna think of CP than put manamon in mind

2020-05-20 20:17:37

Can you prove that Manamon has stolen those songs? It absolutely does have assets from various places, and the credits will list those places. But to my understanding, everything it's got was either made in house, paid for, or is legally allowed under some sort of use agreement.

While I agree that copyrighted assets are never a good thing, I think the reason that CP comes under such heavy fire is because instead of talking about 2-3 assets, we're talking about literally hundreds. As in, the fair majority of its musical assets and probably a fair portion of its sound effects as well. That's pretty unprecedented.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-05-20 20:21:44

no, it is not a slap, because that escence was made intentionally, pragma is a mario party fan. it is part of the game's escence since it's creation, because it was meant to be like that

2020-05-20 20:24:19

crediting something does not allow someone to use it as they wish with out buying, lets say, you made a song that's paid, and I come and get it for free, i'll credit you just to make peaple thing its leagle, does it really leagle? not

2020-05-20 20:34:14 (edited by Pineapple Pizza 2020-05-20 20:36:39)

Meatbag, you have still not proven your stance. If Aaron Baker was using copyrighted material illegally then simply charging money for the game is a crime and you are accusing him of doing so.

I would rather listen to someone who can actually play the harmonica than someone who somehow managed to lose seven of them. Me, 2019.

2020-05-20 20:36:04

Again, Meatbag, if you have proof, I'm all ears. You're quite right, of course; just claiming you have permission doesn't actually mean that you have the right to use the asset, especially if it's a paid product you're spreading about.

I say it's a slap in the face because what it's literally saying is that the game's merit is not in its playability, it's in its sound design. But while the sound design is undeniably a part of the appeal, I have trouble believing that the -primary reason - that word primary is important, take note, please - that people play CP is for its sound design. If it had terrible mini-games or battle cards, it wouldn't work. If its connectivity was bad, it wouldn't fly. No. It works because it gets players to compete against each other, or in some cases team up with each other. It works because it plays to both the card-battle and Mario Party aesthetic. The sound design is cool, but it's extra. You could remove it, replace it with something else, and CP would still be a very good game.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-05-20 20:37:47

i'm not aquzeing anyone, I sed to keap manamon in mind, not remove it, and eavin if I sed is true I cant proof my self since I dont know about the song names, and how is making a game paid a crime? that does'nt make sense...

2020-05-20 20:40:18 (edited by Pineapple Pizza 2020-05-20 20:41:17)

@meatbag

If the game is using copyrighted stuff illegally that they have no right to use, making the game paid is a crime because they have no rights to make money off of the assets being used illegally.

I would rather listen to someone who can actually play the harmonica than someone who somehow managed to lose seven of them. Me, 2019.

2020-05-20 20:42:48

I could keep talking about that, but I feel that my english skills are not enough to express what I want to say properly now, and were going nowhere, so lets, again, come back to the post's original topic, whitch at this moment, if I'm understanding correctly, is that people decided to do the sound work anyway

2020-05-20 20:46:17

Unfortunately, if Pragma's not moving on this, then doing the sound work seems kind of pointless now. Obviously I can't stop people and don't want to discourage them. I just don't see a point.

Meatbag, just a quick heads-up: casting shade on something and then refusing to try and prove it is a pretty slimy thing to do. It's like, "Hey, take a look at this maybe suspicious thing. Why is it suspicious? Well it may not be but you should look anyway because...well because I said so". No, no, and no. Do you have any indication that Manamon or Manamon 2 have copyrighted assets to which Aaron Baker has no distributive rights? If so, feel free to bring them up. If not, all you're really doing is trying to make Aaron Baker look bad, or take some of the heat off CP, neither of which is helpful.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-05-20 20:47:42 (edited by Pineapple Pizza 2020-05-20 20:48:13)

This is true. Whether the work is stopped or continued, I feel this topic has given the community a lot to think about.

I would rather listen to someone who can actually play the harmonica than someone who somehow managed to lose seven of them. Me, 2019.

2020-05-20 20:49:49

Somehow I doubt the database editors will agree to this stupidity, but let's wait and see. In fact, I would say that nobody not named Jayde thinks this is necessary. I don't care either way. If you feel like that is the right thing to do, remove the game from here indeed. But I would like to ask one thing, since this is really curious right now. Sharing decks is fine, but you would ask that the save files be passed privately? What is the logic behind that?

So long, old audiogames forum, where you felt free to release a new game.

2020-05-20 20:54:40

Carter has already come in here saying that it might be worthwhile to consider reporting CP to Nintendo. This, again, does not mean any decision is being made, so don't take it as such, but I am not the only one who cares about this. I just happen to be the loudest.

