2019-11-29 20:02:34 (edited by Nocturnus 2019-12-01 18:01:23)

UPDATE

Owing to the unfortunate response we received, it is with great regret that we must announce that this lottery will not be going forward.  This topic and the posts below are being kept in their entirety, partly owing to said response.  For further information, please read post 19.

Lottery that never was.

Credits!  Credits!  Thousands of credits!  You may be able to win them all!  For less than the price of a 20 ounce soda in the United States you can win thousands of credits!  One dollar?  One ticket to win one of seven prizes available!  You will also be contributing to a generous cause in the process, as you will soon see, should you continue reading!
By default, the pot stands at 10000 credits with a chance of rising based on entry and contribution.  The first prize winner will automatically win half of that, entirely for themselves to do with as they see fit!  This really is a steal, as normally 5000 credits will cost you $50 US.  The second prize winner will receive 2500, with prize winners 3 through 7 receiving 500 a piece.  We put in a hundred dollars to start the pot, and even if only one ticket is purchased, that person will still receive 10000 credits!
Need us to sweeten the deal?  NO problem!  For every 5 tickets you purchase we'll throw in an additional ticket, free of charge, yet another chance for you to become one of the lucky seven!  Five dollars = 6 tickets, 10 dollars = 12 tickets.  Want to purchase 25 dollars worth of tickets?  We'll throw in an extra 5 with your already garunteed extra 5 for a total of 35 tickets!  Fifty dollars, you might have asked?  We have you covered!  Spending 50 dollars will grant you 75 tickets!  A hundred dollars?  If you must, we will deal with that as well by giving you 150 tickets, 150 chances to win it big!  Anything above 100 dollars can be discussed via mudmail if it generates interest!
As previously stated, the pot increases with every purchase above 100 dollars, which is our part in the pool.  For every dollar contributed to the pot above 100, half will be added to the pool, while the other half will be used to fund a special cause.  Feel free to visit this page  for more details on what this is.  In the spirit of the holiday season, this allows you to not only benefit yourself and 6 other players on the game, but will help further a cause in which your generous contribution will be sincerely and greatly appreciated.
Why is this cause important to us?  Many guidedog schools in the United states are employing practices we cannot agree with ranging from releasing guides who have not entirely completed their training, to rereleasing dogs that have been previously returned by people for failing in areas that could pose serious risks to the dog and the owner.  We actually believe that these schools are not stringent enough when selecting guide candidates, which results in more dogs being taken away from newly graduated students and the student having to return to the school for a replacement, in some cases not even receiving that option.
Getting back to the credit lottery, however, we are also aware that there may be people who play Alter Aeon who are unable to participate directly for whatever reason, such as credit cards and or Paypal and other such payment services not being accessible to them for whatever reason.  If you have friends in this field or people who have helped you out in the past in some way you were thankful for, this would be an opportune moment to give them something they might like.  A dollar you contribute could met them thousands of credits to spend on furthering their chars!
If you are interested in this lottery, please feel free to headover to paypal.me/jessm1228 to purchase your tickets.  Please add a note when purchasing that includes your character's name.  Once you have purchased, please send a mudmail to Mori with your email address and how much money you sent.  We will then mudmail you back with your ticket numbers.  Prize winners will be drawn and announced on December 31st, 2019.  Ticket purchases must be completed by December 30th at 11:59 PM eastern.  No purchase after that time will be honored.
Need help understanding something?  Please mudmail Mori or Nocturnus for further information.  We sincerely hope you join!  We believe this could be a fun experience for everyone who chooses to be involved, which is also part of the reason we decided to try and pull this off with the year coming to a close.  Happy holiday season to you and yours, and we hope to hear from you soon!
P.S.  I'm not checking private messages on here, as they are currently not showing up as a link on my end for some reason.  If you must get in contact with me for whatever reason, mudmail Nocturnus.  Also, feel free to spread the word, as the bigger the lottery is, the greater the prizes will be.  We happen to know from experience that this kind of thing can take off at a moment's notice, given what happened with this one  Happy hunting!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-11-29 20:50:15

Hi
sounds great but I assume you guys will use some sort of publicly viewable and transparent software to draw lottery winners? This could easily be exploited to, say, have pre chosen winners selected from a group of your friends etc. Not saying you will, just that the possibility exists...

