2020-02-18 22:27:17

I never really comment on these kinds of posts because it does seem to turn into a two-sided debate. And others do a better job of articulating their thoughts. My belief, however, is that many people try to hold AudioGames to almost the same, if not the same, standards as mainstream video games. I don't think this is a particularly helpful mindset. I'm trying not to suggest that audio games should never potentially reach similar expectations as mainstream games. I am just saying that audio games are not there yet and may not reach that point in the near future unless aided by gamers, end users, and old and new developers alike. Also, people with good game ideas may do well in collaborating with developers in this community to have their ideas implemented. Because some people might be good at programming, but don't do so well at coming up with game ideas. I consider myself to be a decent and experienced software engineer, but I can't come up with a good game idea to save my life! lol
Additionally, my understanding of the developer landscape in this community is that we have developers who are well-versed in different areas of software development. As I have observed, some dabble in low level coding, others in web development coding, and others steer away from audio game development to pursue a career. I'm not saying developers can't learn from other disciplines. It's just that developers sometimes don't care to focus on the tangible product we call a complete Audio Game! Some of us just like to play with different development libraries to test their potential. Oh, and other devs are just jumping in, trying to understand the audio game development ecosystem, which is quite an endeavor. Personally, I think a well-written article, or series of articles, completely outlining and coherently describing audio game development and its best practices would due the community well, especially for new and enthusiastic newcomers!
Anyway, I also don't want to imply that developers should be highly praised just for producing any kind of game. In fact, I would even establish that if a developer releases a game and deploys it for the community to experience, they should expect criticism and even unfortunate harassment from other community members. This isn't ideal, but end users will be users, and if a developer is not willing to face this fact, then maybe they should consider staying away. I know that sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to be, but that has become the reality of our situation here. And perhaps this lack of audio games is a consequence, in whole or in part, of our seemingly collaborative effort to discourage game creators through light or strong harassment. Notice I wrote "seemingly."
This is my outlook on the situation. Take it or leave it. Arguably, at the end of the day, if a game is to be realized, it is up to the developer, as an individual or in a group. At least, for now. I can't wait for no-code game-making solutions to be created. And although I am always up for people being able to express their valid concerns and opinions, I am more inclined to side with, "If you don't like the current state of games, maybe consider seeking out out a developer or learning how to code a complex game" mindset. Don't get me wrong, I am glad people are letting their opinions known. And it is good to have these criticisms and observations about the community. But if someone wants change, who better else to jump start the effort than those who are suggesting said change!
Finally, money is a great motivator! lol

2020-02-18 22:35:23

@Nocturnus I want to make it clear that while I agree with the blogger's sentiment about the quality of games and our voicing an opinion about them, I definitely do not agree with his delivery, tone, or attitude. This is why I didn't even bother commenting on the article. It was just a practice in how to insult people, thrown in with a grammar level that's at mediocracy at best (LOL, mediocracy).

Kai

Spill chuck you spots!

2020-02-18 22:44:14

@JaceK, post 23.  You're misinterpreting what I said.  I'm not saying you shouldn't voice your opinion on a freebee... I'm saying you shouldn't expect something spectacular from it.  In fact, You shouldn't expect anything.  You can walk up to a lemonade stand run by a bunch of kids who are giving it away for whatever reason and dislike it, but you can't expect it to be good if it's free.  You can even talk about it; tell them it needs more sugar, more lemon.  Do it constructively.  Do it in a civil manner.
The problem I see is that there's too much of this deserving mentality where audiogaming is concerned, and I think that personally comes from blind and VI people who feel they are entitled to, well, just about anything and everything.  That has nothing to do with audiogaming; that has to do with the peple whom audiogames are generally marketed to, many of whom have never dealt with the real world, with mainstream culture, with anything outside of their comfort zones and their own personal bubble.
Oh, and in case you think I'm entirely venting against the author?  NO, that's actually not true.  IN the event everyone has forgotten... I actually believe that the author has a pointin at least the title.  I just think his opinions are overwhelming his ability to factualize.  He uses the word medeocracy, as if we've established some sort of social hierarchy in which only the mediocre people are going to prevail.  I used the word mediocrity, which I did my best to describe with as many sources as I could site to showcase that we are stuck in a state between good and bad, and that it's not entirely our fault and how we could learn from it.  So, no, I don't think he's entirely wrong, but I do think his approach is uselessly "ungood," if I may borrow his phrase.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-02-18 22:51:36 (edited by arjan 2020-02-18 22:53:05)

Kind of ironic. The author basically says that new games with different/good sounds but with the same concept are still crap. If his blog post were a game, it would not have an exciting new concept, and definitely no good sounds either because of the atrocious wording and delivery.

