Wow.
I am away doing other things for a little and I come back.
It depends on what you guys call minor and probably has to do with your location more than anything else.
I do have a cane ofcause and I strive to not be guided, I do still use guides, a cane is no good on the grass and in crouds I have my mum or others holding my cane so people don't trip over it.
Where I can sence the crouds will be to large I simply don't use cane as its just to difficult to even bother using.
While I have had trouble with the local blind services they are quite tame to say the nfb.
Ofcause being an adult I am expected to ask for assistance not given it.
Still I am given free things.
I am not entitled feeling or expect free things but I am happy if I don't have to pay for something.
One thing as long as you after recieving a free thing help someone else then it does work out.
As for cars and driving, self driving vehicles are round the corner sooner or later no one will need to drive like we do.
As for the rest of it.
Blindness could be a desese some conditions are genetic.
You can't catch blindness, you could catch viruses that could cause blindness but hmmm its not a big issue.
How major is blindness.
As long as you accept your limitations, I can't drive, maintain things, use tools and a few other things then its fine.
It is a major issue ofcause but not as major as having no brain, being deaf to, being unable to walk.
If anyone here thinks blind ness is a major issue go see the movie breathe you don't need audio description to get the gist and look it up on wikipedia.
You should also listen to interviews about the main character.
You will then know what major is!
Being blind in the grand scheme of things if thats all you are is not a major thing, in fact its quite minor.
Now as a kid to a teen and through certain stages of life it was major to me.
A lot of things have improved since then.
Grabbing all chances was one of the hardest things I found hard to do.
I do sadly have those in my family 1 person that says because I am blind that its just to hard to work and I am slower.
I accept that getting a job and keeping is a challenge especially with how things stack for normals these days.
However sadly, as soon as you are disabled some people assume you get a job because people feel sorry for you, or that they want to make themselves feel good and this is not the case.
Now here in new zealand we do have some millitant elements, we also have a few supportive elements.
For whatever reason we have managed to get a ballance which has got things done to a point things could always be better but even so.
Sometimes I liken nfb to the un, resolutions are passed.
Sometimes they have effect but sometimes not, in fact most are probably never followed at all.
Forcing someone to do something doesn't mean well that they will do it or do it to the best of their ability.
I am happy we live in a place where a lot of the mainstream tech is now usable by us.
Software wise its all on marketing, and what is used.
Not much we can do about that.
In the end users must do things themselves and tell whoever what it is and ask them to look at it mostly they listen.
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If there would be a way for getting your sight back, would you do it? (Page 7 of 7)
AudioGames.net Forum → Off-topic room → If there would be a way for getting your sight back, would you do it?
Posts: 151 to 173 of 173
#151 2018-02-25 23:19:19
#152 2018-02-25 23:32:52
The wording, though. "Normal" is a fuzzy, context-dependent concept, but the way it's generally used, it's pretty hard to say that blindness is "normal". That's not just because most people think of blindness as abnormal, but because all the blind people in the world are, what, less than 5% of the population? There would be advantages to normalizing extreme rarities such as blindness, but too much normalizing could conceivably reduce encouragement for relevant medical research and treatments.
re: children with disabilities. The deaf I get, even if I do not agree, because of the ways in which hearing loss affect communication. Linguistic isolation is a good way to develop a distinct culture. For blindness, though, the only reason to prefer passing on a hereditary eye condition is to encourage the passing on of nonvisual life skills, which isn't what I'd call a good reason to select the blind embryo over the others! However, I would not encourage actively avoiding passing on a disability if and only if the parents know based on clear evidence that their child(ren) will be able to take it without major reduction in quality of life, and I suspect those conditions are very rarely met. However, that push when Eugenics was still in for maried couples with hereditary blindness to not have children was a terrible idea, since generations of blind parents is a good place to expect the relevant knowledge to accumulate. Also I object to mandatory antinatalism on principal.
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
George... Don't do that.
#153 2018-02-25 23:35:50
@enes
Most of your examples of why the NFB's "commandments" are wrong are simply misguided and uninformed people making bad decisions that do not in any way represent what the NFB is about.
And most of your other examples are just your opinion, which is meaningless in this discussion because I seriously doubt that what you think represents the NFB's view either.
