2021-01-17 19:12:18

@24, let me then put to you, and anyone reading this topic, the question I ask overly optimistic and entitled blind people alike: What do you think has to be done to make minecraft actually, enjoyabley, independently, freely and fully playable? Tell me everything you think has to be done to make minecraft, fully accessible.

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2021-01-17 19:15:24

SO you all like false hope and broken dreams... noted. OK yes, it'll be accessible. The updates that are planned will do the trick and I think they will have it ready by end of this year.

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2021-01-17 19:26:27

@23:

The problem with this analogy is that colors are inherently abstract for totally blind people to understand. Minecraft is fundamentally different because its code, ultimately written by human beings, and easier to explain than things like physics which produce intangible waves of different lengths.

The end result behind code is behavior, which has to be explainable, otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand what you want the code to do.

So I take issue with the idea that we can't understand what the problems with Minecraft accessibility might be. It's just a game.

2021-01-17 20:45:08

I don't agree. Until you've punched wood, dug underground, built a house, fended off creepers, spiders, zombies, skeletons, endermen and so forth, you can't understand the nature of this problem.

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2021-01-17 20:56:03

@GrannyCheeseWheel and you can't understand that we can understand.

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2021-01-17 22:04:28

Prove that you understand.

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2021-01-17 22:53:28

@30, if you understand, how do you build an Iron giant?

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2021-01-17 23:41:49

O I don't care about specific recipes, if people understand, show that they do by giving an explanation of what would need to be done to make the game fully accessible.

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2021-01-17 23:46:57

Yeah, I point y'all back to post 26. What has to be done? This isn't just to prove that you understand the workings of the game, but this info can be given to minecraft to help improve their accability efforts.

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2021-01-18 00:29:31

let's just see then. sure, it will be accessible. it will only take,, oh, I don't know, 5, 10 years?
but these are my thoughts. you don't think I wouldn't like to play mc with my brothers and cousin?
we can't see the future. let's just wait and see.

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2021-01-18 05:15:03

not sure if someone as already suggested it, but we can play mindcraft legends...menus also talk in the game

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2021-01-18 05:19:58

@28, Sorry, but this just doesn't hold. Yes, colors are abstract, but code can be extremely abstract too. We can't get our hands on the MC source code, so we don't even know where to begin. So, yes, we have a very, very abstract view of the game from a players POV, which is no help to us.
We don't say MC won't ever be accessible because we're being cynical; we say it because we know it to be true. If you know how to make MC fully accessible to those with no vision or no useful vision, please, kindly educate us less-educated individuals so that we may hop aboard your bandwagon.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2021-01-18 05:23:03

reading the thread now, and some blind people really disgust me....the negative attitudes and snarky remarks gives me that Donald trump vomit feel....thankfully devs don't have this mindset of "blind people will never and I mean never be able to play a game like this, so whats the bother in even trying to make it accessible"....main stream gaming is knocking down barriers and obsticles gradually throughout the months....we are seeing break through after break through, so miss me with the we will never be able to play this or that crap.....take that negative crap somewhehre else, don't fill this forum up with it

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2021-01-18 06:23:22 (edited by Dragons 2021-01-18 06:25:28)

Agreed with number 38!! Look at Playstation 5, so much accessibility improvement.

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2021-01-18 07:22:53

Been digging around and found a few other promising mods to include with Presence Footsteps, Sound Filters, Custom Interaction sounds, etc.

[AmbientSounds 3]: Adds dynamic biome specific sounds for day/night cycles, video [here].
[ItemSounds]: Picking up and dropping items in inventory makes unique identifying sounds for each item, not perfect as it has no highlighting or mouse positioning but could be useful. Also features the same unique sound identifiers when selecting items on the hot bar. Video [here].

