2018-05-04 19:47:36

@dark I agree with you, Dark. I find quick flings are a bit meaningless and empty.. I've used tinder in the past but just for fun and a quick laugh now and them.
It is a bit difficult to really find something or someone who's really looking for something meaningful. Most people are just not into long-term relationships. Why would they, when most of our cuture encourages divercity instead of steadiness?

2018-05-05 12:47:33

I wouldn't say its a one way thing or something inherent about communities, but there does seem to be a lot of confusion these days on how the dating mechanics and marriage actually work with all of the old "man asks girl out, man pays for dinner" stuff hanging over from the past, and yet contrasted with a culture not of "should we kiss on the first date", but "should we go to bed on the first date"

This contrast is pretty bad in general, especially for men who are outside the usual idea of what men should be, indeed its significant  men are far more common on dating sites etc than women, since generally its far easier for women to be asked and have choice even if those women have a disability, one study I saw stated that in five oout of six marriages where one partner was disabled, it was the woman who had the disability.

In general it seems the only solution to this is pretty much what I did, namely let all the conventions go to hell, make friends with someone and see where that friendship goes and be horrendously, inhumanly lucky enough to meet the right person.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-05-07 00:27:37

Hmm.
  I agree with all these people saying you should be yourself. Also, I can't get the appeal of these types of relationships mentioned in the past couple posts - where you basically hook up with someone, and it basically has no meaning.
  I've been described as somewhat dorky, as well as having a smart personality. While I don't flaunt these things (in fact when people talk good about me at school where I don't know many people I find myself getting quite squirmy), I don't hide them either. I don't pretend to be cool when talking to people, I don't pretend to know or like something that a lot of people know or like because it will make me fit in, and because of this I think many people in the mainstream have trouble talking to me sometimes - though this goes both ways. Like I said, I don't try to rebel against society and be all different like because it will make me cool in a different wway or whatever, not at all. I am however a senior in highschool who loves cats, computers, weather, and writing, and is not ashamed to talk about the things that make those so interesting to me.
  Also Dark, I don't get the "queues" either, which is why I often feel a lot of anxiety when I like someone, since I usually wonder if I should... tell them? I don't know...
  Finally, the topic of gender roles in dating. I really, really despise these, even though I find myself performing some of them... naturally I suppose. I think the idea that men should do the asking, men should do the paying, men should do the protecting, men should always hold the doors and pull out the chair, etc, is completely outdated, and absurd. It comes from a time when men and women were not considered equal in the eyes of society - and isn't that something we're moving to reverse? I just don't feel like it's equal if those standards are set in place - and I firmly believe those supporting women's equality and who support that mentality are at least somewhat hypocritical.
One other thing that rather troubled me was this. In my last relationship, my girl and I decided to do something for my birthday, because it was basically all I really wanted at the time. It was the second time we'd been in a relationship; the first time we'd gone out this time. We kissed, but it wasn't anything super like, aggressive or anything. No big deal. I don't think her parents liked it too much though, but they didn't really say anything.

  We went to a camp that summer together though, and I remember her once mentioning to me that her mom asked if I had tried to kiss her - not if we'd kissed, or if she had tried to kiss me, but if I had tried to kiss her. See, that really bothered me, because it seemed that because I was the male, I was assumed to be the aggressor or the one making the moves, etc.

And then... and this is a totally different girl. Basically her, I, and a couple friends were going to see a movie. I was only going with her because my friend was going with his girlfriend, and asked if both of us wanted to come along. That girl straight up asked me if I was going to pay for her movie ticket, because it was a double date. ----Um yeah, that happened.

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2018-05-07 03:41:39

I agree there Dwarfer, actually in some ways school is a bad place to look for relationships generally. I think in an earlier topic someone compared school to prison since its the only time in your life your forced to spend a significant time with a cross section of people who you wouldn't normally have anything in common with, which makes popularity and cliqueiness keys to survival.

This is one reason I'd suggest people go to university, since your far more likely there to meet people who are actually friends of both genders.

I'll also say that I did notice a larger Gender bias in the states, or at least in Pennsylvania where it was sort of expected that most women talked about the doings of other women and got involved in their local churches, while most men would remain pretty silent unless they got into conversation about some of the specific manly things such as sport, hunting or beer. I don't imagine this makes gender relations much harder since hell what do you have to talk to the other person about when you have few to no interests in common? Indeed I wonder if there is some corolary between formality of dating practices and excessive use of gender roles.

fortunately I can tell you in my time I've met girls who are interested in all of the things you mention (my lady herself is quite into cats and books, though less of a computer fan), so its not impossible provided you make female friends and avoid the conventions.


