2018-02-20 13:31:44 (edited by Ethin 2018-02-20 13:33:41)

I still think that you shouldn't resent your disability. No one should, really. You were born with it, or got it somehow at whatever age. There's nothing you can do to change it. Plus, there are a lot of things that factor into a treatment like this that would and could give you back your site, such as retinal length, whether your brain would even accept the treatment (hello, immune system), etc. Not to mention your eye lenses. And that's just for Retinopathy of Prematurity, the condition that makes me blind in the first place. That doesn't even take into account other causes, including Systemic allergic diseases (Asthma, Atopic dermatitis, Atopic eczema, etc), Skin and mucous membrane diseases (Acne rosacea, Albinism, Behçet's disease, etc), or any of the other diseases out there (Phacomatoses, Collagen diseases, Systemic viral infections, Systemic bacterial infections, Systemic protozoal infections, etc. (Angiomatosis retinae (Von Hippel–Lindau disease) (retinocerebellar capillary hemangiomatosis), Ataxia telangiectasia (Louis–Bar syndrome), Encephalotrigeminal angiomatosis (Sturge–Weber syndrome) (encephalofacial cavernous hemangiomatosis), and so on). You can find a full list of all of the systemic diseases with ocular manifestations, as it calls it, on Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s … estations. And that's only for systemic ones, too.
Edit: to clarify, the diseases I listed above are the ones that cause blindness. That's what an "ocular manifestation" is.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2018-02-20 14:13:32

hi,
To avoid immune rejection, the replacement of the eye should be made of iether the person's own cells, or it should stimulate the body to repair the damage. In  the womb, the eye is formed completely, it is likely just a question of activating the appropriate genes to repeat the process.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2018-02-20 14:31:58

@enes, that's not as easy as it sounds, believe me. There is another less complicated way: 3D printing. We could use that. However, the process you are referring to will recreate the entire eye; you want to only recreate/regenerate those portions of the eye that are either missing or critically damaged, not replace the entire eye. As I said though, this most likely only works for ROP. I doubt this treatment would be universal.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2018-02-20 14:41:26

I think remaking the eye could be universal. It should take care of most illnesses of the eye.  I know of 3d printing. Technically it is making an eye with your own cells, as sheets of your cells could be used to form the eye. 3d printer, along with CRISPR gene editing technologies, will totally revolutionize the world I believe.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2018-02-20 14:45:54

first of all. 102, your eye condition has an important role in terms of whether it's realistic to get your sight back. while it's something that we haven't touched up on, I think it would be an interesting topic whether in the future, our condition can be cured. in my case, yes, it can. for me, the retina ( hope I'm spelling this right) and the eye balls, or the ctual eyes aren't damaged at all. not to mention since I have full light perception, it would be, no doubt, easier for me to adjust, than some others.
81. cars. ah yes, the good old topic of cars. I learned how to operate a car's dashboard at the age of 4 or so. even up to this day, I operate anything and everything I can, but those touch screens sure make it impossible. yet another limitation that we're facing. and why? I doubt any car factories would build a screen reader into the radio, or the aircon panel. I'm laughing at the idea as I write this. 5 years ago, hell, I knew these things better than the sighted. but good things never last, and the accessibility is strongly! pulling away, further and further. I'm surprised I can at least start the engine in a car park, if I'm cold, maybe, that, too, will be touch screen in about 2 years from now... tongue
and don't get me mentioned how you used to just put the gearbox into neutral, and turn the key. now you have to push out the clutch and shit. ah well, I'll still adapt.
now, let me quote from post 65, think it is.
OK. People have said that "blindness is not minor," "blindness is an extreme limitation," etc., and they have implied, in subtle or not-so-subtle ways, that "blindness is an extremely bad thing and it needs to be destroyed at all costs."
first, thanks for a somewhat entertaining, but harsh post. let me first cover this first point. some of us, and I consider myself lucky from that point, had worse experiences than others. some are from different countries than others. in eastern europe, for example, where I originally originate from, if you're disabled, you're fucked. unless you're in a developed country, you're fucked. I was fortunate enough to have migrated at a fairly young age, but what about those who haven't? there are worse things than blindness, but being blind isn't  challenge or limitation free, as some of you claim it to be.