Also, @26: I wouldn't worry too much about others being able to articulate better. I actually think that was really well written.

2020-02-18 23:25:30

I think that in conjunction with This post, the meaning of the other post becomes more clear on his stance on the issue.

thanks,
Michael

2020-02-18 23:45:23

@kaigoku, opinions like yours are precisely what I mean by civil, constructive and well put together.  They are valuable, and while I'm not a dev, I'm sure they would agree.  YOu're not just going around saying, this sucks, this is bad, this is boring, this is stupid, this is buffoonery...

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-02-18 23:53:42

I wholeheartedly agree with the blog post. There's definitely a trend of people just taking someone elses concept and recreating it with minor changes when it'd be much better to expand upon those ideas instead. A lot of people are saying that he's bashing simple games and I don't think that's the case. Simple isn't the same as reusing an idea which is what he really had a problem with. Also, there is truth behind the comments about everyone receiving praise for the same overused concepts. I think the reasons for someone making a game matter. If you're simply doing it for the praise, don't do it because chances are that you won't feel the need to be original because like the author said, people will play anything. If, on the other hand, you're doing it because of the praise and you actually want to make something unique, go for it. I often here the excuse that there's no concepts left to use and it's just that, an excuse. Sure, maybe you can't really do too much expanding on mechanics because yes, audio games do have more limits than mainstream ones, but the idea behind the game can make a big difference. I've seen several topics made on this forum by devs looking for ideas and the community has always had plenty but rarely are those ideas turned into something new. I hear the argument that people making free games do not owe the players anything and I agree but at the same time it's sad to see the lack of creativity and laziness when it comes to audio games. With that said, constructive criticism is for sure better than just saying this game sucks and giving no reasons, people need to know what to improve on. Perhaps the author could've worded the post better but I agree with the general sentiment.

2020-02-19 00:19:07

I feel like half the people hear are pretty much proving the point of the article. Especially post 25. There's a way to make a point, which the article did a bad job of, but post 25 is guilty of the same thing. Express your opinions without getting all butthurt, both sides.

2020-02-19 00:57:10

It seems like all this blog post is doing is bashing developers that make their games for other players. If people are just putting up simple games for compliments from other people, I agree with that part of this topic and the blog. The other part of the post, though, seems like it's just saying to the developers,
in my own words: "audio games should no longer exist because they're not as good as video games, boring and they're just the same game with different sounds. No change. For this reason, developers should just contact video game companies and ask them to put accessibility features in their games. Stop releasing games and working on code, just play video games." The topic about Manamon 2 being demonstrated in a program about sighted games says the same thing about audio games, they shouldn't exist. Did I miss some news about blind people and games or something? Hopefully the same thing won't happen with accessibility apps for phones and devices for the blind.

Barren Byron used Nature Overdrive!

2020-02-19 01:23:54

I'll weigh in with my two  cents here..For those who continue to compare audiogames to mainstream ones, I have a question. Why? The audiogame market is a niche market, the developers are usualy single individuals or small teams with limited time and finances, and many of them have to log hours at jobs that will keep them fed and pay the rent. Wht all of those considerations, is it a surprise that the games being produced are not eyewateringly complex marvels? Next question, and this is for the people who like to post destructive, instead of constructive, criticism. My question is  this: how does saying something like, "This game is Crap" or" ?this game is stupid" benefit anyone? Those are personal feelings, not valid facts that can be corrected. For example, I think that most sidescrollers are too simplistic for me and don't fit my style of game play. Does that mean they're not good games for someone else? No. Those people who post overwhelmingly negative reviews hit developers especially hard. Imagine a developer has just released a game. The game's idea is good,  but the game itself needs work. Constructive feedback and offers to help might, just might, get us a game many of us would be happy to play. Destructive criticism, on the other hand, definitely will rob us of the potential to have a good game from that developer. Let's take A Hero's Call as an example. This game was released in what passes for a cloud of multicoloured snowflakes on this forum. Everyone was super excited to have a full featured, fully voice acted RPG. It soon became obvious that, like everything else in this world, this game couldnt satisfy everyone. One person posted a  review emphasizing what he thought was bad about the game. And while the developers may or may not have taken this review to heart, this game hasn't been updated in quite some time, and the developers are silent. Now, I will freely admit that I am biased here; this game is one of my favorites and I think it has great potential; just as an example, a crafting system could be implemented using the elemental gems found in the game, and perhaps this was supposed to come in a later update. But how many games have been becalmed by a negatively and sometimes hostile reception?