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer

2021-01-18 10:00:34 (edited by Ethin 2021-01-18 10:06:38)

38-39, The only way MC would be fully accessible would be for it to be completely rewritten. To add accessibility in now would be extremely difficult and I doubt you could just do it with a mod. MC was never made with accessibility in mind. And until its completely rewritten with that in mind, we will never be able to fully enjoy the experience. Its not as simple as "add a mod here, a mod there, and boom, a fully immersive and accessible experience to people who are totally blind". I really don't think either of you understand just what you and your cohorts are proposing. The expenditure that MS would need would probably range in the millions of dollars, at minimum. The income they would reclaim because of totally blind players would not make up that loss, and therefore they see no need to actually do it, because the financial loss would outweigh the gain. Not to mention the amount of research required, too. Your talking about a massive overhaul of the entire game. Which is why, again, MS is not going to do it, along with any other company -- the loss that they would suffer would make it not worth the time and effort required.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2021-01-18 11:14:10

To all of you who say "Oh MC will be accessible soon, stop being so negative." that's nice and all, but where's your evidence/research/reference that will hold up to any kind of scrootiny? all you're bringing here is a load of (partly misplaced) optimism. When Ray Kurzwail foretold that humanity will reach a technological singularity by 2050, he based his prognosis on current trends in computing, the progress of moore's law, and prommissing breakthroughs in research related to new ways of computing. I could do a similar thing to what you're doing right now. I could say "Aliens are going to land tomorrow and they'll uplift us to a new reality plane! yayayayayayayayayayayay!" Or "Screw you all, Every single game will be accessible next week because all the devs suddenly had a change of heart! Let us celebrate with food and wine a plenty!" But I wouldn't have anything to base that off of. Accessible Tlou2 and the ps5 are completely different things to what you're proposing now. Both the games and the console were designed/redesigned with a11y in mind from the very beginning. Minecraft wasn't. And as Ethin was so friendly to point out, at this stage it's going to take a rewrite, which no one is willing to do considering the costs involved. Naughty Dog didn't have to do a rewrite for Tlou2. Even Soni's UI redesign with a11y for the ps5 wasn't out of the ordinary. Soni redoes the UI for every new console generation so it was just normal procedure for them.

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2021-01-18 12:08:56

We're still waiting for all y'all who are saying folks like Grannycheese, Ethin, Connor and myself are overly negative to give us a response.

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2021-01-18 23:23:07

it's amazing how people from a forum where they are supposed to fight for accessibility, have all this negativity.
wow.

I really must say incredible.


of course, since you asked the question, i will ask you who says you have been playing minecraft for 6 years, say no rewriting the code what they can do to make the game accessible.

man, everything is built on a principle, the developers themselves are trying to help us, and you who criticize. what do they even do?

imagine developers finding this topic and they read it.
imagine the frustration of something they are supposed to be developing, with a lot of effort? Sometimes the American blind community can be a little strange after all.

the complexity of things is not how they are made, but the mind of one as an individual can understand.


so crystal pokemon would never be accessible, just because a guy made a script for him. doom was not accessible just stayed a little bit because of a mod.

the last had no accessibility now it has.

xbox neither, now it has.

ps5, etc ... etc ...

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2021-01-18 23:52:36 (edited by Ethin 2021-01-18 23:59:08)

