2020-06-22 23:52:17

I dont know, but I personally would take a simple basic language, over Wordpad or Paint. But there are millions of other people who think otherwise, but meh.


@24, that was really helpful, but when i clicked the link I saw a bunch of what I think are opened source projects. All I really hope is this is workable in the text editor

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2020-06-23 00:06:35

@26
I'd stop worrying about this. Pascal is older than GUIs in a 100% literal sense.  It's older than DOS.  The only reason you *might* have a problem is if your school mandates a specific graphical-only distribution that's inaccessible, but it is basically impossible for any programming language that's used in a professional capacity to not have a command line compiler, and also for it not to offer the ability to write a console app.

There are only two offenders I can think of offhand that break this rule, and only one that breaks it completely.  The first is Microsoft-specific technologies like C#, where you still get a command line compiler anyway, but you need their IDE due to lack of documentation and stuff (but you can do basic stuff anyway, and I have gone much further, it's just unpleasant without the IDE).  The one that completely doesn't work is stuff for electronics design: Verilog and VHDL.  This is because part of the process involves doing circuit layout graphically because computers can't do all of that for you, just most of it, but since you can't do anything with those without an oscilloscope and a bunch of other inaccessible hardware, it's not like that's your biggest issue.

There is a reason a lot of us go into programming, and quite bluntly, it's that it's very very hard to fuck up accessibility so badly you can't get around it somehow.  You might be inefficient, you might have to work out undocumented utilities, you might have to reverse engineer a proprietary IDE or go install some custom GCC patch for xyz microcontroller from big enterprise corp that's only used in smart air vents on skyscrapers over 50 stories.  But you usually can.

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2020-06-23 12:11:49

just to clarify something. These questions like is programming language x or y accessible? are completely non-sensical. It's not your fault, since you are a novice,

but what beginners need to realize is that programming languages, at the end of the day, are just plain text you write in a file and then run through a compiler to get an executable or run directly through an interpreter.

So, programming in virtually all programming languages is accessible, since technically all you really need is a text editor (even notepad is technically enough) and a compiler. Compilers are pretty much always command line tools, which is again just text. Almost all IDEs just use a command line compiler under thd hood to compile your program anyway, so if the IDE isn't accessible, you can just use the compiler directly.

if your teacher isn't worthless in CS, then they will help you figure out how to build your program with the command line.

Also, is Pascal barely used today?
yes.
does that matter for a introductory programming class?
f*ck no!
intro to programming languages are for people who are new to programming and programming concepts in Pascal like variables, types, control flow, procedures, I/O, etc. will equally apply in other langauges that have a similar approach to this like Java, C/C++, c#, python, javascript, and others.

doesnt matter too much if the class was in python, pascal, or javascript. as long as the language is reasonably high level enough so you don't have to manage memory yourself like in C, Rust, and these other low level languages, which shouldnt be asked of new programmers.

also just a small side note. whoever said pascal is functional programming language. you apparently don't understand what a functional programming is. A language that doesn't have OO doesn't mean it is functional...

also OO is entirely unnecessary and counterproductive for intro to programming. it adds a lot of unnecessary complexity when you just want to teach about if/else, for loops, variables, functions/procedures, etc. it is useful to learn about eventually , since it is very popular.

also OO is the most overrated thing in software engineering today. many languages don't have OO support on purpose and things get done. once you go into programming language theory you find that OO doesn't really add anyting extra. anything in OO you can express without it, without really sacrificing much.

2020-06-23 18:17:13

Oh my god, Pascal! We had to use this too in school. So, they even do this in Germany. And yes, we had to use Lazarus as our IDE and yes, it's crap with accessibility.

@28 I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree completely. I see big advantages of using a language that is widely used today, even in a beginners class, but I see not one single advantage for using an old language that is barely used anymore. What is wrong in not only learning the basics of variables and loops, but also at the same time learning a language you can use later?

We are pleased, that you made it through the final challenge, where we pretended we were going to murder you. We are throwing a party in honor of your tremendous success. Place the device on the ground, then lay on your stomach with your arms at your sides. A party associate will arrive shortly to collect you for your party. Assume the party submission position or you will miss the party.

2020-06-23 20:43:14

@Targar, maybe we can help each other out. I've managed to get a good ways off in pascal.

If you want a good tutorial, try
This one, which also includes LPI and LPR sources

Or,


And this one. There's also a Pascal game engine there as well

You ain't done nothin' if you ain't been cancelled
_____
I'm working on a playthrough series of the space 4X game Aurora4x. Find it here

2020-06-23 20:50:32

@28  I meant that these basic building blocks are the same in Pascal as they are in basically all the top languages with just some differences in syntax. So he can use this class to learn them and transfering that knowledge to python, Java, C# with basically no issues.

I am not saying there is a advantage to teaching with Pascal instead of let's say python. I just mean that teaching an intro class using Pascal is not a huge disadvantage.

