2020-09-25 14:16:44

I've heard people say that blindness is actually a different way of looking at things.
The first time I heard it, I didn't agree at all and I started to wonder what could make some people believe that.
tThen I realized that a blind man is obliged to be ambitious and determined for to comes to achieving dreams, etc., in order to cope in life.
But this argument does not stand, because it is not necessary to be blind to be determined in life.
And I came to the same question: why do some people think that their disability is not what is meant by this word?
The inability to play mainstream games, the inaccessibility of important applications, the need for help from another person to do simple things, the need for additional software to handle like a normal person, the engines that recognize different images that still can not do that as a human being, all this seems to me to confirm the idea that our disability is disability and that's it.
Don't get me wrong, I respect the developers who do their best to make our lives as easy as possible and I am aware that I could never code such programs, due to the difficulties I have even when I try to make a virtual piano. and I am aware that OCR is improving day by day and that, at some relatively appropriate time, the difference between us and other people will be almost imperceptible.
I'm curious what you think about that.

2020-09-25 14:33:15

People just don't like to admit that their disability is actually a disability. Saying that blindness is just a different way of looking at things is basically saying "I don't feel good about myself so I have to lie about something I actually have no control over instead of improving on things that I do." This is a trigger point for some people on this forum though so I'm sure people will disagree with me and this topic might become a clusterfuck. But I do think it's an interesting discussion.

2020-09-25 15:31:33

@lucas
I'm afraid you might be generalising there a little bit.
Yes I agree that for many (and probably a mejurity) of the people on here that may be the reason but its by far not 'all'-certainly not all blind people, for those stretch far beyond the extents of this forum.
In my case, if and when i say, "Blindness is not a disability but a different way of looking at things," all I really mean is that I'm aware of what the disability is but when i change my way of referring to it, I do not try to change what it is but my mindset instead, and the mindset of others around me-and move on in life, trying to improve on the things that are indeed in  my control and trying to be a better human being day by-day and aasking the people to have similar expectations from me as well.
So, essentially what you said, except it doesn't have to be the steriotype entitled blindy state of mind necessarily.

Abay chal.

2020-09-25 15:50:59

No this isn't a direct answer but it is related to your question, I'm going to key off fo something Blair/Illuminati said in one of her youtube videos and it got me thinking.

I feel like media/society is to blame for this. HOw so? Let's see...

The way disabled people are treated in general by society, but also by media. Blair touched on something I found fascinating in her video, which I'll link below. She calls it 'supercrip' which frankly just makes me think of a disabled gangbanger....but what she means by that, is showing disabled people in media overcoming their disability, no, 'overcoming', and generalizing that anyone can do it. She also hits on the notion of being rewarded for doing everyday tasks by people going oh, you are so brave and so amazing... type comments and rewarding people, from society at large, to other disabled people. Blair also makes a point in that video that disabled is a much, much easier blanket term to use than going okay we got blind people, deaf people, amputees, etc. It's easier to just use disabled for a group as a whole. Like visually impaired is used for people who have somee vision and blind people alike.

Said video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omlNYt782mw

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2020-09-25 15:52:11

I think it's toxic positivity drivel to say it's not a disability, or even worse, it's just a different type of ability. If an individual doesn't possess a functional ability that is normal for humans, that individual has a disability. This is where I feel people get themselves messed up. They see all this crap about it being a different way to look at things, and that basically programs their brain to start deflecting hard truths.

If you swallow the truth that you are blind, that you lack an ability that most other people have, and that you will experience trials and tribulations that others will not, you will be on the way to a better life. You will work through the emotional load that you will not get to do some of the things you want to in your life, because of some genetic bullshit. You will get to the other side and be able to tell yourself something like, "Well, even though I will never be a fighter pilot, I can still swim, run a marathon, cook, get married and have children, etc.

To me, it's maladaptive to hide away from the fact that you have a disability. And you don't have to let it define you. I see being disabled as having two separate meanings. The first is a legal or literal term meaning simply that one does not possess a particular ability or abilities intrinsic to human beings. The second is more like a state of mind or a state of being. In other words, someone may be considered technically disabled, but not so if the life they lead is one where they do all the things that anyone else would do.

It gets crazier though, because what about someone with a prosthetic leg? With the leg on, they're functional, so they're not really disabled per se. With these new ones that are bionic in the way they work and not just a wooden peg, what happens if the leg malfunctions? Well then they are disabled. But are they really ever not. With the leg, they can walk. If they have a modern prosthetic, they can run and do all sorts of stuff. So the ability to use both limbs isn't lost.