As to kisses, an interesting fact is that hollywood up until the 1950's actually portrayed the idea  forcible kissing, that is where the man grabs the girl and pretty much just pushes his mouth on hers irrispective of  the idea that she's secretly supposed to be enjoying it.
needless to say this is pretty invasive and rather gros if you think about it, and it always annoys me when women are seen doing this in films, tv etc (there is a particularly horrible scene when the 14 year old Selma forceably kisses the ten year old homer in a flashback in a zombie simpsons episode that is just plane disgusting! particularly because its played for laughs).

Its even got its own page on Tv tropes

I can say one piece of advice about kissing, the hole spontaneous hollywood kiss thing is really! not easy to do in real life, or at least it wasn't with my lady and I.
Our first kiss was pretty orchestrated ie in a "I'd like to kiss you" moment, actually doubly amusing given that I brought the subject up and couldn't get the words out and she completed the sentence.

Our second kiss was definitely not! orchestrated though as I was literally holding her in my arms at the time it was a fairly tense situation, ----- actually it was a situation we both had to stop before it went too far too fast, which it rather threatened to do.

We did! have a full blown hollywood kiss at our wedding, indeed the priest remarked that as we'd been singing earlier we'd gone from broadway to hollywood.

These days we kiss on a regular basis, very frequently, but obviously we're also married and as I said, probably one of those couples that everyone either hates, rolls eyes or smiles fondly at big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-05-07 03:55:48

I notice I am the only one who seems to have observed the absence of the "he initiates everything" norms. I think I've been made aware of more cases that were the other way around, outside of discussions like these (which have only really started showing up where I frequent in the past 5 or so years, IIRC). I suppose if you roll enough, you'll eventually get 3 n20s in a row?

看過來!
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2018-05-07 04:27:13

The gender stereotype rolls can be shown in pretty much anything you read on dating in a formal sense at all, look at Dwarfer's above comments as an example, not to mention the way everything from dating sites, to single's bars to club culture generally tends to work.

i will say that generally more intelligent women tend to ditch these sorts of things and take the initiative more often, which means if you tend to know intelligent women more frequently you'll tend to see the stereotypes less, though that doesn't mean they don't exist. For example I know one girl who actually has quite literally a hit counter and ticks off how many men she's slept with, who just walks into bars and waits until an appealing man asks her, then spends a few nights and when she gets board moves on (she's not a very nice girl).
The sister of a friend of mine also has a completely converse method of finding relationships, whereby she goes to a night club, dances around, takes a man home (since she can almost certainly guarantee to get one), and then the next day decides whether he's actually interesting or not.

Of course neither of these women are particularly stable, and neither are happily married, though equally neither has had trouble finding interest  which proves society is depressing.

its not just psychos who go in for stereotypes though, I know one girl who met her now husband in a bar, and I will say My lady fell badly for the "being asked" business, not so much because she's heavily taken up with that idea, as that she's intrinsically very gentle and so unlikely to put herself forward with things, which also led to her getting mixed up in a couple of less than healthy relationships, one reason why our sort of mutual asking each other was so surprising for both of us.
,

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-05-07 05:20:41

This is a very interesting topic. I agree with the become friends first mentality. I've come to realize that's what I really want from people. I want a genuine connection with someone where I can talk about things in depth and for an extended period of time.

I'm currently 20 (almost 21) years old, so I'm not concerned over a long-term relationship just yet. The only thing that concerns me is my personality. I prefer to do things by myself such as messing with computers, reading, sitting outside when the weather is perfect, and thinking about everything. I don't need to constantly go places because I can entertain myself. Having said that, I don't mind the occasional outing to  a restaurant with an individual or small group or going to a movie and discussing it afterwords. This is my biggest problem. If I don't interact with many people, I won't find anyone. It's a vicious cycle.

I've considered the Internet dating scene, but it just seems really sketchy. I have no idea that the person on the other end is who they say they are.

Maybe I'm just worrying too much. After all, I haven't found a job quite yet as I'm working on getting some certifications. I'm certain things will change once I get out into the job market and start interacting with more people. Keep the discussion going! I love it!

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2018-05-07 05:36:08

Yeah Dark, when we kissed, it was 99% of the time a mutual thing. The first one in fact was something she proposed; I wasn't in fact going to say anything until I knew she wanted to. big_smile

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2018-05-07 15:12:36

Chris unfortunately getting a job can be interesting in and of itself and of course you have no guarantee even if you get one to meet anyone at all, indeed in the business world that is less likely.

