Enes, if they created it as a weapon, I agree with you. There isn't really any evidence of that, but I'd agree. Potential war crime.

That said, all the articles I read and then cited myself don't actually point at this. It looks very much like these viruses were being studied because they routinely infect and kill humans. Intent does matter here. If you're studying these viruses in the hopes of mapping their genome and thus being better armed to treat, cure or vaccinate, then that's worthwhile, and an accident is an accident. Of course, if you're doing it because you want to create a biological weapon, that's definitely a bad thing.
However, if that ends up being the case, then everyone involved needs to pay the price, not just China. China is by no means the only country with an active biological warfare division, and by no means the only country that's ever fucked up, or been accused of fucking up, on such a scale.

But as I said, there is enough evidence for me, at present, to look at this as a freak occurrence either from a civilian infection from a bat, and viral mutation, or from someone who, in the course of benign research, was unknowingly infected and passed it along.

All of these questions are wonderfully theoretical, but they definitely do not change our responsibility now that the coronavirus is here and flourishing. Even if we find out tomorrow in a tell-all that it was deliberately China's fault, that doesn't suddenly mean we go back to business as usual and forget the wearing of masks.

@Jayde, not that I'd invite my worst enemy to Texas right now for a whole host of reasons, but if you're ever down around Austin, hit me up for plenty of your beverage/intoxicant of choice. You, sir, are a rhetorical tank.

There was evidence that showed issues at that Chinese lab, issues that were deliberately covered up by the World Health organization and the Chinese government at that time. Add to this something even more interesting that has been happening over the last few days, maybe somewhat longer. It seems that folks here in the united States have been receiving unsolicited packages containing seeds, and these unsolicited packates are verified to have come from China. I don't know what is up with that, but we have a virus that started there, and now this recent development. People had better wake up and realize that there is way more going on here than just some stupid virus. Yes, the virus is real. Yes, it has affected, and will affect, people in various ways, I never said it wouldn't and that it didn't. However, we're really headed for trouble here, and this infighting, brought about by the narrative of the media, the lawmakers, and some of these experts is only helping, and has only helped, to add more fuel on to that fire. One thing is for sure, this is certainly a very historical time in our world's history. The funny thing is that while it feels like something that we've never seen before, I can't help but feel that this is all somehow very familiar in some strange sort of way.

Nolan, that brought a smile. I'm glad someone appreciates this. It might seem like I'm having fun doing it, but I'm not. I tend to argue far more gently if I respect the point of view of the person I'm arguing with, but once I hit a point where I just can't give any more fucks about being gentle...well, we're here now.

Accman, cool on you for totally not addressing any of the points I made.

Ignatriay, cool on you for pretty much invalidating anything else you might have to say on this subject by 1. invoking the Bible, 2. playing off scaremongering of China/Russia (seriously, do you have an anti-communist or anti-socialist phobia?) and 3. like Accman, pretty much ignoring everything I said. Clearly, you're going to believe whatever gonzo bullshit happens to catch your eye at the minute, so you go on and do that. Maybe go hang out with Accman for awhile. You two can be happy not wearing masks. Maybe he'll even throw in a bullhorn or two so you can trumpet your conspiracy theories to the masses. I hear Time Square is really good for that sort of thing...or used to be, anyway.

AnIdiot, thanks for the heads-up re: Fox News. Fox News is notoriously right-wing. That doesn't mean it can't be trusted at all, but it does unfortunately mean that they have a decidedly pro-Trump, pro-GOP angle to serve. I take very far left and very far right sources with a huge grain of salt, and Fox News is one of the huge offenders.

This is the first I've heard about unsolicited packages containing seeds. Hmm, let's check
out a trusted source:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/china-seed-mailings/
This indicates that while the packages are real, and the seeds are real, the motive is unknown. There also appears to be very little data concerning the specifics. Who exactly is sending the seeds? Are they Chinese, or just pretending to be Chinese? Are the seeds harmful, helpful or neither? What is the reason for their being sent out at all?
It's definitely peculiar. I have a few theories. I can't validate any of these, they're just conjecture. In no particular order:
1. Chinese government
Rationale: There really is trouble afoot, and China wants to fuck with other world powers after getting egg on its face
Likelihood: low; this seems like a pretty stupid stunt to pull if you're a national government, since it would be easy enough to trace and leverage sanctions
2. An independent Chinese group
Rationale: same as above, but more personally motivated (hatred of America, hatred of western society)
Likelihood: low; China isn't precisely a hot-bed of terrorism, and there just isn't enough identifying proof
3. A random group with a grudge, pretending to be Chinese
Rationale: There's a lot of anti-Chinese bullshit going around; some of it is based in fact, some of it has been blown out of all shape and reason; why not do something dodgy and blame it on China to make them look worse?
Likelihood: low to moderate; China has made a lot of enemies, and sort-of enemies, over the years, and this might be a subtle way to make them look bad anonymously
4. The American government
Rationale: Trump; racism; strong anti-China bias in many governmental circles; need I say more?
Likelihood: low to moderate; as I stated above, there are a lot of reasons -not to do this if you're a world power, and very few that are actually worthwhile; still, since the American government has already shown signs of being willing to attack and harm its own citizens (see Oregon arrests, tear gas on peaceful protestors, etc), this isn't completely off the table