When the wandering fire strikes the heart of stone, will you follow? Will you take ... the longest road?
Guy Gavriel Kay

discord: tayo134

2020-02-19 01:24:14

I mean, video game devs do the same thing though.
Freefire, PUBG, Mini Militia, Call of Duty, etc. Developers want to go after a market in which their sure people will enjoy/play. They wanna make sure they enter a field in which their dev costs, surver up keep and all the other costs are justified. So, its not limited to audiogames.
It seems like minorities always like to look at thee majority, and compare it to their own group or comunity, even though they don't know a shit about what's going on in the sited world.
While the post has some truth, it has some false.

You ain't done nothin' if you ain't been cancelled
_____
I'm working on a playthrough series of the space 4X game Aurora4x. Find it here

2020-02-19 01:50:37

@drums61999,
Read that one as well, just more of the same. stupid, dumb, lets talk some shit, I've got my sharpy and it's better than yours and I'm going to use it and I don't really care what you have to say about it.  Fact? If you're going to write, you'd better care what people have to say about it, or else you're just writing to read and hear yourself.  You don't get anywhere by offending even half the community.  Remember what happened when Haily posted that crap about how the community was full of bla bla in her goodbye topic?  Yeah, same thing.  The author seems to think that because they have a blog they can post anything and there's no consequence.  They just don't see it at present, and they probably won't see it for years to come, but I assure you, it's there all the same.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-02-19 02:11:57 (edited by Nocturnus 2020-02-19 02:37:34)

@33, Isn't that interesting?  I mean, the article is bashing games and game devs on the basis that they know how to do exactly that.  I come along and prove that the only thing this article is is just an exceptionally strong worded opinion; nothing more, nothing less.  You take issue with my post because you claim I'm "butthurt."  I promise you I'm not.  I'm amused.  The fact of the matter is that you can't have it both ways.  If you're going to voice an opinion on something because you feel you have the right to voice an opinion on something, you'd better be able to take the heat when that opinion is toasted, roasted, blasted or anything in between.  Besides, the idea here is that someone believes they can write whatever they want and everyone should just listen or look the other way.  Funnily enough, when it comes to audiogaming, this person isn't doing that.  They have the choice to look the other way, but instead they decided to write a snide commentary without any real support.  I'll give you that the basis is therre, but the whole thing is challenged by the emotional bagage that's tied to it and which, I personally believe inffluenced the article.
for the record, I reiterate yet again that I agree with the idea;; the community and its devs need a lift, but this controversial pile of nonsense is not going to do that.
Edited to include the following: Smoke, if you're reading this, or if anyone passes this along to you, and you really are trying to help the community rather than just stirring the pot for the sake of making ripples and trying to cash in on fame and glory or some other such useless short-term fickle feeling or self gratification, if you're honestly doing your best to put forth a foot in the right direction, let me know.  I'll willingly help.  I don't care how or what it takes; I'll willingly colaborate with you on an article, research for you, talk to you, share my experiences with you... Whatever.  No, I'm not saying I'm better than you... I don't believe that to be true.  What I am saying is that going at it rogue the way you're doing it isn't the way and I think you know it.  I'm not attempting to be offensive to push your buttons, make you mad, tell you to buzz off and stop writing or anything of the sort.  I want you to see your writing for what it is, the way @the dwarfer did when he first began posting out here; you would do well to look at how he's changed between his posting in the ultrapower topic and now.
I want to help you, to help the community at large.  I want to advocate alongside you.  I want the market to change for the better, not for the worse.  I want to see greater releases and more titles at the same time.  I want the community to have its cake and eat it too.  No, I'm not looking for credit; I'm not looking for honor and glory.  I'm looking to make a change, even if it's just one word at a time, as I always have, as I always will.  Don't PM me if you're interested; I can't even read them anymore as the link doesn't appear for me.  Reply to me on this topic or contact me by adding nightvitality on skype.  If you prefer some other method of communication I'm open to that as well.  I seriously believe that your opinions are worth listening to even if they are badly tempered at present, but you need to be willing to refine them and you need to be willing to listen to what the other side has to say rather than just writing them off and calling them trash.  I'm putting this out there as an offer so that you realize I'm not your enemy and I don't want to be.  If you accept you'll make me happy, and perhaps we can get something done. smile