But what I really don't like are when people try to skate around from just saying words like blind. We don't need to confuse the situation more with terms like, "Differently abled" which really irks me by the way. People should be taught that blind or deaf isn't a naughty word and that people won't take offense to it. Using terms like that just helps to widen the gulf between disabled and non-disabled people even further. I sort of wish people would be willing to point out the commonalities between the two, rather than the differences. Because we really do want many of the same things as everyone else.

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2020-09-25 16:13:19

@cross that's exactly what i mean though. I'm not completely disregarding the truth, but yet interpretting the whole thing in a different way that i am blind, and yes "blind" not "differently abled or whatever else people say these days cause for some reason they think that it is disrespectful to say blind? I dont see how, we're blind, so we say that we're blind. But yeah, I'm blind but i'm capable of leading a normal life and not hold on to that one not being able to see factor and either sitting in a corner complaining and crying my entire life, nor being all entitled and demanding. I'm just trying to lead a normal life as much as I can.

Abay chal.

2020-09-25 16:38:18

It's denial.  End of discussion.  From the blind people it's denial that they're limited.  From the sighted people it's denial that the world isn't so great for us and they need to do more.  If you're "differently able" or whatever, no need to feel bad about it, it's just a "unique way of looking at the world".  Then you get to sweep everything else under the rug.  Maybe some disabled people need that denial to function, but it's also a great way to limit yourself, and the same sighted people that say this are often the ones who are amazed that you can use a knife.

I think that the blindness version of this probably also in part comes from not having experience of vision.  I rarely ever see people who went blind later saying this.  If you've never had vision, then it's not *that* hard to assume that sighted people must have lots of limitations like yours, and if you then add a dose of differently able at the right age, be it from a  parent or teacher or whatever, there you go.

Concretely, to head off all the people who will eventually show up to claim that we're wrong and blind people aren't limited, answer this.  You lose your job tomorrow.  A sighted person goes out and finds another one, say retail or fast food or something, and it's a terrible job, but it puts food on the table until they can sort out something better.  You go out and do what?  Applying for benefits isn't allowed because that's admitting that you need help from the government because you're limited, and ignore the pandemic.

To be clear I have no problem with people on benefits, and used to be myself, I'm just making a point.

Also, technology will *not* put us on equal footing with the sighted ever, unless it just makes us sighted.  It's a nice dream.  Maybe the self-driving car gets you close to your final destination, and sure that's helpful, but oops it put you on the wrong side of the street and yeah you can deal with that, but you still have to deal with it.  or that OCR thing is so great, except now it's time to sign and initial, good luck lining up the pencil, or the GPS is Florida and a bad thunderstorm is on the horizon blocking the satellites, or whatever.  It can make our lives much better, and it will, but anywhere even close to the sighted, not unless you get brain implants or--more unlikely--a human-equivalent artificial intelligence to act as your assistant.

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2020-09-25 16:43:50

My inability to see does not define who I am; it just spells out what I cannot do.  That is why I do not personally refer to it as a disability.  That I cannot see is no different to the idea that I cannot fly.  That is an inability.  While I see the fact that there is a majority of people around me who obviously can see and are doing quite well in their every day lives, even they need help from me from time to time, so are they disabled when I can pass on a bit of information or help them otherwise achieve a task they could not do without me?  Nah, they just needed help.
And in the end, that's what I believe this is all about.  That minoritys are not helped out more often even though they should be is more owing to narcicism rather than anything else; there's a lack of compassion in the case of many when they are not directly involved in or with a situation and or facing certain circumstances.  No, it is not easier to refer to this as an inability; it is easier to refer to it as a disability because lets cry out disability and we're all a bunch of entitled little twists who deserve are rights right now!
No, I'm not discounting blindness is a huuuuuuge hindrance.  No, I'm not opposing the idea that it can mess you up physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, psychologically, spiritually!  No, I'll never say that you can do anything they can do even if you're blind, because you just can't!  You can't pick up a set of keys and drive a car like they can!  You can't safely cross every street like they can!  You can't tell from a picture what you should order like they can!  You can't sit in front of a TV or a big screen and enjoy a show or movie like they can!  If you're blind, these and other things are off limits to you for the most part!  You can't; they can!
And I live with it!  Every, day!  My children are drawing and I can't see their pictures.  My children are struggling to learn to read books and I can't just pick them up and help them with that!  My children see things every day that I do not see, try to show me things they cannot conceptualize, and I'm sure they wish they could just yell at me, "Look at it!  Just, freaking look at it already!  What's the matter with you!"
but this is still just something I can't do.  Has it stopped me from living my life to the fullest?  Arbuable.  Has it stopped me from living my life completely?  Naturally, no.  In some cases I'm one step ahead of the sighted community.  My mom, for all her sight, still can't grasp computers.  She does not know that there are so many ways for her to keep in touch with her grandchildren!  My dad?  My dad doesn't even like holding a phone if he can help it!  My brother?  Every time he goes and plays poker or goes and downloads new crapware onto his PC he's wondering what he did wrong and why it's behaving so stupidly!  Who fixes it?  I do!  Does he learn from it?  Not a bit.  Is he disabled?  Not a bit.
so yes... I see our blindness; take that as you wil!  Some people have it better than I do with light perception or shadow or what have you!  I see nothing, and that nothingness is something that if I tried to put into words would just depress me even further!  But that's where it stops, because to keep looking at it would disable me, and that's where I think a fair amount of people do stop!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-09-25 19:45:12