But since you've already decided that you are right and the NFB is wrong, there really is no point in discussing this any further with you.
Bye.
#154 2018-02-25 23:46:37
I think we're having the sort of branching conversations that reddit is better for than forums, 
.
It's been said that it's very difficult, if not impossible with current technology, to resolve the precise balance of nature vs nurture, since the magnitude of the impact of one or the other will vary wildly depending on [strike]luck[/strike] circumstance. I'm not sure how much that generalizes to blindness, since visual acuity can be measured.
It's hard to quantify, precisely, but I think it might help if we could put numbers on it—what percentage of the problems related to blindness that you experience do you believe are inherent to blindness, and what percent are the result of social forces?
My top-of-the-head answer is something like 80% social, but I'd need to take a few minutes to break it down in more detail before giving my final answer.
(If you have more categories besides those two, go ahead and include those 
!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
George... Don't do that.
#155 2018-02-26 01:03:54
hi,
I will respond here.
Firstly, comparing blindness to being an african american in the 19th century is like comparing oranges and apples. There is really no relationship, other than the imaginary ones people seem to suit their ideologies with. Firstly, the major difference is that race is indeed a neutral concept, unlike blindness which is a physical disability. Unlike blindness, being chinese, or african american, or native american do not affect your biological capabilities, or your physical limitations. Blindness, is not neutral, it is inherently bad, as it puts you at a direct disadvantages with sighted peers, furthermore it places physical limitations on what you can do. African americans were barred from performing many tasks by the society in the Us at the time. This was completely different. I really can't believe the nonsense people spew sometimes.
Furthermore, on selecting deaf children, here is an article as proof that this happening.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/200 … alresearch
also this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/ … vidteather
This is really sick. Reading these seriously makes my blood boil, for reasons I will explain. I will begin by saying that having a baby, and not utilizing the appropriate medical treatments is, and should be legally considered parental abuse. This is no different than tieing your child to a post and isolating them from the world. The reason is this. Anyone here who has studied linguistics to moderate levels will know that there is a critical period for the acquisition of the first language. What a critical period is is that if a certain thing won't happen in development of an organism, it is impossible to regain that function after a time. In other words, the changes are perminent. Language is one such function. The critical period for language is up to 5 years. What this means is that children need exposure to language at these years to develop, they need to hear the language, or see it, in the case of sign language. By not allowing their child to be exposed to spoken language, these parents are perminently, irreversably ruining their child's life, by isolating them from at least 90% of the world who uses spoken language as a medium. Even if this child decides to get cochliar implementation when he/she is legally allowed to do so, he/she will never be able to learn how to speak, or to use language, due to closing of the critical period window of language acquisition. This is criminal, to the highest extent. The largest proof of the critical period comes from Geni, a child who was tied to a post, and isolated from the world by her father for 12 years before being found. Read more here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child)
Even though she was stimulated to learn language, she was ultimately unsuccessful.
As for disability and society, I would say that disability is 30% society, and 70% biological and physically limiting. As for alternative techniques, yes they are inferior most of the time to their sighted counterparts. For instance accessibility. Accessibility will always be merely a shadow of true visual access to the GUI. Assisibility technologies, and other alternative methods try to imitate the regular technique. As for driving, it is the most independant form of travel, which blind people are deprived from. And public transportation, and walking can be much more inconvenient compared to it. I would advise you to look at the world, not through an ideology, which is built on falsehoods, butt independantly, and neutrally.
#156 2018-02-26 03:17:09
I've always understood, both from reading and from personal experience, that how much or whether blindness is a disability or an inconvenience is largely up to the individual's own atitudes rather than any hard and fast rules.
First of all, my current level of vision is that if I focus a bit, I can just barely make out sources of light, otherwise, I won't notice a window on a bright sunny day.
For example, from my own experience, recently I had to go to a doctor's office for some physical therapy for a shoulder injury. Since I had been there twice before with a sighted person to guide me, I didn't have Aira then, I knew the layout of the building and could find and use the elevators to get to the right floor and to find the right office on that floor, all without assistance.