@44, Lets deconstruct your post:
1. The negativity is perfectly reasonable. The default view of "Its unlikely to happen" is very logical given the financial cost. Yes, the menus are accessible, but that's nowhere near enough.
2. A rewrite is required. As a developer myself, I can tell you that its highly unlikely that a few mods will make the entire game 100-percent accessible, if even 50-percent. And on systems where mods cannot be used -- such as on consoles -- you would definitely need a rewrite in that instance.
3. I guarantee that if the developers saw this negativity they would undoubtedly agree with what people like me are saying. There is a point where optimism can only get you so far. Do we wish to play MC? Yes. Does that mean that our desire to do so will make it happen? Not really. We can bloat the game with all the mods in the universe, but what about those areas where mods aren't available? What about those areas of the game where mods can't actually do anything? The developers of the game would need to pick up that slack, and those areas may be a lot more than we initially think.
Skepticism in this instance is warranted. Just because menus are accessible and we can send chat messages doesn't suddenly mean the developers are going to make the entire game accessible. Its like saying "Oh, the guys who work on Halo MCC have made the menus and chat messages accessible, so they're obviously going to make the entire game accessible". Sorry, but that's not a valid deduction. A lot goes into making a game fully accessible to people with disabilities, and if a game isn't initially written with that process in mind, when it comes time to actually do it its about 200-times harder than it would be if the game had been written with it in mind.
4. That one sentence -- "Sometimes the American blind community can be a little strange after all" -- is quite a presumption. How do you know that all of us who are feeling this negativity, this doubt, are American?
5. Yes, Xbox is accessible. Pokymon Crystal is accessible. That does not mean you can make a presumption that *every game* will suddenly become accessible. Nor does it mean that MC will, either.
Edit: would just like to add that this default view of negativity is warranted not just because of financial/rewrite considerations but because history has aptly demonstrated, repeatedly, the folly of hoping that a game will be made accessible -- or that anything will be made by a big corporation with the disabled in mind. A few times it has happened, but the overwhelming amount of evidence is still there, and there's too little evidence to suggest that times are truly changing for the better for us. Corporations will most likely do what they must because the law requires them to, not out of any sense of obligation towards people with disabilities, making their efforts lackluster at best. MS is an exception to this, but I don't think MS is going to expend huge amounts of money to rewrite Minecraft just for blind people.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2021-01-19 00:13:34 (edited by George_Gaylord 2021-01-19 00:14:40)

Yep. The American thing is super insultive. Not all people that speak english are american, its like if I said all Spanish people were from Spain or Mexico, or clumped the portuguese in there with the Spanish community as well. Nextly, you still haven't answered our question. What, has, to, be, done, to, make, Mine,craft, accessible? All you've done in this topic is play the blame game and overgeneralise and class over a billion english speakers, as American. You say we are negative, but what are you doing to solve the problem? If a developer reads the topic are they seeing anything actually of substance from those in support that it will be accessible? Are you giving points to sink the anti-optism ship? Or are you just trying to play the blame game and are just following what some random dude on the internet, who can still see a little mind you told you?


And another thing, the forum isn't even an American one, its a european one, and a dutch one at that.

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2021-01-19 01:07:33 (edited by zkline 2021-01-19 01:09:09)

Okay.

I'm becoming increasingly irritated by the tone of some of the messages in this thread, so here is a list of practical suggestions to make the game more accessible.

1. Indication of what block is being looked at, which already exists.
2. A method to determine what's in front of you, so you don't walk off into air. This might already exist too, I believe I saw something like it at some point.
3. Access to the in-game crafting reference and a way to tell where things need to be placed for that.
4. An indication of what's under the cursor for selection purposes.
5. Some more keyboard commands.
6. Support for identifying creatures and where they're coming from.

Pretty much everything except the last would make the game decently playable in creative mode. It's not 100% accessible, but it's more than enough to have fun.

2021-01-19 01:18:32

I hate to be this dude. But some of us think they're smarter than the rest of us, and that irritates me.

So JayJay wants "a response". Except now the inaccessibility argument is based on a lack of understanding of Minecraft. Whether you believe this is so because we lack exposure to the code, or because the only way to understand MC is to play and experience it, which we can't do because it's visual, doesn't really matter. Your argument claims we can't possibly explain how MC might be made accessible, because we can't understand it because reasons.

OK, great. But that means you're equally in the dark. If we can't make any statements about potential accessibility due to our lack of understanding, then we also can't make any statements about it's potential inaccessibility either. That same lack of understanding applies to you too.

I'm sorry that your own dumb argument defeats itself. But it does. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you're completely correct, and Minecraft will never be made accessible, because it is literally impossible to make it accessible. That's great. You're still wrong because you have no grounds whatsoever to make that claim. Because remember, none of us who are blind can ever really understand the game, which is precisely what we need to do in order to tell you how it might be made accessible. OK, but then you don't understand it either. So you have no grounds to claim that due to X Y and Z about the game or its code, it can never be made accessible, because you just got done telling us that none of us can possibly understand it.