This reminds me of something that I both learned in class and that I have to keep in mind while taking my boards. Apparently now abled health professionals think that they should put the disability second. For example according to this I'm a man that is blind not a blind man. I honestly don't see a difference and don't see the need for changing words around. Does it make those that are abled feel better when addressing a disabled person? Or do they think it makes us feel better? I don't know but I find it to be odd.

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2020-09-25 19:49:21

The hypocrisy is that they would probably do that thinking it helps, while at the same time demeaning you and talking to others about you when you're present in the room.

If you care, show it with your actions. The order of the words may be symbolic, but we're not in the business of reading symbolism from everything around us.

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2020-09-25 20:22:46

I don't necessarily disagree with "person who's x" as compared to "the x person" distinction, and I think I'm even mildly in favor with the first formulation.

For me, it's about facets vs. identities. Thinking of someone as "an x person" generally (not contextually, I'll get to that in a bit) where x is a category seems to define their identity solely in reference to the category itself, whereas "a person who's x" defines the person to be an object to whom the category's facets get assigned, but (importantly) the object is not just the category-they may fall into other categories (musician, coder, husband, so on and so fourth) which modify them in other ways.

Now, in specific contexts such as disability services, I don't think this is that important. A widow in a funereal context would not be aided by being called "someone who's husband is dead", and similarly in disability services (where the focus is specifically on the disability) I don't necessarily see the value of the first formulation. But I like it for keeping my thoughts appropriately boundaried, if nothing else.

2020-09-25 20:55:43

Thing about "person who is blind" is that you've just shifted it from being defined as the blind person to now you're the person where everyone who has been taught this has to remember that you're not the blind person but the person who is blind.  Which, I mean, if I can think of something more self-defeating I can't do it offhand.

Maybe it'll eventually change language and maybe that matters, but if we change language so that it's the noun who is adjective, we've not changed anything--the person who is tall, the person who is short, the person who is blind, we're right back where we started, it's just now the rule that we write adjectives that way in this hypothetical future, but people will still have adjective-first thinking.

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2020-09-25 21:19:49

Yeah, I don't think this works if it's something that's enforced, and I'm very much not advocating for that. What I'm advocating for is...I guess...teaching people the categories-being-modifiers rather than categories-being-definitions distinction, which perhaps is a bit of a tall order for a syntactic change, heh.

But...there seem to be a bunch of adjectives which drag a whole social context behind them, and there are some that don't. tall/short/etc. would be something I put in the second category. Blindness on the other hand (among other things) seems to be something that a lot of people react to in predictable ways. And maybe it would be useful to emphasize blindness being a significant but not all-encompassing thing. Then again, maybe not.

2020-09-25 21:34:58

It doesn't matter where the word is.  You can play with language all you want.  People aren't going to think differently because you moved the word blind around.  They're going to think differently because you're not able to meet their gaze, for lack of a better way of putting it.  Not just that, but all the other little things that just scream to the world "I am blind!" that we all do all the time.

Thing is that most blind people do actually live up to the sighted stereotypes.  Want to change what sighted people think?  Start there.  If you aren't interacting with such blind people, that's because even getting as far as being on the internet is a major accomplishment, to be honest.  Go blind later in life and even leaving the house again is a major accomplishment.