On my last visit, there was another blind person there. He had been coming to the building for months for some other medical reason, but was totally helpless, he still had to be guided by a sighted assistant Further, from the conversation I learned that he was only partially blind and had been that for far longer than I'd been blind. The impression I got was that he was letting his vision impairment define him as completely helpless or fully disabled, and allowing an assistant to do everything for him, he seemed like he wasn't even willing to try. While I, on the otherhand, do my best to make my blindness only an inconvenience, and like somebody else here on the forums, don't let my blindness stop me from doing whatever I want..
---
Did I hear somebody correctly? They said something to the effect that the blind can't use tools. I live alone in a one bedroom apartment, and have for as long as I can remember. For minor maintenance tasks, I do the work myself because the management here leaves a lot to be desired, taking months to do even the simplest of maintenance tasks. Some examples of simple tasks I've done myself are:
* Changed the rubber flapper valve in the toilet tank, no tools required, but still.
* Installed a bidet on the toilet, no tools should have been required but somebody used a wrench on one of the fittings and over tightened it.
* Installed a wall bracket for an aerosol fire extinguisher, cordless drill and cordless screwdriver.
* Installed a set of broom and mop holders on a wall in the storage closet, cordless drill and a cordless screwdriver.
* Replaced a screen and install a grille on the front screen door. Tool to press the rubber tubing that holds the screen cloth in place, razor knife to trim excess screen cloth, cordless drill, and cordless screwdriver.
Tools? Despite being blind, I have no problems using them. On top of that I know a number of blind people who do woodworking as a hobby, and they are quite good at it. Talk about tools! One guy I know has converted his garage into a complete woodworking shop with lots of power tools, and his walls are covered with all kinds of hand tools as well, no matter the task, he's got the tool for it. He makes the nicest furnature.
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And what's wrong with having to find ways of doing things without the benefit of sight? Would you rather be dependant on some one else to do those things? Even sighted people have to find and learn their own way to do some things, why shouldn't a blind person be able to do the same for themselves?
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Those reports that say that sighted people get 80% of their information through their eyes, and that that means a blind person is missing 80% of the world is patently wrong from very flawed thinking.
Sure, a sighted person probably does get 80% of their information about the world around them through their eyes, but that is 80% out of the full 100% of information they gather. Take out the eyes due to blindness and the pie doesn't suddently drop to only 20%, no, the other senses will adjust to fill in the missing 80%. So instead of the ears providing 10% of the sensory information in a sighted person, they might provide 50% to a blind person, touch might go from 5% to 20%, and so on.
Some information is lost simply because it is purely visual, but a lot of information about your surroundings can still be obtained using your other senses.
For example, to get to the grocery store next door, I have to find and follow several walls. A sighted person would just look at the walls to find and follow them. But I find and follow them just as easily using my ears to hear the sounds echoing off them that sighted people don't hear because they don't need to. Do I feel handicapped or disabled or incapable because I can't see the walls? No! Despite my tinnitus, which isn't all that bad, my ears work just fine so I can hear the walls and get to the grocery store with no problem.
---
I could go on with other examples from my own experiences to debunk the claims made as to why the NFB's "commandments" are so wrong, but I think I've said enough to make my point.
---
And finally. I don't know if it was in this thread or another thread, but there was a story about a NFB representative that required calling the police to get him or her to leave after they'd been rather abusive towards a prospective client. After they were gone, Was the NFB contacted and advised about the behavior of their representative? It's more than likely that the representative went way over board and the NFB should at least be advised so they can take corrective action as they see fit.
While I'm not a member and have no plans to be, I do know quite a few people who are, and they are all very nice, friendly, and helpful people that would never act like that representative did.
#157 2018-02-26 04:22:25 (edited by Green Gables Fan 2018-02-26 12:14:49)
- Green Gables Fan
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I take a great delight in perusing over the arguments raised by Enes, portraying blindness as a tragedy, rather than a mere physical nuisance. But, let's add something else to the mix. Remember post 135, where I initially talked about people who are not only blind, but people with combined disabilities? Yes, Jonathan Mosen has Norries, and in a 2013-2014 blog post, I can't remember which one, he had expressed his views about the lack of audio quality for podcasting when one wears hearing aids. http://mosen.org/now-hear-this-musings- … id-wearer/
#158 2018-02-26 04:26:27 (edited by CAE_Jones 2018-02-26 04:34:02)
Re: tools, I'm at this moment standing by a bookshelf I made, where the only other assistance was another blind person helping to keep it from falling apart while we put the clamps on during the glue-drying phase. None of the tools were modified for accessibility. The worst thing that happened is that I got overcautious at one point with the banding iron and burned one of my knuckles, which I imagine at least 1 of 10 sighted people would have done at some point.