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-02-19 02:31:50

Completely agreed with 35! The blind comunity is doing the best they can to make games for people to play. The only reason certain people think these games are boring (in my oppinion) is because there are less blind people than sighted people, and we have jobs or college classes that are more important than games. That, is why it's taking me so long to make just one game. I'm trying to make it good, and I also have a job, plus college and I'm also graduating Perkins this year.

Barren Byron used Nature Overdrive!

2020-02-19 02:41:30

@38

Sorry, I wasn't directing the butthurt thing at you, bad formatting on my end. The point still stands though. I just feel that people, on both sides, are being extremely dramatic about the topic. I get it both sides are passionate, but there's so much salt on both sides lol. For the record, I don't really have an opinion: audio games rarely interest me anymore. I suppose that's why I'm able to watch all of this ensue from an outside perspective.

2020-02-19 03:44:41

@40, I too have lost interest in most audiogames.  I used to think it had to do with my being too old, and maybe it does, but I think, ironically enough, that there's a possibility the underlying issue is, something the article only somewhat hints at, that I feel audiogaming is currently catering to a select few, not to a wider audience, much like mainstream gaming is sort of stuck extending franchises or producing what it thinks will bring in the bucks.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-02-19 04:35:26

I am in complete agreement with Nocturnis on this.
There are some good points here, but the way they're worded obfuscates them, very badly. There's obviously a lot of personal bias invested in the article, which is fine on the surface of things, but it's also very clearly written by someone who couldn't be bothered to get distance.
Frankly, with this poster's history of doing things like this, I'm not surprised. That said, I accept, as I did even years back, that there are some good things being pointed out here, so if I can help in some way, I'm game.

It is a lot harder to plan a good game than some people realized. Do you folks remember when I was talking about building an RPG? Well, that never got off the ground. I'd love it if id did, but it requires a crapton of effort that I wasn't as prepared for as I thought I was.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-02-19 04:53:11

@Jayde that takes a lot of guts to admit to, but I know where you're coming from.  I also had a project I seriously wanted to get going to rival every space and futuristic game currently available, thought I had a good team assembled, but between school, home life and other things we just never could colaborate properly, and I never had money to give them which I seriously wanted to do, so while I wrote out the story, showed them a timeline I had in mind as to how the whole thing could lead up to future events that I had carefully researched, had plotlines and ideas for them to code and possible event senarios for the public launch, I think the project was honestly sunk before it ever really got a chance to get off the ground.  I don't blame them; coding is a tough business regardless who's doing it and how passionate you are.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-02-19 05:05:05

BTW, completely OT but just a curious question if I may, when did Xvordan get a name change?  I don't see any record of that in the topic concerning this matter and honestly thought there were 2 Kai's running around.  Confusing me isn't funny, you know. :d

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2020-02-19 06:23:50

I'm assuming that he changed his name to distinguish him from Soren, when he began posting more frequently on the forum.
But honestly, while I agree to some extenar that there are "grovelling at the feet of developers" (I see this much more frequently on the AppleVis forum over this  one), and while I  do feel like there tends to be a lack of innovation (and some games can become boring), I can understand why we should be appreciative of what we have. We didn't have this many games 10 years ago, but I do agree with many of the points that the blog brought up. There does seem to be quite a lot of "you get what you get, and I'm perfectly content with this." That's great and all, but sometimes there are blatant flaws that could (and should) be ironed out, that are overlooked to continue the perceived "ego stroking". (could be wrong, and I'm not trying to accuse anyone of ego-stroking just for ego-stroking). However, for example, while ersonally didn't take away from it the "make games more complex" argument, I took away more of a "make them more engaging and worth the price." I do agree though that the words were a bit harsh. Even if there are things that you disagree with, don't call someone a "buffoon" just for the sake of having being a buffoon.

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

2020-02-19 06:38:50

Also, sorry about the double post, but I'd like to claricy to the *vast* majority of people what the word "obfuscate" means. From a cursory search on Google:
verb. render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible.
There's my good deed for the day. Have fun!