It's not like race or something.  Yeah sighted people should totally evaluate us based on us, not on the disability, but if you actually want to say that the stereotype isn't more accurate than not, that's an immediately losing battle by miles, because it is sadly highly accurate.  A bit self-fulfilling, but that doesn't change the point.  If you want to get people to stop applying the stereotype the first step is to make the stereotype inaccurate, not play word games.

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2020-09-25 22:29:03 (edited by George_Gaylord 2020-09-25 22:33:06)

No matter how independently you live, you're still disabled in someway. End of text. No point Now, I'm not saying those of you that have families, jobs, etc aren't normal, the fact of the matter is your eyeballs do not function properly, or at all, so they are disabled. That's liike having a computer with a non-functioning skeyboard. ould you say because everything else works correctly its perfect, and not defective? Sure, you can get a mechanical keyboard, but its still a owrkaround none the less. Don't get the iidea I'm comparing us to tech, I'm just trying to make a comparison so you can get the idea from my point of view

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2020-09-26 00:04:37

8, the comparasons you make are wrong and flawed in many ways. Firstly,  not being able to fly etc cannot be considered on the same grounds as having a disability.  Flying, never has  been, and probably never will be, a normal human ability possessed by anyone. Nieether is it necesary to perform any daily task normal people do. Sighted people needing help isn't the same as a disabled person needing help iether. We need help because a part of our body, that should have been functioning isn't, and we  are in a situation requiring use of that faculty. However,  a sighted relative needing help on a computer is a fundementally different situation. Most people don't know everything to an advanced level. Your relatives likely don't care about computers, or want to know anything about them beyond surfing the net or playing games. Similarly, some blind people might not care about music, or coding to devote the time for advanced knowledge. However, I can garantee, if an executive order was issued that said all companies must relieve employees who aren't power windows users within a year, everyone suddenly would be massively good at computers, and would be competing with each other. In essence, the sighted person chooses not to learn or know something, and can easily learn something if they want to. But the blind person has a fundemental defesit that is independant of efort, and cannot be corrected.
Camlorn, I honestly thought I was the only one understanding the reality of blindness. What people like yourself and me are saying here isn't that people should jump off a cliff  or hang themselves because they realize they have many more limitations that are perminent. What I am saying is that people should simply accept these, not deny them, and move on. But  the reality undoubtidly is that blindness is a very severe disability. It probably easily is the one of the top 5 most severe disabilities anyone can have, when you analyze the daily impact, loss of sensory information etc. Also, blindness combined with another sensory disability or serious medical condition probably would rank in the top 3. Blindness basicly rewires the brain, making it much more dificult to understand spacial concepts etc, but also more importantly, 70% of the  information sighted people get comes through their eyes. I don't think anyone who is born blind truly understands the enormity of that.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2020-09-26 01:29:52

I think whether or not blindness is a disability really depends on how you look at it. I mean, sure there are some things you simply cannot do if you are blind, but there are a great, many more that you still can. If one is willing to try at it, then yes a blind person could easily play a great, many mainstream games, though there are some that may not be possible. Yes, a blind person could easily start his?her own business and be very successful at it. I know that, legally speaking, blindness is considered a disability. However, for me personally, I don't look at it that way entirely. I see it as more of a major inconvenience at times rather than an outright disability, and that is because, other than some things we can't do, most of what folks do in life is very open for us as well. I have had many an interesting discussion with people about this topic in the past, and it's interesting to hear some of the various thoughts that some folks have on this.

2020-09-26 01:48:02

Just because you can do many things a sighted person doesn't mean you don't have a disability, or blindness isn't a disability. Look at it this way, the tasks you perform aren't iquivalant to the sighted. We usually have to put in at least twice the efort and energy to accomplish many tasks. We are slower and less efficient on many of them, which puts you at a disadvantage, both in jobs, and life in general as you have less time available.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2020-09-26 02:32:57

@8, thumbs up. I view things the same way. Whilee I see my blindness for what it is, its not stopping me from living my life. And yes, I might not be able to drive or do a lot of stuff completely on my own, but i've learned to live with it. That is not to say that we are completely incapable of doing said stuff. Granted not on our own of course, but if we have people who are willing, then yes, we can do stuff we normally cant do. Take flying as an example. i've piloted a plane more than once. While i'm fully aware this is a impossibility to do alone and i'll never be able to get it 100percent, I have done it with people who have been willing to let me have that experience. I believe there is a massive problem here; when people say or think about disability, they are automaticly in a mindset of, I cant do so and so, even if the opportunity where to present itself in front of them, I.e: someone asking if they would like to pilot a aircraft for instance. The problem is that many people when saying, i'mm disabled, put such a barrier that even when the opportunity presents itself to do something they normally couldn't do on their own, they think, I cant do it. Yes, i'm blind. Yes, i have a disability. Yes, it has its limitations and whatnot, but I'm not one to let those limitations become more than what they are.