When it comes to alternative techniques, I think Enes is saying that they're almost always inferior in some way—speed being the most apparent (the fastest Braille readers are still slower than the average print reader, for example). Exactly which alternatives are always inferior or limiting might not be so clear-cut, but, yeah, cars are the most obvious one. An hour walk would be 3-6 minutes by car, and driving in the rain is much nicer than walking in the rain (Why have I still not bought rainboots?). Canes are an extra item, taking up a hand, which need to be stored somewhere out of the way when not in use. Assistive technology such as Jaws or Braille devices multiply the cost of computers, while getting practically none of the graphics power that is part of the price of the original device. Whether or not one would say these are inferior, performance wise, they still inflict an additional cost, which, while reduced in a world where the blind market was more like the sighted market, would not go away. (Unless that hypothetical market made innovation accelerate dramatically enough to offset the cost, but no sense in relying on markets to deliver miracles.)
That said, I imagine we'd still disagree over more specific nonvisual techniques, though which specifically, I'm not sure.
Re: multiple disabilities, I agree not enough effort seems to have gone into such not-so-uncommon cases. I will say that there was a client at LCB in 2016 with hearing loss and a guide dog, and I got the impression they were treated more reasonably than most, according to the stories. I don't know what accommodations were made for the hearing loss, but they seemed OK with not taking their dog on assignments, while using said dog everywhere else, and didn't take grief over it.
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
George... Don't do that.
#159 2018-02-26 12:43:16
- Green Gables Fan
- Sarah's social circle
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After finding Jonathan Mosen's post from 2013, and reading about how he is still able to cross busy streets with his hearing aids, I thought of something which had come to me a few months before.
I was talking to a friend of mine on Skype, and we were talking about how I always used a street crossing card to solicit assistance when I went to work. In my last IEP records, they stated that it had worked like a charm. So, I was thinking, why not set up a building, similar to a garage, or better yet, create a space on a deserted block. On top of the roof inside the building, there would be a wide array of surround sound speakers. They might also be in the walls if that was easier. Then, an O&M instructor, an audiologist or some other hearing aid technologist can work with the hearing aid wearer on a street crossing simulation. You would stand at an intersection, and above you or next to you would be the speakers. Someone in the control room would manipulate the directions from which audio of the traffic came. When you heard the traffic surging from the speakers beside you, and you know it is parallel traffic, you can cross the street. If you make a mistake, like, due to silent cars that were turning onto the street you were crossing, it would not be dangerous because it was only a simulation.
If I remember correctly, I think I heard somewhere that something like that might already be in existence, but I know not. I will have to look into it some more.
#160 2018-02-26 16:11:56
orko, You seem to hold the atitude that all blind people should have a photographic memory, and memorize every single building and spot they have been into. You look down on people who haven't done this. How do you know that guy wasn't trying? How do you know that he didn't have other problems in his life that he was focused on at the time? Do you think everyone should get the layout of a building in a single visit, and navigate like a sighted person? If you can do this, then good for you. But this should not be expected of all blind people, and it should not be the norm. Do sighted people get expected to memorize all cities, and places they visit, for instance. An example, I really won't take much efort to learn a place that I am likely never to visit again. Also, a person might have other problems. For instance, when going to a building for an exam, do you think you'd be focused on the layout, or your exam?
As for techniques, many of the alternative techniques are inferior in many ways. A wall for instance, while it can possibly be navigated by sound, that is not always possible, and every blind person might not be able to use echolocation, as it requires quite precise hearing. A sighted person doesn't need perfect sight to navigate a wall for instance. One additional thinng, sighted people do get 80% of information, from their environment, and this is fact. This research is done with people who have PH.Ds in the fields they research. While the NFB just makes unsubstantiated asertions in their doctrins. Unless you are equally knowledgeable in neuroscience, or a related field, I will take what scientists say over some crazy militant blind people. Also, when site is lost, it is true that some information can be replaced by hearing. But it is definately not 80%. It is likely at least 30-40% less. Furthermore, obtaining such information from other senses is not as precise as the originally processing sense.