The fact is, we just don't know what the fuck this is yet. For what it's worth, I very strongly doubt this is political. It's probably going to go back to something more inane, as my Snopes article points out.

As far as the seeds go... Weather they where actually from china or not; this is adding more fuel to the fire reguardless of where they came from.

Akman, you have hit new highs in trying to lend creedence to bullshit claims. First, the idea that 5g is in any way related to coronavirus is pure bullshit, pure and simple, and a dangerous conspiracy theory, as telecommunications  personell were attacked, and  crazy idiots have been setting cell towers on fire. Coronavirus has spread very well in areas that e ven don't have any 5g, so. Maybe when 99% of the world has multi-gigabit speeds, and you are still stuck with shit DSL you will relalize this however.

Another of your falicies, even if evidence existed to lend  creedence to the possibility of the chinese government dellibrately splicing virus genoms to create it, it doesn't excuse your rebellion against common sense coronavirus regulations, or your refusal to wear a mask. You are still are acting wrecklessly and endangering people regardless of where the virus came from.

That's it! 5g is what causes covid! Let's burn all 5g phones and towers down! /s
Seriously though, how can 5g relate to covid? That just doesn't make any sense.

The seed packets are peculiar, but right now we simply do not have enough info about them. As my post said, they might very well be part of a greater conspiracy. Or they might be unrelated. Or they might have been planted (ha, see what I did there?) precisely to make it look more like a conspiracy. We simply do not have enough evidence either way right now.

The same is true for the deliberate-spread hypothesis. Is it technically possible? Sure. But here's a fundamental difference between you and me, Accman. You see it's possible and immediately decide to act as if it's probable. I see that it's possible and immediately ask for proof before I'll swallow it whole. Pretty much the entirety of your platform comes down to this divide.

Regarding 5G and coronavirus, take a look at this:
https://theconversation.com/four-expert … gan-139137

It's long, so settle in. Basically, my takeaways from it are these:
1. The 5g-coronavirus theory got started largely on Twitter, and there was a great deal of association with Donald Trump; this doesn't mean that Trump did it or even endorsed it, but it does suggest a right-wing source or affiliation
2. 5g-coronavirus theory is a scare tactic, and has no basis in science

There's a lot more, but the thing I really want to focus on here is this whole idea of scaremongering.

Those of you who read this and identify as right of center, politically speaking, really ought to sit up and take note of this.

According to the article I linked, as well as others I have read, virtually all of the scary, implausible theories you'll see about Covid-19 are linked to conservative ideology. I'll go through a few, shall I?
1. "Covid-19 was deliberately released so that 5G technology could be rammed through uncontested. Once it's up and running, people will have to get mandatory vaccines, which will contain microchips for who knows what purpose."
Analysis: Scary, I suppose, if you actually believe this shit. There is no evidence to prove or even partially prove any of this. Most of this smacks of the "you can't control us" rhetoric so prevalent on the right at this point (and, let's be real, throughout the last several decades, at the very least).
2. "Covid-19 was someone's idea to kill Donald Trump's re-election chances."
Analysis: I can't imagine the level of stupid you have to be to actually believe this without proof. Maybe Donald Trump will fail because, oh, I dunno, he's Donald fucking Trump and he's made a dog's dinner of America since being elected? Maybe the man was never fit to be president of anything in the first place. The point is, those who are supportive of this theory very often have a strong pro-Trump bias, and are looking for any excuse, anything at all, to deflect from the man's failures. It's very convenient, then, to blame this on his "enemies". Great scapegoating, am I right?
3. "Covid-19 is a deliberate attack on the world by China. See how fast they got over it, and how badly other countries like America still struggle? China is clearly making a power play here, and they need to be stopped."
Analysis: The "us vs. them" philosophy is a huge part of right-wing politics, and hatred of China, while it does appear in all walks of the political spectrum, is especially prevalent on the right, where nationalism is high and xenophobia (in this context, the fear and mistrust of other countries) is high as well. While it is technically possible that this theory ends up being true, the evidence to support it is minimal at best. Swallowing this theory whole means you're the sort of person who is gullible enough to believe virtually anything you hear, if it aligns with your previous narrative. Either way, it drums up anti-China sentiment and attempts to blame someone for the coronavirus pandemic.
4. "5g itself causes coronavirus."
Analysis: There is absolutely no indication that this is true. People have been trying to peddle fear about microwaves, radiation and virtually all other power sources for decades; this is nothing new. This one is not the sole purview of the right, I'll admit, but it does have a home there.