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2020-09-26 08:56:22

Blindness is legally and socially speaking a disability, whatever you make of it. If we want to analyse disability in a different way, then disability is classified as something else, regardless of whether one is blind or not. That I can use my iPhone with voiceover is my ability; that a sighted person cannot use an iPhone with voiceover is his disability. That I can get some information that many sighted individuals cannot get through hearing is my ability and respectively their disability. However, disability in terms of what one has or owns as opposed to what one can do or cannot do, is a totally diffrent concept. Disability in the case of having a physical/mental/sensory limitation should by no means be disregarded or avoided because that way we are partly and sometimes largely denying what we have and what we should live with everyday. Of course there are workarounds and this is definitely the best time to be blind because many issues we have have been considered, reproduced and solved; however that doesn't mean we are not blind or that the disability is totally overcome. It's true that sometimes we can do what our sighted counterparts cannot do; it is true that we are skilled, that we have impeccable memory and stuf of this nature, but this comes always as a result of the struggle of our brain for communication and information. The lack of sight as well plays a significant role because our brain is not fludded with information that we would otherwise get if we were not blind: the colour of one's hair, the colour of one's jacket, the brand of one's glasses, one's look and movement and the whole body language is separate information that the brain has to process and this of course involves energy and effort. Our brain, however, is focused somewhere else and that enables us to perfection some skills that we acquire due to blindness. Have you ever thought about how different your lives would be if you weren't blind? How many of us would have this lifestyle that we have today.
To conclude what I have said, and to lay out my viewpoint, blindness in our case is a disability and anything else is wordplay or philosophical discussion that won't lead us anywhere. Thankfully, just as in other facets of life, many of the chritical issues we have are solved and this is probably the time where people with visual impairments can make the best out of their lives and achieve what three/four decades ago was unthinkable. My idea is, teach your sighted friends, colleagues and anyone close to you that you can do most of the things they can but in an alternative way which leads to the same result, and they will be really happy to accept who and how you are.

2020-09-26 09:46:20

Personally, I don't think the blind have a better memory than other people.
Specifically, 80% of the information is obtained by sight.

2020-09-26 16:13:19 (edited by Nocturnus 2020-09-26 16:14:35)

Well I did hear at least one thing that sparked my interest and which got me to somewhat reevaluate my point in post 8, which is that more often than not those of us who succeed are viewed as very motivated and capable, or to simplify with a word, strong.  The catch here is that, in order to succeed as a blind person, you kind of have to be.  Someone on this topic brought up the idea that yes once a sighted person is out of work they can go get another job immediately even if the job is just cleaning crud off of a counter to put money on the table.  I lost count of how many jobs my brother's had, but I do know that I've had to work twice as hard in every circumstance.  Depending on how you view success, I suppose I'd have to concede that he made out better than I have.  He played basketball while in highschool, had hot chicks pounding on his door, had a child by the time he was 18, had his own car not too long after, went and worked out of state, and my mother loves him to bits, which has helped him out of tight binds even when he's mad at her.
I'm not without my own fair share... I've won various contests and tallent shows, made a fair amount of money throughout my life with my own hands, graduated with honors, was voted most tallented and likely to succeed in highschool, met a US president... No, it wasn't Donald Trump.  I suppose, however, that in the end if you put us toe to toe sighted people would be more likely to talk to him than to me regardless of how many honors or whatever I've managed to acquire.  If sight versus blindness is the real culprit and I've been too dense to see it for what it is, then I'll always be the underdog.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-09-26 17:15:01

To understand  the limitation of blindness I think this analogy that Camlorn mentioned is appropriate, though he said it in a slightly different way than I will. Imagine there is a copy machine, and it makes a total and complete copy of  you in every way, with your character, knowledge, experiences, and worldviews, as well as skills, minus blindness. That copy of you would be much more successful and capable, and be more efficient at performing tasks. It basicly boils down to this.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."