#161 2018-02-26 18:02:24
@165, you seem to be under the illusion that Site is the best thing that would ever happen to you. I'm going to kindly ask you to stop and think at just how site can be manipulated by visual illusions and how easy it is. The other senses are not so easily manipulated.
My Github
#162 2018-02-26 18:44:52
The fact of the matter is, all of the senses can be manipulated. Audio ilusions are particularly convincing and fun.
here are some examples, though headphones are required
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbzL9PxtFf0
also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvr3gr8BzA0
#163 2018-02-26 19:07:03
@167, true. However, the big problem with your idea of getting your site back is that it's most likely not as awesome as it sounds. You'd either regress back into habits that your body has memorized over all these years or you'd get caught up in all the ways the sited people can kill themselves with (phones come to mind). What many people have tried to tell you, and what you've failed to grasp, is that Blindness isn't all bad. All I've heard from you on this topic, through following it all the way from start to finish, is negativity from you about blindness. Negative this, negative that. Oh yeah? What about other diseases that are even worse than blindness is (and yes, that's possible). What about diseases that cause paralysis such as poliomyelitis, cerebral palsy, peripheral neuropathy, Parkinson's disease, ALS, botulism, spina bifida, multiple sclerosis, and Guillain–Barré syndrome. What about those who are born with only one arm, or one leg? At least you, unlike those out there who do have diseases that cause paralysis, or who were unfortunate enough to be born with only one leg or arm, or something else just as damaging, still pretty much have full functionality of your body. So, instead of all the negativity about Blindness, I think most of us would actually like to see some positives. You seem like the person who likes to let their disability control them, rather than the other way around. Not a good idea, believe me. Site is nice, true, but while it also is the most powerful in regards to information retrieval, it's also the most dangerous. If you think Blindness is bad, then you truly are out of touch with reality -- because there are things far, far worse than being blind.
My Github
#164 2018-02-26 19:23:21
hi,
Wait wait. I did not, in any part of my posts, say that blindness is the worst thing that could happen to you. In fact, I could quote some of my earliest posts, in which I stated this fact. I did acknowledge that some disabilities, particularly cognitive ones, are much worse than blindness. You also state that I would injure or kill myself if I was sighted. The fact of the matter is, I am at least as likely, if not more likely, to injure myself, or get killed while blind. Also, don't presume I would text and drive, or do all those other things, before knowing my personality. Texting and driving is retarded, and I would never do things like that. You also mention some other diseases, which cause paralysis, and claim that I have full function of my body. I would argue that sight is a faculty of my body, and therefore I don't have complete function. It can also be argued that that some forms of limb amputation, and many forms of paralysis, are less serious than blindness. Doctors think so too, thats why they give you a less severe disability report if you are paralysed to a major extent, though not above the chest, which makes you unable to breathe on your own.
#165 2018-02-26 20:06:27
@enes, while you never outright said it, your posts implied it. And what you say you might do if you were sited and what you might actually do are two very different things.
Also, I do remember you bringing up the point that the sited making things they do look 'easy'. Or something like that, anyway. Well, it does go both ways: give them a braille display and they won't know how to use it. At all. Or at least, some of them don't. Those who do usually have a good reason for knowing how. Still, I think we've battled this issue enough, and you've clearly stated your opinions. (And, by the way, I wasn't just talking about texting and driving either. I was also talking about generally getting too entranced by your phone if you were sited that you'd do what this one guy did -- he was so absorbed in his phone he walked off a cliff.) That's what I meant when I said that site is also the most dangerous sense. The sense of Smell can bring back memories decades old, yes; the other senses are also incredibly powerful, indeed; but unless your deliberately trying to ignore your environment then you can't just shun them aside like you can with your site.
My Github
#166 2018-02-26 22:26:08
Hmmm ians and all I liken the last few posts to what I was like when I got a new workstation and the same with my old symbian phone.
Oh yaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy!
I have this new device, lets install all the free stuff on it.
Oh look lets load all the optional stuff on it, I mean its there lets load it.
Oh but its so slow, I don't need half of it, lets get rid of it yaaaaaayyyyy!
Its like when you get a new system and say, hmmm this is a nice button what does it do when I push it.
Oh its the reformat button, ok, lets not do that anymore.