So which is it? Can we understand it such that we should be able to make an ultimate determination concerning accessibility or lack thereof? Or can none of us really understand it, in which case, none of us can do that, according to your own argument? Pick one kids, you can't have both. This is what we call logic. You might want to try it some time or other, or maybe back off on the weird overblown knowledge claims you're making, huh?

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2021-01-19 02:04:12 (edited by Dan Gero 2021-01-19 02:08:46)

Just figured I'd come in and give my 2 cents.
I don't have confidence that Mine Craft will ever be made fully accessible for the simple reason that it's gotten so massive at this point and it's simply not worth it to go through all that code to make the game accessible. However, that doesn't mean that it's impossible to make it accessible. I firmly believe that everything in this world could potentially be made accessible, but I also believe that it might not always be worth tackling. Assuming the entire world miraculously knew about the blind community and that we were capable of doing damn near anything ever since the start of time, Mine Craft would have been fully accessible from the start, and for that matter, so would everything else. I guess my point is, while I don't think the developers are going to make the game fully accessible, it's certainly a lot of fun to think they would and I'd love to be proven wrong.
As I said before, I don't personally believe it's going to happen. Nevertheless, while it might be true, that's negative talk. I'm not saying you shouldn't be skeptical, of course. What I am saying is, there's a healthy balance between optimism and skepticism, and most of you either swing heavily to one side or the other. There's a way to have this discussion without tearing each other’s heads off. Allow me to demonstrate using the first 8 posts.

Original Posts wrote:

1:
So Microsoft posted this video to Twitter today. He seems to have some limited useful vision, and he implies that it helps him in the game. I'm running a PC with an XBox controller, a classic if that matters, and I also have Steam if it's needed. I'm running Win 10 with the latest NVDA.
So like the subject says, can we play it?
2:
Sorry, no.
3:
@2: Why so negative?
4:
@3, be real. It will never be actually accessible or totally enjoyable. What is it with blind people and this blind dream about minecraft? I mean, being able to move around and stuff may be usable, however building, exploring correctly, and all the other things normal enjoy will either not be practically made accessible, or at least in five years.
5:
I mean Gamulation is making a mod pack for it. So we will see how that goes.
6:
No, and it never will be.
7:
Man, you folks are kinda pissy sometimes ain't?
8:
Well, what's there and what's needed for us to be able to play it is an ocean's width apart in difference.

Civil Version of Posts wrote:

1:
So Microsoft posted this video to Twitter today. He seems to have some limited useful vision, and he implies that it helps him in the game. I'm running a PC with an XBox controller, a classic if that matters, and I also have Steam if it's needed. I'm running Win 10 with the latest NVDA.
So like the subject says, can we play it?
2:
Unfortunately, no. Sorry for the answer, you were probably hoping for something better.
3:
@2: Aww, that kind of sucks.
4:
@3, yeah. It's great that progress is being made, but I personally can't see it being made fully accessible or enjoyable. Maybe moving around and stuff would be doable, but I think building, exploring correctly, and all the other things people normally enjoy will either not be practically made accessible, or at least in five years.
5:
I mean Gamulation is making a mod pack for it. So we will see how that goes.
6:
I honestly don't think so.
7:
Is there not enough resources available or something?
8:
Yeah; what's there and what's needed for us to be able to play it is an ocean's width apart in difference.

There might be some errors I made in writing style or what have you, but I think everyone sees the general picture here. A lot of things in this discussion would remain exactly the same, but the atmosphere would be so much friendlier. It's really not too hard to have a civil discussion while expressing your point of view, guys. If it is too hard to remain civil while expressing yourself, take a breather, go grab a glass of tea or whatever beverage suits your fancy, and just scroll to another topic. Trust me, it'll help you just as much as it does the members of the discussion.

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2021-01-19 02:09:34

Well, now we're getting down to brass tax. Is it possible, yes. Is it feasible, no. Just like it's possible that the native instruments UI could become accessible, or how the VST plugins I regularly use, including soft synths could be made accessible. DO I think this is likely to happen any time soon? No.

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