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AudioGames.net Forum → Off-topic room → Odilia, a linux screen reader initiative, first alpha release is out
@20:
I will hold on for now, since I rather have them look at something better than what is currently available. (I'm sorry, there was no other nicer way to say that.)
However, once you've have the code which you would like to use for long-term, then tell me.
I like the name Yggdrasil. It's different, and the symbolism is nice. I sort of sympathize with 17, because I have trouble learning to spell fantasy-esque names, but this one's not so bad.
And it can always be referred to as YSR (Yggdrasil Screen Reader).
As a science fiction side note, it's also the name of the tree ship in Hyperion by Dan Simmons, so gets my vote because I love sci fi haha.
since braille is what has been brought up in the discussion, can you elaborate on why it's so bad in nvda? anything specific? I'm gonna use liblouis and the backend of brltty to send things to the braille display, so if you have experience with those and nvda's braille support, please tell me now so we can try at least think something before the meteor hits us and it's kinda too late since every piece is layed out. Plus, the way addons are going to work, one could write their own braille handling logic, as well as braille display drivers, exactly like in nvda.
if you are going to have braille support, you should look at BRLTTY and BRLAPI. BRLTTY is great, and you will be able to support a bunch of displays out of the box.
I know, I wrote somewhere around here that I'm gonna use brlapi, the backend and API to brltty. So yeah, I'll get the benefits of that. Anything nvda does wrong with braille, anyone? I won't want to go into this without fixing anything there as well.
@BGT Lover, it expired again (please set the date for longer because its far too short at the moment).
it has its expiry time set to a day, it shouldn't have expired already, god damn it. OK, I'm gonna make it the default then, hope this works finally, await a pm shortly.
@33, its not allowing me to accept the invite. Just says it can't accept it.
OK, done, sent you another pm, one of those alternatives will surely work, it's impossible otherwise.
@35
Sorry, I didn't quite mean braille literally in terms of display output, but more IPA linguistics character support. I think how the Jaws scripts handled it was to speak a specific symbol apart from the word itself, as determining or properly pronouncing the symbol can depend on context and usage, which could be fairly difficult to replicate with a speech engine dynamically. I touched a bit on that [here] before, but again, this is all hypothetical future wish list stuff anyway.
One of the issues with NVDA and braille is that it doesn't support certain braille tables because it would apparently break something with how they're handling Liblouis, and from what I hear, it wouldn't be that many lines to change. Also, the way it outputs is weird, it's role abrriviations make no sense, and just, meh
If you get an addon called braille extender though, I believe you can fix a lot of those issues.
So, just FYI, one of the old guard of Linux accessibility griped about how YSR is represented. He says that saying Linux accessibility is bad as trashing Orca and ATSPI and all that. But I think once YSR is up and going, the new Linux users will vastly outweigh those who hold onto Orca with an iron grip.
oh wow, and i just have to say, once this is done and at 1.0 and all that, and i know it will take a long time but still, and it doesnt have to be built in to a distro but that is preferd, i am switching to linux at that point
@devinprater
The truth hurts sometimes.
Maybe that person should call 9 wine wine and get a waaaambulance.
It is easy for these old guards to say things like these. After all, it's not like they have done something to fix this problem. linux accessibility in its current form, is nowhere near good enough as windows.
Agree. Linux accessibility is trash. I mean, look at the amount of hoops YSR has had to jump through even to get basic at-spi support.
yes, I am indeed aware of the thread there.
Well, it's obvious they are trying to discredit us before we truely make something good, as to why it's left to the interpretation of the reader.
about what they said, maybe we indeed sent a bit of a wrong message, DK, however nowhere did we say orca is trash and crap, just that, as history shows us, linux accessibility is undermaintained and underdeveloped, no lie there, no belittling of orca just because.
Someone said we're just reinventing the wheel, that we should instead contribute to orca. Yes, this is not a simple reinventing of the wheel, it might be a reinventing indeed, though not simple, a necessary one.
Why I can't contribute to orca source code? Well, very simple actually. So, that code has as few documentation as morally allowed, almost nothing. I won't mind if it was a small program, however an sr is important to be documented, at least in case its API's aren't, such as in this case.
Another example of reinventing the wheel is commentary screen reader. Well, people could have said that the dev should have contributed to talkback and not roll his own. Well, DK if his being in china prevented him from doing just that, if github is banned there though I think not, however he simply knew something I wasn't made aware till recently, not only about commentary, but about every such thing that exists, existed, or will exist.
So, talkback, as well as orca in my case, are coded in a weird way, undocumented, to an outsider hap-haserdly even. So then, he could learn to navigate tb in panestaking days of scanning for code comments and so on, or spend as much time on collecting the info anyway and making his own, with new ideas, new commands, fresh things to the table.
Many such examples can be thought of in this world, for example, why isn't windows the only OS in existance? why did linux appear, isn't unix enough?
Yeah, being first doesn't actually mean being the best, that doesn't give the first tool presidence over all others, that shouldn't make newcomers not do anything because it has been done before. As it happened before me, so it will happen again, both with yggdrasil and after it. Yes, clones might be awffle, but this is neither a clone nor a copy of orca, neither will it ever be. Sure, we might take some things out of orca, but just because that's our only good enough documentation and example. Maybe as yggdrasil progresses, we will submit patches to various subsystems of linux to make them more accessible, however the low hanging fruit first, a minimal, extendable and blazingly fast screen reader built on current technologies.
Plus, putting words in our mouths and making it seemn we discredited orca for the sake of competition only and not because it's not that good to use in 2021 is not nice, I await your comments on that one. However of one thing I'm sure, maybe yggdrasil would die a gruesom death one day, but we will at least leave something behind, probably a trail of documentation regarding all this for others to work on, try their hand at this mystery.
People like that are bottom of the barrel in the OSS community.
@45: what do you meann? I don't understand that expression. Google doesn't help much either.
Like not good, the dregs. Like if you make tea and drink it all but the dregs remain. It's a way of saying they're bad. Bottom of the barrel basically means the sediment you don't want.
Curious, where was this thread?
@47, thanks, clearer now. Yes, I agree with you on that front. I mean, I knew I would have a lot of criticisms, but still, I thought they were gonna be valid ones, regarding the functioning of the sr and so on, not some orca fanatics iterating the point that our message came wrongly which it probably kinda did a bit, multiple times in a loop stretching over many pages. Weird enough, not a single word about the prototype itself, I bet they didn't even try it, they jumped on a technikality and tryed to discredit the entire project based on that. Perhaps we should consider rewording the message above, but the point still stands. Honestly, I think they are just a bit afraid of potential competition or something.
@48 what do you mean? If you are asking whether yggdrasil is abandoned, sure it's not! We are working at a more high-level binding to the dbus atspi communication, we're practically remaking a rusty libatspi, just without the glib weirdness, only pure, safe rust. Why is it so slow? Well, both of us have life going on that prevent us from taking full time on this, for example I have university, so have to study for that more extensively. Anyway, without looking at the git logs and so on, you won't be able to say something is going on, since the prototype is crawlling very slowly to the next release, though it does get there indeed, slowly but surely.
@49:
I believe that they were asking about this thread where this linux old guard insulted Yggdrasil.
AudioGames.net Forum → Off-topic room → Odilia, a linux screen reader initiative, first alpha release is out
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