Now blind people not being normal, well ofcause we arn't normal.
I mean thats the point.
As with visual ilusions the same stuff can be done with audio, its much harder ofcause.
Now depending where you are in the world it may actually be shell we say a bit more of a hinderance to being blind.
Examples are countries with no service at all, say tonga, some of the paciffic islands.
Say some middle eastern countries, in my native home country of indonesia, there are no blind services.
Some aisian countries maybe to.
Some places are to much into welfair, making sure the blind are happy little people that are looked after.
There are vary few countries that have it right, new zealand is one of these and we still could do better.
Australia has some more of it right.
Its not humongus things like major rights here but little things.
Things like audio described movies, some tours, discounts on attractions which are sighted but no alternitive for access and stuff like that.
Small things that are nice haves rather than must haves except for audio description thats almost a must have for me.
Is blindness a disaster.
For ians case it may just be, its all location based.
And ofcause its not all smooth sailing for me.
For example the government here put in place a lot of extra identification systems that make it better and easier for mostly government services.
While most of it was easy to handle there were still a few paper visual codes without accessible alternitives to them.
I also need to front up to varification centres to varify myself every little while.
Right now I live with people that can help me and yes those centres are local post offices so as long as I know where my closest office is I can probably walk to it but even so.
This year the census was transfered from visual paper to digital format and its easy to handle mostly.
Ofcause there is always more that can be done it goes without saying.
And its not all bad I have a family that take me out a lot.
I have friends some that are really outgoing and indipendant and others that are simply because of circumstances beyond their control stuck in one state.
One of my friends is autistic, his muther works, his father is sick can't work and at home but sleeps a lot.
He does get out but not as much as me.
As a result he sleeps most of the day, and sits on his computer and does nothing.
Saying that when I was yung I did that and if left for long enough my limit so far is about 5-6 weeks alone I tend to revert to that level to.
As I mentioned before, being blind isn't really all that bad.
I have 2 friends.
1 of them has a sister that has a job is bright and well has a life.
She is blind, her sister has issues, and is simpley helpless and won't have any life at all.
I have another born with a hole in the head who is basically a poor helpless retard, but the law says even if you are a poor helpless retard you can't get got rid of, sadly this means the family must suffer with fits and the like, I know we shouldn't be aborting our disabled by any means I mean I am a disabled person myself but if you are that bad, well put it this way, family no good, I know from mum who is her friend that the muther of this person has a lot of issues because of this, and so it goes on.
No excuses here but if you think blindness is that bad look at my examples and think please.
I am not sure how old you are ians, but if you are still a teenager I can probably understand, I am 35 years old and I have been through the school system, the university system and the lets try to inadiquitly fund the blind person system.
I have survived and while I havn't achieved anything and this is probably my lot right now I am pritty much a free man.
#167 2018-02-26 23:09:14
I think Enes is in his 20s, but not sure.
Texting while driving is incredibly stupid. I imagine half the people who do it anyway know that, and think they can handle it just this once. Then, if nothing disastrous happens, they decide they might be more capable of getting away with it than sense would suggest, and do it again.
I say this because I might maybe possibly once have tried texting while crossing an industrial driveway on an interstate ramp. This is exactly as stupid as it sounds, but I got impatient and didn't think it would be that dangerous, for some reason (I mean, it's not like I'd be looking away from the road, or anything, right?) Of course, I veered off into the road and somehow didn't die. So, 1, don't do that, and 2, underestimating one's susceptibility to hubris is hubris.
@165: I don't think Orco meant blind people should be memorizing everything all the time. I mean, Dark has made the point several times that spatial awareness is an ability that varies from person to person, and he focuses on landmarks and reliable cues. Echolocation is one of those things that is rarely taught, and if you don't think about it, you probably don't notice it, but it's definitely a skill which can be trained, given sufficient hearing.
I'll grant that talents and styles in these areas matter. I met this hard-core NFB guy who'd been with them his whole life, who was still having a painfully hard time demonstrating any intuitive grasp on his orientation after High School. AFAIK, he eventually got better, but if someone that deep into that system can have that much trouble after so long, then it's clearly not so simple as "just go and do x".