2020-06-25 20:35:54 (edited by targor 2020-06-25 20:36:34)

@30 Sadly, I can't be much help to you. My Pascal class was about five or six years ago and I honestly can't remember a single thing except that we had to use a completely inaccessible GUI builder (Lazarus) and that I could only write the code while somebody else dragged the buttons and stuff to the right position. As I said, it was total bullshit and I never had to use it again.

@31 Sorry, then I misunderstood your earlier post. That makes more sense.

We are pleased, that you made it through the final challenge, where we pretended we were going to murder you. We are throwing a party in honor of your tremendous success. Place the device on the ground, then lay on your stomach with your arms at your sides. A party associate will arrive shortly to collect you for your party. Assume the party submission position or you will miss the party.

2020-06-27 03:19:11 (edited by George_Gaylord 2020-06-27 03:21:33)

OK. So I spent a little time on this, possibly hoping to create a small test project to share around with my friends. I got acustom to the sintax which was pretty much a fusion of BGT and Python sintax. My plan was to get up early in the morning when only my mum is awake. When the house is quiet, and start working on the projec. Tonight however, I managed to get a hold of some pascal LPR code, but let's just say the way I thought coding pascal programmes was like waaaaaaaaay off. Like wanting to go to an eastern Canadian city from New York and some how ending up in Sydney in Austrailia off. It could just be that Lazarus is just a pretty funny know it all that's keen on the idea of keeping all Lazarus projects homogenius, or its just pascal code in general. So, I will now have to take that early morning slot to relearn how to code in Pascal. Needless to say this is going to at least take up 4 hours out of my time. And we're already in July! Soon school will reopen and I won't have much time to screw around!

Learning Pascal I must say it was rather easy to grasp. Reminding me of BGT in some areas, python in aanother and even Purebasic to an extent. It was really interesting, and a bit different from say BGT or those others that I've mentioned, dispite the simularities. Now, hopefully from this I can branch out to something else more advanced like C++ or something else. Let's see where this goes.


I also managed to get a little grasp of the Lazarus IDE. Writing code in it is pretty straight forward, and building scripts is also stragith forward.

You ain't done nothin' if you ain't been cancelled
_____
I'm working on a playthrough series of the space 4X game Aurora4x. Find it here

2020-06-27 06:00:00

Just going to chime in here and say that you shouldn’t touch C++ and expect quick results. Four hours a day will not get you to the level of building audio games for a long, long time. In fact, if that is your goal, stick with python or something else. Chances are it can meet your needs.

2020-06-27 06:11:12

C++ took me 2 years and a failed project to be a minimum level of competent.  It took me an additional 1-2 years beyond that not to need docs frequently.  C++ documentation looks like this. If you can read the partial ordering heading on that page without flinching you're a better programmer than me.  Not me then.  Me now.  And there's a bunch more pages like it behind that I could link.  Also note--this isn't the official specification, this is a site that explains the official specification in terms that us mere mortals might have a chance of understanding.

it's very powerful.  I could make an audiogame with it.  But getting to the point where you can just say "yeah I know, how about I make an audiogame in C++" is the closest thing programmers have to a religious journey or something.  Don't.  Your time is much more valuable unless you're specifically contemplating projects that C++ will help you with, or have a lot of experience as a programmer.

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2020-06-27 13:04:23

What? I didn't mean to learn C in 4 hours, I meant going over Pascal coding. I never truly expect myself to grasp C, especially in a short period of time. Previously I saw someone write up a hello function and it made my bloody head spin for the rest of the day no joke.

You ain't done nothin' if you ain't been cancelled
_____
I'm working on a playthrough series of the space 4X game Aurora4x. Find it here

2020-06-27 14:09:46

Just being picky here, but C and C++ are different. Please keep this in mind.

2020-06-27 18:42:37

@amerikranian, understandable, because I jump on   people's necks because they mix java and java script.

You ain't done nothin' if you ain't been cancelled
_____
I'm working on a playthrough series of the space 4X game Aurora4x. Find it here

2020-06-29 14:20:44

For what it's worth, a universities goal isn't necessarily to make you job ready - it's to teach you the concepts that will make you job ready in the future. Personally, as a professional software engineer myself - I'd have confidence that if you knew Pascal, and could program well in it, that you would be able to learn C, or Python. If you'd used some of the object stuff in there, I'd suspect you could handle C++ or Java with further training too.

Don't get too hung up on the language. If you work in software, you will end up cycling through languages. In the last 5 years, I've professionally worked in C, C++, C#, VB.net, Javascript, Typescript, Python, Powershell, and BASH - and about 4 flavours of SQL. Pascal is a good language to get the concepts right, but true: you likely won't use it in a professional context. Whenever I think I'm getting used to a language or tool, I find myself needing to work in another. Unless you spend your life embedded programming, you'll probably end up being a little bit the same.

2020-06-29 19:20:27 (edited by Ethin 2020-06-29 19:20:43)

@39, embedded programming is fun. smile There's always something new to learn, a different way of doing things. I'm thinking about going into systems development for that reason -- I definitely enjoy it.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2020-06-30 22:59:41

I'm thinking about going into systems development too, it always seems so interesting for me.