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

2020-02-19 07:09:14

lol See, I used that word without even thinking twice.

So, something I wanted to add to the stew a little bit.

There are people out there who get pissed if you slam a game, even if you do it constructively. This isn't helpful.
But most of the time when folks get roasted for slamming a game, it's because they were out to really tear it down. People took issue with my criticism of Manamon 2 because, while I was constructive - or tried to be - I was also relentless. It's true. I was. I am.  Whether that's too far, I don't know. I did try and recognize its good points - it's far better than its prequel, for instance - but still, it's an impression I gave. I think that part of this is that the writer of the blog has the idea that he should basically be able to say what he wants, and that it's everyone else's responsibility to wade through the poorly worded mess and figure out what he's truly trying to say. Here's the problem though: written media, especially, is a minefield. When you say things, it is partially up to your audience to understand you, or to ask if they're unclear. But it's also up to you - and this means everyone, not just the dude who wrote the article - to make your communication as clear as you reasonably can. Use a weird word occasionally? Fine. Get technical from time to time? Fine. But if your criticism is 75% rant and 25% constructive feedback, it's hard to see the latter because it's slathered all over with the former. And that's partially your fault.
The short version is that this is coming from a source that just sort of hurls stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I don't believe this makes him a particularly credible source, as this tendency also makes him the type to take any slamming of those purporting to speak their mind as some sort of limitation on free speech. Uh, no, that's not how this works. If you're like, "Nuh bruh this game is bad cuz u cant shoot on diagnels and there are no boms and so this game sucks cuz all u do is run n shoot so plz make it more like TK where you could atleast jump kthx"...that's not constructive, and it's not a useful bit of feedback. When I see a player hammer a game or a dev this way, I usually jump in, because even if the game is awful - and sometimes it is - being constructive is better than just attacking. And if all you want to do is have your say all the way to the end, then yes, sometimes you're gonna say stuff you shouldn't and then get called out for it.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2020-02-19 07:17:10

Very true. That's why I didn't jump in to voice my criticisms for a certain game that will not be mentioned here. i really couldn't understand why people liked it, and I wanted the developer to know that it was not very good from what I thought about it. However, I didn't post my critcisms here, as I felt like I couldn't be construcjive in any way.

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

2020-02-19 17:05:19

I am honestly not sure. I agree with most of it, though.

2020-02-19 19:02:12 (edited by Nocturnus 2020-02-19 19:32:10)

A few things:
1.  The topic's primary link and point of focus is tagged with the words "echo chamber." There's something seriously telling about that.  I repeat, I repeat, I repeat, I repeat, I listen to my repetition.
2.  Other posts have been tagged under drama, Rant, rage, outrage... I said above that all of this writing was badly tempered and think I've just proved my point.
3.  The author cannot write.  "Now I have to say I have never listened to this podcast, and I’ll never listen to it again,not because of what was said, but because tech podcasts aren’t my cup of tea."  You cannot say you've never listened to a podcast, then finish off that thought with, :and I'll never listen to it again.  Saying you'll not listen to it again implys you've heard it at least once.  Either you heard it once in which case you cannot say you never listened to it, or you never have listened to it, in which case there would be no again as again would suggest at least a second time.
4.  I'll say again, delivering opinions isn't the probem; delivering opinions as if they're facts is.  The author is quick to include a tiny section in his writing that says something along the lines of, "This is simply my opinion and does not reflect anything anyone else on this blog might think and this might offend you."  Interestingly enough, that is a statement under a heading that clearly states, and I quote, "It really is not ok!"  He may also contradict himself later on by saying his opinions are not his actual feelings.  I find that highly interesting, as I was under the impression that an opinion was based off of personal judgment, IE, how you feel about something and or what you believe about it?  Writing things like, and I quote, "and now I’m very annoyed and quite pissed off..." I would imagine, does showcase your feelings at least a little?  I might be wrong on that assertion, but I'd like to be proven wrong if that is the case.
Honestly, I still fail to see why any of this stuff is being taken seriously.  Anyone can make a blog; not anyone can put their thoughts together consistently and coherently.  My advice to the author still remains the same, and I think Jayde took it a step further.  Learn to distance yourself from your emotions when writing and start seriously considering what it is you're seriously, seriously trying to say!  Seriously!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.