2. I have been taught two ways of life: the way of the blind person, and the way of the average person. same here. I chose option 2, however. I had to learn to adapt to everything alone. I more or less never had any help besides my fully sighted family. none at all. so of course, I lack certain skills. I'll happily admit that myself. but just because you grew up as an average person, that, by any means, doesn't mean  that you don't want sight back.

to those on this topic who think blindness is a limiter that hinders your development and all that bullshit that's been spouted on this topic: you, along with the blind services who have taught you, are the closed-minded ones. It is not just the services that taught you; it is you, too. If you didn't get all depressed about your blindness. personally, I'm not depressed, and I know for a fact, that I'm not as close minded as the blind services. but since you seem to claim that blindness is limitation free, I want to ask you a question. and anyone could answer it, it would actually be interesting to hear some feedback on it.
so you want to get somewhere. like another state, or something. or you just want to have a quiet weekend alone. train and bus aren't available. so you have 2 choices. 1) you fly, which you can't afford. 2) you simply don't go to have a weekend alone. 3) if you're sighted, you grab your keys, go to the nearest gas station, fill up the tank, and off you go. in fact, if we're speaking of fishing/camping, you literally can't get there without help. and it's not that some of us can't, it's that we don't want to ask for help. there's nothing wrong with not wanting sight back, or not noticing the limitations of blindness, but claiming that they are not there is just simply wrong. I mean, I do admit that almost the only things I miss about not having sight are driving, and the ability to miss nature. I can do more or less everything else that a sighted can. but independence, and freedom, I miss it, there is no day that passes by, when I don't wish it. I think not having any blind person near by, none that I ever hung out with, only having purely sighted is partly why I feel this way. and this is me, apologies if I just want what many people have.

2018-02-20 15:09:55

@106:

Disagree, for the most part cars have gotten easier to start, consider 50 years ago you had to pu out the choke, kepe a foot on the brake, other on the clutch, hold the key turned in the ignition and make sure the car was in neutral, then move the choke at the right time, all the while keeping the clutch pushed in so the car didn't stall....yeah, I'll take keeping a foot on the brake, turn key, push gear, go. Helps that my mom used to run a driving school in the 60s and 70s so I know where I'm coming from with that, the Minis were a bitch to start and several other cars were more complex.

For the issue of not asking for directions, sighted people do that all the time. If I'm heading somewhere with my family I know for sure my dad won't ask for directions, my mom will just go the way she's always gone, not ask for directions unless there's trouble on the road and so forth.

@Ethin/Eenz:

It's not as simple with 3D printing either. Okay, printing a replacement part for an arm or a shoulder's one thing, I know a guy who actually printed the parts he needed and had surgeons reattach those printed parts getting his shoulder working again, but the eye's a whole other ballgame.

@Braille (again):

I'd argue that yes it is the services fault though since at the age most typically get caught up in them they are still learning and like a sponge, and (at least in my experience) the services and social stuff doesn't take no for an answer and the more you try to do stuff they don't want you to do the more they lock you down. Maybe that's just the services I've dealt with however....

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2018-02-20 15:11:08

Also, Braille, I thought I sent you a PM but not sure if it went through though given how FF 58 hates punBB boards (at least with the DuckDuckGo privacy addon and an ad blocker) so yeah not sure what's going on with that PM

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2018-02-20 15:32:13 (edited by pulseman45 2018-02-20 15:32:33)

Even though I'm at the point where I'm OK dealing with it, I think seeing blindness as minor is indeed exagerated.
Also, about accessibility of cars, I remember Citroên released a few cars that had Windows CE and that you could command part of it vocally. Not sure you could tell to start the engine for example, but I found it pretty impressive at the time.

2018-02-20 15:33:28

LOL! These days, cars are a lead pipe sinch to start, just grab the digital key fob that locks and unlocks your car, push the remote start button, and you're done!

Of course this assumes your car has the remote start option.

2018-02-20 15:44:37

Speaking of remote start....because everyone needs a snarky Ron Pearlman momen. I'll just leave this 1000 Ways To Die clip here to illustrate how not to start a car...enjoy the karma....ertruckma....:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyqXd-w7keY
Though without htat they are more complex. That being said I still don't think self driving cars would solve anything, either though simply because it shifts the problem elsewhere, you still have to hope said auto driving car is reliable and you stil have to know how to manually take over in theory.