But you have yourself to thank for this, not me. You toss this game in our faces every time any other copyright issue comes up. You and others, of course; you aren't alone. So in the interest of minimizing hypocrisy, it makes sense that something has to be done. Because if we do something, we're horrible for removing CP or threatening it or whatever. And if we don't, then we're horrible hypocrites who are using personal bias to make decisions. It's lose-lose. Isn't that fun?

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-05-20 20:56:23

so with that being said, shouldn't yall admins go through "every, single, game" in this data base, and look to see if there are copyrighted sounds?
GMA Games,  PCS, Light Tech Interactive, Jim Kitchen, SwampAprone, USA Games, ESP Softworks/Adora/Draconis Entertainment, Jim Kitchen, Drive from Audio Games proper, BPC Programs, DreamTech Interactive, BSC Games, ... Yall get the idea.


Me wonders if this forum needs a history clean up or something... Or the site in general.

I am Trenton Matthews, those above are my thoughts, I shall log out now.

Good luck.

2020-05-20 21:00:26

oh yeah what about Jim Kitchen, ? all of the peaple who playd it agree's with me, its filld with coppy writed sounds, and also youtubers when play/stream it try's there best to make it play as les music as pocible

2020-05-20 21:03:49

Not fun, but certainly what you deserve. That's how respecting copyrights works.  You want it to be easy don't you? Too late to think about winning and losing. You honestly think it will stop once you deal with CP? Because I will certainly tell you it won't. I will definitely be one of the members requesting the exact same treatement to all the other games in the database, nevermind if it is one or 100 sounds. Guess what? The database of games would substantially decrease. I already managed to bring more than 5 examples just at the top of the head, and going through the database you will certainly find a lot more. Once you deal with one, you are required to equally deal with all games. So good luck. Fun isn't it? Thanks for attempting to make a decision that will potentially destroy the work of building the largest database of audiogames on the Internet, the work that was going on for years just because of a potential issue that never happened, but it might now.

2020-05-20 21:31:54 (edited by queenslight 2020-05-20 21:44:34)

Back for two more things then I'll fly out for good. Liam's forum needs some love anyways:

1. There are 761 games in the AG data base as of now (counting the web based games along with audio games.)

2. If you're gonna go after Crazy Party, go after Mush-Z for Alter Aeon as well.
Yall know there's Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy Music in there right?
Not even sure why yall even have a DB entry for it now that I think of it...

I would love to read what the devs of the major AG companies would say if they saw this "craziness" (pun intended.)

Okay, off I go again... Good luck!

2020-05-20 21:35:44

Pragma is the only one doing a good job defending his side. The rest of you trying to defend his side are sucking at it. So even though your side has potentially good arguements to be made, pragma is the only one making me stop and think. However my position has not changed yet

2020-05-20 21:36:18

Well then, this is a nice mess we have all found Ourselves in.

I would rather listen to someone who can actually play the harmonica than someone who somehow managed to lose seven of them. Me, 2019.

2020-05-20 21:56:18

this topic never seems to get old.  I believe that its to late to change the sounds as it has been all put together, and pgagma said he wasnt gonna change it.  If this project is persued, it would be a waste of time as no changes are gonna be maid. really think about it before you go and throw money around. the dev stands where he stands on his project. keep that in mind. and i don't think he is gonna make the option for changing sound pack with in the game.

Their is no such thing as a master.  One is never done learning, and those who claim to be a master at something are far from becoming one!!

2020-05-20 22:02:14

You know how sometimes we pounce on a particular breach of copyright right away, while others slide under the radar for awhile? This goes for games and copyrighted assets, VM stuff, audio description, etc. If we see it, we do something about it, but we are not making an active effort to comb through absolutely everything to retroactively update it.

That's what has been happening, and will continue to happen.

If you want to alert us to known issues of pirated assets, you are forcing those examples into the spotlight. In other words, you are 1. making our lives harder (which is fine, by the way) and 2. also alerting us to potential copyright and piracy-related transgressions.

Basically, for every game or asset that's gone unexamined before now that you bring to us, you will be partially responsible when and if we have to stop supporting it. You'll try and blame it on us, but the reality is that if you hadn't gone and dug it up, we might not have bothered processing it. Take Jim Kitchen's stuff, for example; the man has died, and there is no way that he can update his own work, so there is no chance of him being in any way able to comply with a request to update his audio assets.