I am tempted to bring up cultures. I mean, on one end, we have the way people treat Revan, and on the other hand, we have the wild range of attitudes in the Anglosphere, but I notice that one of the blind people I've met who expressed the most negativity toward blindness was a Turkish guy, I think in his mid-to-late 20s. His skills were pretty good, TBH, and the only thing that stuck out was his tendency to guide other blind people directly. He also mentioned that his first exposure to other blind people was a middle-aged man being guided by a 10-year-old, and how he found the idea of being in that situation unbearably humiliating. I kept remembering that last part, because, IIRC, Enes is the one who first mentioned humiliation. Meanwhile, the people who have been disagreeing with him most have been from places like the US and Australia. I don't know how relevant any of this is, but it's hard not to notice when the conversation splits along cultural lines.
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
George... Don't do that.
#168 2018-02-26 23:26:20
hi,
So ethin, you make asumptions on what I mşight and might not do, without having any idea of my character, or personal qualities. I would say that this is incredibly judgmental to make guesses on a person's actions, without knowing that person. And about sighted people and braille displays, why would a sighted person need to know how to use a braille display? What benefit would it bring them? You portray this as if a sighted person somehow needed to know how to use a display.
As for spacial skills, kae, you are right. I for instance, always have trouble with grasping spacial concepts, which is unrelated to the amount of efort. I just can't seem to memorize large open spaces, or have an intuitive orientation.
As for echolocation, it requires very sensetive hearing, and any difference, and you can't learn it effectively. I think blindness organizations should quit forcing this down one's throat as a trainable or learnable skill, and view it more like painting, or singing good songs.
As for the Turkish guy, as a fellow turkish guy, I would really like to meet him or chat with him.
#169 2018-02-27 01:50:45
Are there organizations that force echolocation down people's throats? I heard of the SF Lighthouse having someone who taught it at one point, and it gets mentioned a couple times at LCB, but otherwise it's just something that kinda happens. I don't feel like it requires super sensitive hearing, at least where large objects like buildings are concerned. When you can detect when a hallway opens into a room, absent some extra noise like fans or people, it's usually either airflow or echoes. I caught myself tapping my cane sometimes when I was standing still, without really thinking about it, having never before thought about the clicking thing, because I got so use to the feedback while walking that it became background information. I was never taught it, but based on how it came up on its own, how even sighted people occasionally mention things like feeling the openness/closedness of an environment, or feeling the presence of people behind or beside them, it really doesn't seem as complicated as it sounds.
I don't think I have that guy's contact information, but I might be able to get it, if you want.
@164: My first impulse is to be concerned that the simulation you described would have insufficient detail—things like wind, echoes, or obstructions that would alter the sound, for example. I'd still say it's worth puting to the test, though.
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
George... Don't do that.
#170 2018-02-27 06:30:54
- Green Gables Fan
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Well, at the second part of 174, now that you put these in place, how easy would it be to implement those little details you mentioned, such as wind direction and speed, other ambient noise, distant echos, etc? We'd need something like the Skywalker Sounds in Lucus Farm, California.
#171 2018-03-01 02:33:39 (edited by turtlepower17 2018-03-01 02:49:18)
At TJT, I always took issue with those three stages that Kenneth Jernigan wrote about. It puts every blind person into a neat little box, trying to dictate how they should react to their blindness. It's not psychologically healthy. Any modern literature on grief, for example, will stress that, while there are five stages that one usually goes through when they lose someone of importance, it's perfectly normal to skip some of them, or stay stuck in any number of them, or not have any discernible pattern at all. So the fact that all blind people are supposed to be timid, aggressive, and then, for lack of a better term, healed, is absurd. I also think, although I could be wrong about this, that it was written in the context of people who go through training at an NFB center. This seems like an extremely rapid progression, to say the least. Anyone who is expected to go through such rapid emotional changes in such a short time is bound to suffer ill effects.
As for the debate about one disability being worse than another, I think it's all relative. I couldn't imagine being deaf myself. If I could never hear music again, or the voices of those I love, I honestly don't know if I could cope with that. If I were to get into an accident tomorrow and lose a leg, sure, that would be tough, but not nearly as devastating as taking away the one sense that means everything to me. Yet, you hear all the time, as I said above, about how blindness is the most feared disability of them all. Most people would rather lose a limb or become a vegetable if asked. In theory, anyway, of course.