Your best plan for meeting someone is some sort of group for mutual interest, one reason why being at university is helpful to a lot of people.
Internet dating I'd really not advise at all, mostly you'll run into organisations that take your money and give you nothing in return, plus they're playgrounds for female predators of all kinds or women who use them to get free meals.

ironically what you talk about in terms of being relaxed, going to the odd restaurant or film etc is pretty much what my lady and I do, though with the bit of singing and stage performing in there when we can manage it, however the way we met was comparatively unusual as I said in post 261. Neither of us was "looking" for a relationship at all much less finding the person we're going to spend the rest of our lives with, it just sort of happened that way. The problem of course is that it doesn't just sort of happen on its own, especially if your visually impaired and missing all   those mysterious signals people talk about, much less unable to go in for all the standard rituals which sadly still make up a large part of what goes on.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-05-07 16:27:56

I miss Arcades; anyone else miss Arcades?
I mean, sure, they were hard to hear because of all the noise, and I couldn't get as close to the screen as I needed to for the vision I had until right before I lost it, but still!

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2018-05-10 17:09:49

yeah Arcades were fun, though I doubt you'd meet anyone there as bonding over streetfighter was unlikely big_smile.
Roleplaying on the other hand, indeed a friend of mine described role playing as the thinking person's dating service although she was primarily talking about Larp aka live action role play which is necessarily less accessible in and of itself.

Actually music groups are always good, this is one reason most of my friends are female since if you have any interest in the performing arts at all %75 of the  other people involved will be female, albeit  this got me a lot of  female friends as I said above I'm still not sure any of them were ever interested in being more than friends owing to usual dating practices and those bloody invisible signals.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-12-25 19:49:52

@cmerry, there is a lot of stuff here, some of which I'm probably not the best person to comment on anyway.
firstly, your correct that adult relationships don't bother about age gaps, my lady is 9 years older than I am, however, the younger one party is, the more the age gap matters.

think of it this way, a five year old and 8 year old kid are in almost different worlds. a 10 and 13 year old might be friends, but there will always be a clear big brother/big sister, where as someone who is 19 and someone who is 22 are far more on an equal footing.

16 is still at the younger age in relationship terms, especially since there is so much paranoia these days about child abuse, ---- admittedly less when  younger party is male, but it's still there.

So, there is a lot of complexity for her at the moment, even more if as you said, she saw you when you were twelve and you behaved in a far less mature fashion.

I'll also say from personal experience, you describe this as "You really feeling something" and as "more than a crush", however bare in mind that unless you actually get an indication of what the other person is feeling, then things will always be of the one sided admiration sort, however deep that admiration is, and unless you discuss matters directly, in person, in real time, it's hard to get that via text message only.

I exchanged casual emails with my lady for a good six months and never realised there was chemistry or attraction until we met in person.
Even after that point, we did everything via long distance phone, and it took  three months of phone calls as friends.

I'm not denying your feelings for her, what I'm questioning is whether those  feelings are one way or indicate an actual connection.

I'm also wondering, you mention "not wanting to seem desperate" however bare in mind women are people too and despite all the "man must ask first" crap, can be equally confused about things, my lady said she had suspicions about the way I felt, but things which to me seemed very blatant, she did not pick up at all, and with all of the business with the age gap etc, it's possible this lady is in an equally confused position and is avoiding the issue, or worse, has found something you said creepy because (as we all know from forum drama), text is not voice, and misunderstandings are possible.

You've done the first thing I'd suggest, just sending a casual message, but depending upon your past history this might or might not result in anything.

if this lady chooses to get back in touch, just chat and be friends for a while (as I've said several times in this topic), then at some point, see if you can have a real time conversation over skype etc, and see what happens.

Lastly, I'm going to say something infuriating. Relax! your sixteen, and everyone at sixteen, women included, has a deep attraction to someone else which doesn't work out.
In my case I was seventeen, and there was far more baggage involved.

You have time, just relax, meet girls casually and treat them as friends,  try to associate with girls with brains, don't be a bastard and things will work out eventually.

If they worked out for me, they'll work out for everyone, and most people don't have my hangups.

sorry, I know it's trite, but having lived it, I can say it's actually true.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-12-25 20:24:03

Ditto.

You're sixteen. You may be feeling new things, wonderful things, but other people have lived versions of it before, and will again. Nobody at the age of sixteen knows a ton about love in a long-term sense. You're still developing. That's totally okay. Just take it easy, and try to understand that what you're feeling is not, in fact, going to wreck your world if it amounts to nothing in the end. If it all goes belly-up and you get nothing out of this, not even a friend, things will get better.