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2019-11-29 20:52:09

Given Nocturnis's reputation, I would say that transparency, or fairness at the very, very least, should go without saying. To my knowledge, Nocturnis has never screwed anyone over, so this sort of flagging is an awfully unfortunate first response.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-11-29 21:22:19

Yap, agreed Ogomez92

2019-11-29 22:48:18

NO worries, Jayde.  I actually already received that kind of response on AA itself.  We're trying to reach out to Dentin in hopes that he too will give us a bit of support.  We're willing to be held accountable by whatever means necessary.  This kind of reaction is quite understandable, but I do appreciate the vote of confidence in post 3 and thank you kindly for it.  Honestly, I suspect others will come forth and vouch for me within time.  Thumbs up as a way of saying thank you, too!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-11-29 23:11:48

You might want to read the rules regarding lotteries - credits aren't allowed to be exchanged, only gold. Good idea though, lotteries are popular when they pop up.

2019-11-29 23:22:25 (edited by Nocturnus 2019-11-29 23:24:31)

@Loxias:
1.  Morpheus has already stated it's alright, which conflicts with your statement.
2.  The mechanics for exchanging/gifting/giving credits from one char to another actually exist.  Why code something into a game that you consider against the rules?
If you would do us a favor and refer us to the rules section you are concerned with, I would certainly be willing to remain open to your warning and revise the prizes and or lottery or whatever as necessary.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-11-29 23:43:40 (edited by Loxias 2019-11-29 23:44:26)

It's rule 3.12. It says lotteries can only involve Gold. Although, maybe that only applies to bot lotteries. I wouldn't think the rules would be different, but it's possible. Morpheus would probably know better than me, but he's also not Dentin. I would check with Dentin directly on this.

Not trying to be a stickler BTW, just wouldn't want to see you get in trouble.

2019-11-30 00:14:38

Understood, and thank you for the concern.  For what it's worth we will not be using a bot of any kind; everything will be done manually.  I"m not sure if that'll make a difference, so as I said previously we have in fact tried getting ahold of Dentin, though I dare say he might be busy with holiday related stuff, so we're patiently waiting.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-11-30 00:30:15 (edited by Nocturnus 2019-11-30 00:31:16)

Update: Morpheus has emphatically stated that 3.12 does not apply to us for two reason:
1.  We're not using in game currency to sell or otherwise generate credits.
2.  NO bot will be used; all is being done manually.
He does agree however, and was first to suggest on gosip that we should get in contact with Dentin if at all possible for his support, as it would be less likely to be seen as a scam.  This, we are still trying to do at present, since, as stated above, we're willing to be held accountable at any reasonable cost.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-11-30 04:31:39

Aha, yeah I guess since the actual tickets are being bought off game, it isn't the same as it being handled with in-game currency. There's still a chance Dentin may not approve, but there's a limit to what he can do with anything outside of the server. Still, can't hurt to run it by him.

2019-11-30 07:31:52 (edited by ogomez92 2019-11-30 07:33:42)

Jayde wrote:

Given Nocturnis's reputation, I would say that transparency, or fairness at the very, very least, should go without saying. To my knowledge, Nocturnis has never screwed anyone over, so this sort of flagging is an awfully unfortunate first response.

I don't know Nocturnus, so my first reaction is to ask. Now, if everyone vouches for him, I have no problems. I was just merely stating the fact that this could easily be exploited. But nice to see it's being taken seriously.