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2018-02-20 16:12:49 (edited by braille0109 2018-02-20 16:13:32)

106. regarding the PM, I'll go check right now, though I'm using chrome with add block plus. as for cars, I should have clarified a little. I was born in 2000. 80s, 70s completely! missed out on. but late 90s, and the 2000s, you could just plug in the key, pull them in neutral, and there you go. toyota, ford, VW, and most of those things worked beautifully. nowadays, if you have the remote start, you gotta push out the clutch, in some instances, the break as well for security. alternatively, you plug the little remote in the dashboard, then you push out the clutch and break, and then press the button. but things back from 15 years, were much simpler. I always gave VW enormus credit for making their boards particularly accessible. that means tactile buttons, and things that just worked. but you definitely have a point there regarding the 70s. those are some bad stuff.

2018-02-20 16:30:20 (edited by flackers 2018-02-20 16:32:59)

My dad had a car in the seventies that just had the ignition barrel hanging by wires and you started it with anything that would fit in the little slot, like a butter knife, doorkey, or screwdriver. He'd obviously lost the keys at some point and just ripped the ignition out from the rear end leaving the key mechanism redundant. The Earth might as well have been a different planet back in the seventies. We're so much wealthier now it's unbelievable.

2018-02-20 16:32:43

Yeah cars were simpler in the 70s/80s and up until the early/mid 2000s at least.

Also something I wanted to touch on, re: depression

I'd argue it's not depression on its own, I'd argue that hey, those services/social stuff/etc are out to condition you to their way of thinking, the sad thing is the people who do that truly think they are doing the right thing....which they aren't. It's either their way or not at all. For instance, if I mention I run Linux I get told to use a real accessible OS, Windows with Jaws 99% of the time from people in social services/blind services. Nah. I'm fine on Solus with Orca up to date thanks...

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2018-02-20 16:35:04

I still love it how instructers tell you to use IOS, windows 10, and JAWS. nothing else ever exists. I use android just as well as IOS, but for me, typing on there is tedious. I even used a little of CHROMEOS, and that was pretty neat. linux, never had the need to use it, and was ever really interested, but it's nothing to do with accessibility. and I just replied to your PM.

2018-02-20 16:54:56

I'll check and for me, at least I prefer my chosen distro because it just works. No need to go download any programs, just enable Orca once logged into the Mate desktop and go, it works fine with the stuff provided, which is the usual fare, Firefox, Thunderbird, Pluma and so forth., it's a lot easier here but to each their own.

Also yeah my school CIT (200) course was Windows this, Microsoft that, I used Narrator oddly enough because it was a Microsoft product. My high school's IT deptartment firmly believed anything non Microsoft wasn't compatible with Windows....yeah

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2018-02-20 17:21:42 (edited by pulseman45 2018-02-20 18:34:53)

I think I got quite lucky on that, the instructors I have known in France weren't as pushy as that. Sure they sometimes got surprised like hell if I didn't do something a certain way, but they didn't go as far as saying "you should stop doing that completely". In fact, if I got to show them how I proceeded they would sometimes be interested changing how they teach stuff, though not surprisingly this was much more often the case with technology compared to any other domain.
The pushiest thing I had to deal with is that I was forced to use a braille note-taker when I was in a school for the blind. This wouldn't have been that bad except the way that thing handled input made so that typing fast wasn't exactly a good option, and sometimes you would have some completely ununderstandable text in some places.
And then of course teachers didn't understand why I made so much typing mistakes. Because, you know, in that domain there's apparently no way the machine could be at fault, blla-bla-bla. Whereas in other domains like videogames, if someone hears a scratchy voice clip on the Sega Genesis, people will always blame the hardware.
Not sure it's a fair comparison, especially as there are so many games with scratchy voices on Genesis, and because some of you may have had different experiences with all of that, but you get the idea.

2018-02-20 20:04:52

so you want to get somewhere. like another state, or something. or you just want to have a quiet weekend alone. train and bus aren't available. so you have 2 choices. 1) you fly, which you can't afford. 2) you simply don't go to have a weekend alone. 3) if you're sighted, you grab your keys, go to the nearest gas station, fill up the tank, and off you go. in fact, if we're speaking of fishing/camping, you literally can't get there without help. and it's not that some of us can't, it's that we don't want to ask for help. there's nothing wrong with not wanting sight back, or not noticing the limitations of blindness, but claiming that they are not there is just simply wrong. I mean, I do admit that almost the only things I miss about not having sight are driving, and the ability to miss nature. I can do more or less everything else that a sighted can. but independence, and freedom, I miss it, there is no day that passes by, when I don't wish it. I think not having any blind person near by, none that I ever hung out with, only having purely sighted is partly why I feel this way. and this is me, apologies if I just want what many people have.