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2019-12-25 23:06:02 (edited by haily_merry 2019-12-25 23:13:03)

Hi.
I’ve had some time to think since last night, and for now I’ve deleted my post. I don’t want it to incriminate me any more than it already might have done. I appreciate the advice though. I came into this hole thing when I was not in a very good place mentally and I wasn’t being entirely rational. My hole life I’ve kind of felt like I’m in the wrong body, and following recent discussions with family we may finally be getting something done about that. My fears of being disowned, of ending up on the streets because of my inability to accept my gender might have caused me, at least in part, to do more than a few stupid things in an effort to make myself feel male. I’ll say more when I know more, but I’m really hoping now my depression may soon come to an end.
FYI, this does not mean my feelings for her weren’t, aren’t genuine, just that I might have over stepped things in my head, and possibly shot myself in the foot in the process.

2019-12-27 00:19:00 (edited by turtlepower17 2019-12-27 00:32:01)

I didn't see the original post, but I'll briefly add my two cents about what Dark and Jade were saying. The funny thing is, people say that heartbreak gets easier to deal with as you get older. While it's true that, as a teenager, you don't have the life experience to really know what to do with all of those new feelings, and it can be very hard to get a handle on them, I'd argue that you bounce back quicker than you do when you're older. When you're a teen, learning what exactly to do with all those inconvenient crushes, awkward meetings, and yes, those first devastating breakups is...I don't want to say easier, but I think most people are more bold in the ways that they deal with their explorations. Because of the newness of it, the urgency of all those thoughts and hormones and desires, you feel you have to have those experiences whether you want to or not. I know there are younger people who discover that they're asexual or aromantic at that age, but that's a whole other complication that I can't really speak to. What I'm getting at is, it's tough to build that foundation, but it's even tougher once you get a little older and look back on just how easily you actually did get through those experiences as compared to how you deal with them now. It took me years to get over my previous relationship. There was a lot of self-hatred and self-destruction along the way, as well as trying desperately to keep that person in my life, even as a friend, though it was clear to me and everyone who knew me and the situation that this person was using me and taking full advantage of my vulnerable state. During that time, I would often look back and wonder what my younger self would have done, and the conclusion that I drew over and over was that I would have gotten through it a hell of a lot faster. No matter how much in love you think you are, or actually grow to be at that age, time is still pretty relative. You may think of the future, but in more abstract terms than when you get a bit older and realize, "holy crap, this is the rest of my life." So, while I do have far more empathy than a lot of adults seem to, and would never dream of telling someone who was going through this for the first time that it's all in their head, or to get over it because there are other fish in the sea, it still blows my mind to this day to think about what a dark place I was in for the better part of 3 years, the lengths I went to blame myself for someone else's shitty behavior, the physical and emotional damage I ended up doing to myself as a result, and so many other nuances that I neither have the time nor inclination to go into at the moment. I never would have reacted in that way when I was younger, because, as much as the experiences that I had sucked, I didn't feel that I was working against time, plus, I truly believed that I could do better than the situations I found myself in in those days.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2019-12-27 01:13:29

Have to generally agree with tirtlepower. I was one of those who started having sexual feelings towards people from a young age, and back then if I was rejected or whatever I tended to get over it fairly quickly. My last real relationship was probably one of the most meaningful I've ever had with anyone, but it ended up ending on a not so good note once it became apparent to this person I was trans, or at least bisexual, before I even truly realised what those feelings meant myself, in around the middle of 2017. I'd been with this girl since 2014, and as young and immature as I was then, it still meant a lot to me at the time and it ending the way it did fucked me up pretty bad. I think it was from that point onward I started to desperately cling on to my maskulinity, knowing full well deep down that it was a ly, and that resulted in a lot of my already existing depression being intensified, and me going to greater and greater lengths to accept myself for who I was. Sadly, my earlier post was just another example of that. I still think if the person mentioned in my first post were to get back in contact with me I would still try to pursue that relationship, even though this person is as strate as it gets and it there for probably wouldn't go anywhere. Sometimes I wonder if part of the reason I felt such a strong connection was because she's kind of everything I wanted to be at that point. I'm not sure, but at least I've gotten a lot off my chest, and it's been a little easier for me now. Still have to decide on a new name and whatnot, plus put things through college so everyone's on the same page, but soon I'll be living the life I've wanted deep down since I was about 12, and which I never really thought would be possible.