And now, by contrast. You know what we're doing on the left? We're trying to protect people by asking them to wear masks. We're trying to make sure nobody gets illegally arrested (America's got a huge, huge problem with that right now). We're trying to make sure no one gets illegally evicted (Ontario just passed a problematic bill, rammed through by a conservative government, which will make it easier to evict tenants for lack of rent). We're trying to reopen the economy in stages and with care, so that people can have some of their freedom back without all getting sick. We're trying to focus on the nuts and bolts of dealing with the pandemic. We aren't trying to scare you about where the virus came from. We aren't trying to scare you by telling you how deadly this virus is (anyone misusing fear this way should be condemned for it). We aren't trying to scare you into being mistrustful of others. We aren't trying to scare you into staying home all the time. We aren't trying to scare you by showing excessive force. We aren't trying to scare you by arresting you or detaining you in Covid-riddled facilities (yes, it's happening, just check out Omaha). We aren't, in short, trying to scare you by denying your rights when it's convenient for us.

So I ask you: who exactly is using fear during this pandemic? Because it sure as fuck isn't the left.

lol Nice passive-aggressive insults there, bro. Playing the part of submissives, indeed. Don't make me laugh.

Are you going to do anything about the accusations of scaremongering I'm levelling at right-wingers? Because you appear to be one of them. You're trumpeting all the doctrine and appear to have swallowed all but the last sip or so of your poisoned Kool-Aid. I hear that stuff is bitter and messes with your ability to live a meaningful life, but having never taken a taste, what do I know?

The moment you can actually mount a case of meaningful evidence against China, against the left, or in favour of anything else you've tried to support, I'll take the argument seriously. The fact that I haven't really done it yet implies not that I'm ignoring facts, but that your standards of proof are ridiculously low so long as the things you're trying to prove align with your preferred agenda.
Coronavirus originated in China? Well god damn! They must have done it on purpose; that's the only reason they'd cover it up. No other evidence is needed. No other proof is required. No other logic can possibly fit. This must be it. If you subscribe to the narrative with the most proof and the greatest mathematical likelihood of success, you're clearly delusional. That's math for ya.
Fauci was caught without a mask in a photo? Heathen! Hypocrite! Somebody get the pitchforks and run him out of office! No excuse is good enough to justify requiring a drink of water. Clearly he's just flaunting his freedom to break the rules he suggests everyone else should live by. Anyone suggesting we wear a mask must die in under four days, since they're clearly not allowed to lower it for any reason under any circumstances. Well, I guess that's one way to kill off leftists. If they drink water, they're hypocrites; if they don't, they die of thirst. How convenient! Why didn't we think of this before?
D.C. lawmakers don't have to wear masks while everyone else does? Well son of a bitch! What the hell is wrong with you people anyway? How can I take lawmakers seriously if they don't follow their own rul--oh wait, so you're saying that federal property can't enforce this law? Uh, well they should still be wearing masks. Except Trump, of course. Now can we pretend this never happened, please? I have a pathological allergy to admitting mistakes. Kind of goes with the whole platform, don't ya know.
Suspicious packages of seeds are showing up in America? Chinese writing, Chinese seeds...it's all too convenient. It's a conspiracy to fuck with our great country. Never mind evidence-gathering. Never mind figuring out truth. Truth is whatever we think it is, by gum! Jesus, does this Kool-Aid ever taste good. Wanna try some? I promise it only rots the part of your brain that lets you think clearly.
Masks don't work. Except they do work, sort of. Except your odds of getting sick are exactly the same whether you wear a mask or not. Look, I don't get it either. Math bends itself conveniently around our ideology so it can mean whatever we say it does. Now seriously, how about that Kool-Aid?

I could go on for a whole lot longer, but that's pretty much how you look right now, Accman. Short of a tell-all from trustworthy sources which invalidates everything I've said - and I seriously doubt that will happen - there is nothing you can say that is going to fix the ruins of your reputation here.

AnIdiot, they can't. Radiation in more than healthy doses can definitely mutate cells and cause cancer, but there's no strong link between 5G technology and cancer, much less Covid-19. It's just another attempt to spread fear, misinformation, fake news. I'd pay it no mind.