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2019-11-30 18:58:09

See, that doesn't work though. Haven't you ever heard of benefit of the doubt?
Nobody's making you spend money on this. Don't if you're not comfy with it, that's totally your jam and no one should shame you for abstaining if that's the call you go with. I sure as hell wouldn't.
But what you did, saying that you hope it's aboveboard because some might suspect foul play/favouritism or whatever, is a lot like walking into a restaurant and saying, loudly enough to hear, "I hope this place cooks their chicken properly and doesn't make people sick". Yes, that's a perfectly reasonable concern to have; nobody wants to get sick from undercooked chicken. But feeling the need to voice that concern in a public forum like this goes back to that bad-faith thing I keep nipping at. Why cast even a little indirect shade on someone when you have absolutely nothing but a blank slate? Why not just assume that if Nocturnis is going through all this legwork, and has generally appeared to be an upstanding member of at least one community (ours) before now, he's extremely unlikely to screw anyone over? If you aren't going to walk into a store openly talking about your worry of potentially  shoddy merchandise, and you aren't going to waltz into a restaurant and vocalize your baseless concern that their food might not be cooked properly, then for heaven's sake don't walk into a topic only to essentially say "You guys are using protection, right? I mean I'm not saying you'd screw anyone over, but hey, you might, and we don't want anyone else to say so". Because guess what? In a very real sense, you...pretty much just said so.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-11-30 19:21:04 (edited by Nocturnus 2019-11-30 19:22:09)

See?  That, right there, is why I thought Jayde was honestly the best step forward for the forum moderation panel.  I've seen him be hard headed, but I've also seen him be exceptionally diplomatic.  When he can get both aspects together?  He's not quite golden, but pretty close!  I had my reservations because he kind of sort of somewhat invited himself to the panel and was let in so quickly, but I held off on them as much as possible and, besides, it wasn't exactly his fault he was accepted in so quickly or that protocol was sort of bucked in his case.  The fact is?  It turned out for the better!
And for the record?  This is the kind of person I want to be held accountable by!  Why?  Because even though we may have differing opinions I can trust him enough to not step on my toes if he doesn't have to.  I also believe he'll listen to me if I have some sort of concern.  What's my basis for that statement?  While I've only exchanged a few emails with him off forum, I found him rather receptive to anything I voiced.  IN the heat of the moment, he may seem immovable and unrelenting, probably because in the heat of the moment he feels like he has to.  Give him time to cool down though, if you can, and he thinks things through.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-11-30 19:39:55

Always, every time. I am often firm on first glance because I feel that I have to be. I'm sometimes dead wrong about that, which is why it was such a shit-show when I first showed up.
Anyway, definitely don't want to derail the thread. Nocturnis, I am financially pretty tight up against it right now or I'd try and send a few bucks. The situation outlined in the page you linked to is unfortunate and I wish you the very best of luck.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-11-30 20:18:12

Meh, I'll probably aim to make a direct donation to the fund rather than having half of it go to a lottery for a game I don't really care for anymore. Will look into this once December rolls around next week.

  But eesh, I've known friends that have had that issue happen. Especially when the dog itself is not well trained When one spends time with their guide dog and has it taken away, it's really traumatic for both the graduate and the guide dog. One of the major downsides of a bonding period, but that's necessary for building trust and examining habits between dog and graduate.

The answer to your question is forum.audiogames.net/search

2019-11-30 21:22:09

@16, thank you for the understanding.  Our idea was to give something in return, or to try to, so people didn't feel like we weren't doing our part and just hoping someone else was going to put forth the bill.  We've already managed to pay out about 2000 dollars, but it is tough to do when you're not exactly made of money.  We were also aware that something like this could go completely bust.  Ten tickets purchased would come out to 10 dollars, meaning that if only those 10 tickets were purchased we would lose all the way around, but that's a risk we were willing to take all the same in the spirit of Christmas and generosity and all that.
I hold to what we wrote above, even if only one ticket were purchased, someone would walk off with 10000 credits.  We just thought it might be fun to start something like this and might work out for more people than just ourselves.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-12-01 17:19:57

I'm looking into this and trying to see what makes sense from the game/server standpoint.  Unfortunately, things involving RL cash potentially open AA up to various legal and money laundering concerns.  We'll try to put down some updates to the rules to cover this and a few other cases in the next few days.

My gut instinct for now is that the AA admin and staff should not directly participate, and I would prefer that it not be advertised on the AA public boards and admin owned channels.