Yeah, this is the real one, but I think it's a lot more context-dependent than we're making it out to be.
I bring up again that cars and computers are young enough that people who predate the spread of both are still alive. And yet, in spite of that, it seems extraordinarily likely that being blind 100 years ago was more limiting than it is today, and 200 years ago even more so.
Let's consider the world where cars are not an issue: either autonomous vehicles caught on and are 100% accessible, or you live on some really nice island with all the environments you'd normally want to take aacar to in easy walking distance from train stations.
Assume that this island somehow has Amazon, and so you don't have to go ask a stranger to help you find embarrassing health products at a store.
Now what?
Because something tells me this scenario would change no one's mind, as described.
Oh, I agree that the fact that Joe Shmoe can drive for a couple hours and reach some place I wouldn't mind going, and I can't, is rather unpleasant. But Joe Shmoe couldn't do that in 1900, and blind people were still overwhelmingly downtrodden in 1900. The NFB didn't exist back then (IDK about the RNIB).
There were still things missing, like art and eye contact. I don't remember either of those coming up in this discussion, though. It always comes back to either independence, or awful people being awful in a way they wouldn't be toward a sighted person.
In a world where driving was a non-issue, and sighted people treated you like a human being with actual value, what would be your motivation? How strong do you think that motivation would be in this scenario?
Would it make a difference if you were the only blind person around, vs if you could easily find a dozen on short notice?
I'm not saying that blindness isn't, by definition, the lack of a sense, or that lacking that sense isn't limiting or disadvantageous in any way.
I'm asking what limitations and disadvantages, specifically, make it so horrible for so many?
And why were blind people worse off when hardly any ubiquitous technology was inherently visual?

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2018-02-20 20:19:40

Blind people were downtrodden in 1900? Yes. Because society was different then, you had a very religious perspective on the world, you had several different strains of Christianity in the US, and you had a smaller US to boot....

In 1900 it was common for disabled people to be treated as drooling idiots, incapable of anything, that attitude lasted up until the 1970s at least in some areas and still happens today. Certain religions viewed, in the late 1890s/early 1900s blindness or disability as a punishment from their chosen deity for not being religious enough, for instance a child born out of wedlock that was blind was blamed on sex outside marriage, a child born to a married couple was seen as blind due to the faults of the parents and a god punishing the child, for example. Also for 1900s society consider the social constructs. You didn't exactly associate outside your social level, the aristocracy didn't associate with the common riff raff in the streets, and the disabled were seen in certain areas as no better than beggars or even criminals. In certain parts of the world, blind and disabled people were forced into 'therapy' to 'cure' their disability. Or just tossed into insane asylums.

Society hasn't really changed in 117 years from the given date, as a whole. If anything, things like the NFB/RNIB/etc are a throwback to social class structures, I feel, they need to get with the times and notice the world's adapting,  and changing. They need, I feel to stop treating blind people like it's the 1900s and they need help doing the simplest little things, or to stop treating them, at the worst ends of it, like babies who can't be trusted to do anything on their own.

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2018-02-20 20:35:42

No, the NFB doesn't need to stop what it's doing. It needs to die. It needs to end. Period. The NFB has hardly done shit to improve the blind community other than cause trouble for everyone and giving the blind as a whole a bad name. Organizations like the NFB or RNIB, who supposedly "represent the blind," do a shitty job of it and need to ended. The organizations, I mean.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2018-02-20 21:00:00

agreed with post 120. as for 118, you raised an interesting point. if you lived on an unhabbited island, where it's just you and nature, would you want your sight back? while in that instance, I wouldn't want it as much as I do now, not being able to see the view of the sea, the wild life, nature, would hurt me just as bad. in fact, thinking more about it, that island would want me to have it even more, since unlike in the real world, I  would have no sighted to describe things to us, or help. not being able t o put a picture to a coconut, not knowing whether it's consumable at all... sometimes the look of these things, while not as obvious, but can help.

2018-02-20 21:12:21

@JaceK

1,000 Ways to Die, I always liked that show and still listen to all the old reruns. I have my TiVo box set up to record it whenever it is aired. Yeah, call me morbid, but I always thought it was hilarious how stupid people could be to their own detriment.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

2018-02-20 21:42:10

@122:

Somehow the show gets funnier once Ron freaking Pearlman, aka Hellboy took over narrating....I'm posting and rewatching season 1 and thoroughly entertained. Spoiler. It's all on Youtube, so you guys who want to laugh at dark humor, youtube 1000 ways to die, there's a playlist of all the episodes on there for ya....