Nidza07, you want to make us look like horrible people for processing hundreds of audio games or whatnot, but if you do what you say you're going to, then it will be you who shares equal responsibility. After all, the forum has historically taken a "don't ask, don't tell" stance on such things, particularly in free titles. If you don't tell us about it, or it isn't super obvious, then we probably don't care yet, and if bad stuff ends up happening (as truly unlikely as that is, I admit) there is plausible deniability. We did not know that resource x had copyrighted assets in it because nobody told us and it is beyond the scope of a small handful of people to process every single game in such a huge database.

I'm going to say this with no bark on it, so to speak.

If someone reading this legitimately wants to help us clean up copyright issues, that's cool. It's a huge task, it's not something I enjoy doing, but if we want to maintain rule 3, it's something we can't just indefinitely ignore.

However, in your case, Nidza07, as well as at least one other person I could name but for now will not, you're clearly not doing this because you want to help the community. You're basically saying that if a game you like gets trashed, then other games should get trashed as well. Not because you actually believe it should happen, but because you can't stand that your game of choice contains literally hundreds of pirated assets and stands so clearly in the spotlight. It's not good will, it's vengeance. And vengeance is no way to try and assist a community. I know a temper tantrum when I see it, bro, and this "I'm going to report everything, see how you like that" definitely counts, because you don't agree with copyright and you don't agree with our support of rule 3.
Again, you're trying to bluff. I just want it out here, understood loud and clear, that if you start this process, you're partially responsible for it. If you force us to escalate, then no one is going to pass the buck and blame us.

Because the alternative is a free-for-all where copyright is just a suggestion, and owner rights really don't matter unless someone arbitrarily decides they matter. And no, we are not going back to that.

So if you want to up the ante, go ahead. But I, for one, won't feel a need to take all the blame for what happens as a result, because every new thing you force us to deal with, instead of letting us stumble onto it on our own, is one more thing the community may lose, in part because of a dev who used copyrighted assets and in part because of you, who couldn't leave an admittedly imperfect system alone and had to try and play for all or nothing.

A quick edit, because I just thought of this: even if someone tried to report Jim Kitchen's games, I doubt that would go anywhere. They're just sort of floating around, and the creator is dead. Even if a company got hold of this and didn't like what he did, they're going to have a really difficult time prosecuting a dead man, and knowing this, I don't see them wanting to bother. CP and KitchensInc are in totally different ballparks. And no, that doesn't make using copyrighted sounds okay, but it also doesn't mean they're totally equal either.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-05-20 22:23:37

Ah, right, so that is how it's going to work. Of course I like Crazy party and that's why I said that. I of course hate all the other audiogames so as a result will report anything else copyrighted. More seriously, sorry, I didn't know we were supposed to accept that a loophole exists in the rule 3 and that if we don't talk about those things anymore it will be fine and stay as it is. However, I rather think you should make up your mind and think what you want to do, then decide and let the forum know. Is it going to be we are dealing with everything, or we are dealing with what Jayde randomly finds and a game he randomly decides to check tomorrow evening? Because that's not how a rule that should be taken seriously works. Of course, it is perfectly unreasonable that you should check the entire database in one go and immediately recognise every single copyrighted sound in a game. But to me this already started to make no sense at all with your last post. And sorry, but I am going to take 0 responsibility for this. What are we doing wrong exactly? Respecting the rule that you are trying to enforce? Let's put it this way. If I report a user who broke rule X, and the user gets banned for that, is it my fault that he was banned or his fault for breaking the rule in the firstplace? Equally by the same logic, if I report a game X for using something that the developer has no rights to use, is that my fault? You know perfectly well it isn't. But keep trying to spin it in whatever way you'd like, we are all used to that already. It is only you to blame and nobody else. You are insisting on the rule, you are as you admit yourself being the loudest about it. For now, the only thing that remains is for all of us to hope that as many audiogames as possible will slip through your radar and it will all be fine. Because whether a game will  continue being here depends only on that. This is only unfair and creates a general mess for any developer wanting to release a game right now. I'm only waiting for the moment when people will start to complain how game X was removed, but Y wasn't, and it's bound to happen. Are we then to blame the developer of the game X when the game Y gets removed after the complaint?
For the record, just like your posts about Nintendo and reporting CP were hypothetical and were there only to proove a point, same goes for my reporting. If I said yesterday that reporting a developer is the most pathetic thing to do and that I would never do it, my opinion doesn't change overnight. Noone will surely be reported for breaking a nonsensical rule that even you can't properly enforce. In the end, we will see how this turns out. It is my hope that the database editors will do the right thing and continue adding games which are accessible, and not remove stuff that was fine for years.