And, had I been born deaf or paralyzed or cognitively impaired instead of blind, this would be a completely different argument too, one that I can't even pretend to understand. Since I went to a school for the blind, and encountered a lot of children who had it a thousand times worse than me in many ways, I gained a lot of empathy. It broke my heart when I would see a kid who was nonverbal, bound to a wheelchair, and blind, and banging on every object within their reach or attacking staff in order to communicate. Even less severe cognitive deficits could easily get you taken advantage of in that environment, not to mention that, in most cases, those kids were there because their families had pawned them off on a system that would get the kids off their hands so they wouldn't have to deal with them. I don't claim to be a martyr, nor am I saying that having one disability necessarily attunes you to the suffering of others. That's how it worked for me, and, as I said, even in my darkest hours when the only thing I could think about was wanting, needing to get out of my current situation, there were two things that made me hold on. One of them was seeing how others were treated, and how they couldn't express their needs in the usual ways, and I couldn't imagine what that would be like.
#172 2018-03-01 03:49:35 (edited by Green Gables Fan 2018-03-01 04:01:37)
- Green Gables Fan
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To further accentuate my point and my dislike of the NFB, I will tell you about a brief conversation I had with one of my former teachers of the visually impaired. They are going to be immersed in assisting nursing and assistive living facilities deal with people who do not have adequate vision to function in their environment. While that topic is outside of this scope, somewhere along the trail, they wandered towards a controversial topic involving the attitudes held by a large majority of members of the National Federation of the Blind. It's what was said that I really liked. Let's back up to when we were just young, curious and playful tykes. We probably remember being told, from time to time, 'work together, help others, be kind,' you name it. Sadly, many people have forgotten these truths by the time they reached adulthood.
When I went to my first NFB-sponsored event, I was assuming that I would be guided by either a fellow blind person, or someone who had vision. Sadly, that came to naught. I didn't know that nobody thought I had a hearing loss. Those who could see that I wore hearing aids spoke in very arrogant voices, which I took no liking to. Nobody takes kindly to being yelled at, even people with residual hearing, such as myself.
When I came back to school, my new teacher of the visually-impaired had informed me that, for better or worse, I should be more interdependent instead of independent. That way, I wouldn't be working all alone for the rest of my life.
When my former teacher dropped me off earlier this afternoon, we talked about that very problem. The NFB wants people to be completely independent, all the time, every time. So, the big question is, why? Is it because the NFB is afraid that if society sees a group of blind people being led by a sighted human guide, they would assume people were helpless? Going back to what I said about guide dogs, how do you expect to compare a dog guiding you versus a human?
Also, I agree that the stages of blindness, and the stages of grief are all just a pattern of observations that are to be expected in the average human in Western culture. That is not to say, however, that everyone will have these stages in this order. But, at the same time, how you present this information, be it noble or militant, will matter the most, as each and every individual will interpret it differently. It's not what you say, but how you say it.
Also, you raised some good points, many of which reminded me of a book I read about a year ago called Out of My Mind, by Sharon M. Draper. So as not to spoil the novel, I will say that it was truly, a moving experience.
I may have said this in another post, but I actually have an older brother. He is twenty-five years old. Like Helen Keller, he is totally deaf and totally blind. Unlike she, however, my brother never received formal communication skill, like American Sign Language, or tactile signing until he was much older. This caused him to rage and act out, something which happens from time to time up to this day. I am doing everything I can to get the services he needs so he can at least communicate more effectively.
I learned to cope with my hearing loss because that's the only path I have left to take. So, I would want to cure my hearing loss first before I went and cured my blindness. I, too, am an avid musician, and I would hate to lose that ability completely.
Sometimes, I just wish I could be whole.
#173 2018-03-01 17:04:50
I must say..
I would not have my sight back.. I'm in fact happy I was born blind, due to the simple fact that I'm able to help people to understand that blind aren't weird people..
Asking others for help has never been a problem for me.. Hec, I was able to make great friends just by asking them for help..
Don't get me wrong, I think it would be nice to have sight.. But for me, I have just got used to my blindness and try to make the best of each day that comes.. I don't complain or wine about it, I simply try to be thankful for the things I have.
I think its because here in Brasil, most blind people are treated differently.. Sinse we don't have as much government support, we are forced to learn our way around the world.
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