Also, related but not from 1000 Ways, thisactually happend. a pensioner in the UK pretended to be blind for sympathy and free handouts (scumbag). Karma came calling when his guide dog refused to walk on, he dropped the leash, took a step....and fell and drowned in a ditch. That just feels like a cosmic bitch slap for pretending to be disabled. Also makes for a hilarious screw you from whichever deity happened to be watching, take yer pick...acua

@Ethin:

No, kill them with fire. I like the idea of such organizations. I just don't like their ways of doing stuff. On paper something like the NFB/AB/RNIB/etc is a nice cute idea. Unfortunately.....

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2018-02-21 07:05:21

@123, true. As the saying goes, "An idea can look excellent on paper. But it is horrible in practice."

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2018-02-21 09:44:43

Okay yeah posed the question to a blind guy I was at high school with. This is his reply, paraphrased...let's call him Bob for this instance:

No because I'd have to give up my free housing and my freee stuff I get on welfare, I don't want to give all that up

The problem, though is last I spoke to him, he works and has a good social life so I'd argue that could come off as entitled, the 'I work but I want free stuff' mentality when Bob actually works, has a full time job and still somehow claims to be a helpless blind guy. Nope, not making it up, he works a 40 hour week,.....yet still plays the woe is me, I'm blind, card. Which frankly pisses me offf because I know for a fact there's a lot of unemplyed sighted people who could do the exact same job and do it just as well, without requiring (and this is from Bob's own words to me), getting his employer to fork out for training, for accomadating his needs.

My uncle runs a roofing businesss, and again, this is paraphrasing his own words:

He doesn't want to seek out and deliberately hire disabled people simply because being a sales rep involves driving and selling roofing stuff to people on a dady by day basis, e.g. leave house by six, drive to the office, then go drive all around the area till 4-5pm then head home. As my uncle stated, there's no way a blind person could do that at all. Yes, he has an office secretary who has her own issues, but as he stated, that's a different job. In that case he hired the best candidate for the job, this woman Lysssa could start right away, and get to work with minimal expense needed. I was shocked to learn how much it costs in certain fields to train or provide services for a disabled person, f.ex. my uncle has been forced by the fact he runs a business to not hire blind office workers because the company would simply lose too much money in bringing them in, getting the hardware and software all set up to  get them settled in, then go for the training. I was told during a conversation over Christmas it cost, and this is in GBP, or British pounds, £3500 to bring in one blind office worker from scratch, train them up with courses, then the cost of modifying the firm's computers to be accessible. This is where the bigger isssue comes in. I know the firm's IT specialist, Brian, he's honestly tried, and tried, and tried to find a way to do it on the heap to keep the company making money....and from a pure tech perspective it's simply not doable, I explained to my unle Charles bout NVDA and he told Brian, Brian went and looked it up from what I heard, I got a call about it and it ended up as thanks for telling me about this but the charities are pushing us to use Jaws and won't give us discounts, the government won't either so we're screwed...which pissed me off. End result was my uncle told my aunt reported the company has made a concious choice not to deliberately hire any blind employeees simply to stay afloat. I understand that. I get for a company that turns over around a million a year...before taxes, I get where my uncle and Brian are coming from, I've heard the numbers, it's around £5-6k to get a blind guy set up, then you have the recurring costs. The final bit that pushed the roofing firm over the edge was how one blind guy pushing for a job told the firm to, quote, 'Make the job accessible' meaning the sales representative job. When it was suggested, reasonably, he'd be paired up with another rep and they could cover the same area, the blind guy apparently turned angry and said something like what the hell's the point of that? I don't want to be paired up with a sighted person to do my job. I'm independent.

Which turned out to be a ton of bullshit, honestly because, the story goes that blind guy found his way out of the offfice and started screaming at one of the wagon drivers (the firm has a couple of 40 ton trucks for moving stuff around), the truck driver apparently floored the blind guy for threatening him with his cane, sure, the wagon driver got a warning for it but after one of the other guys stepped up and said he was hit with a cane, last I heard that warning got taken off his record after it was shown he was protecting himself.

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2018-02-21 14:46:14

@JaceK

That's the problem with welfare systems, there are too many ways to abuse them.

Bob sounds like a pretty pathetic person. If he weren't blind, he'd probably be the type to spend hours price shopping to save a penny and at the same time spending a dollar in gas to do it. Or would he be too cheap to buy a car?