To be clear, this is not officially sanctioned by AA.  If there are disputes on the game we'll try to handle them as fairly as we can, but there will be limits to what we can do since much of this is being handled off-game.

2019-12-01 18:01:31

Update:
It will be necessary to disclose a bit of information before going any further on our end.  When you do something of this nature it is hard to determine what someone's response is going to be. All you can do is, particularly if you are attempting to do it with good intentions is to go forward as carefully and with as much transparency as possible.  When we first considered this idea we knew only that we wanted to get as much of the AA team involved as possible, if at all possible.  As such, we did our best to contact Dentin on multiple occasions throughout the last week.  It was our belief he had not responded owing to real life events; perhaps he was with family on the holidays.  We went ahead with our plans, thinking that the worst that might happen would be that Dentin would say he would not back us in any way, at which point we ourselves would probably have scrapped it all together, as it really wouldn't have made any sense to continue if there were no one in place who could have held us accountable.
Moments after the message was posted on board 7 concerning the lottery Morpheus sent at least one message over gosip as it had, obviously, generated his interest.  Through tells he commmunicated that he didn't believe there was anything wrong with the contest, but advised us to get in touch with Dentin for his support.  We assured him that we had but would continue trying to do so.  A message was sent to the bovine channel last night where most of the AA staff seems to hang out, kindly asking that if anyone knew where Dentin was that he please be notified that he had mudmail from us waiting for him.  Today, we received the following mudmail from Shadowfax.
I have removed your message from board 7 regarding the credit lottery
for violating rules 4.6 and 4.7. Do not repost it or attempt to
otherwise advertise any such lottery again.
4.6  - Thou shalt not run financial scams
This includes any kind of scam where a player asks other players for
loans of money, gold, or credits in-game with a promise to pay it back
with interest in a short time period.
Dentin does not screw around with money.  If you run financial scams,
you will be removed from the game and your account may be auctioned to
try to recover the debt.
4.7  - Thou shalt not beg for credits, gold, or money
Panhandling might not be illegal in the real world, but it is here on
Alter Aeon.  If you aggressively panhandle, you will be aggressively
removed from the game and have all your stuff auctioned off.
IN addition, our post on board 7 was deleted and the following put in its place:
Please do not use this board to solicit real life money for any purpose.
Not only can it be annoying, it can get us in trouble for legal reasons.
And so, it is for all of the above that we must discontinue our lottery and offer our sincerest apologies for any inconvenience our posting it on this forum, on AA or elsewhere may have resulted in.  We can honestly say that we weren't trying to scam anyone out of anything, and that this had never been our intention.  to further illustrate this, we must point out that the majority of the money in question would have, in fact, gone to AA itself, which is why we didn't interpret the above mentioned rules as such and find it surprising that they were taken as they were.  Furthermore, it was our hope to receive Dentin's support in full so that we could then broaden our horizons, posting it on any social media platforms where gaming groups might converse and exchange information so as to bring AA to more people's attention who might not altogether no about it, possibly resulting in more financial success for it.
In closure, I'd like to offer my thanks to Jayde here on the forum for his support in favor of what we were doing and his willingness to give us the benefit of a doubt.  If there's anything this experience has allowed me to rediscover, however, it's that we, each and every single one of us, cannot expect the same from everyone else and probably shouldn't, but that there is no sense in hurting about it when you don't get it, particularly if you meant wel to begin with.  I'd also like to thank anyone else who might have read this topic and had their reason, good or bad, for believing we might be up to something malicious but who held off on any public judgment.  Thank you all for your attention, time and patience.  IT is appreciated more than words will ever be able to convey.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-12-01 18:38:24

The people who organized this lottery don't strike me as being particularly untrustworthy, either. The thing is, this could definitely fall under the rules that Shadowfax mentioned. While I personally have no doubt that this lottery is legit, you also have to remember that you cannot just set rules aside based on gut instinct. That would create a precedent which would give other people  grounds for similar treatment. Said other people might be slightly less trustworthy than you guys, to put it mildly, but they would still be able to organize a similar lottery, saying something like: 'The night people were allowed to do this, so why not us?'

I think the situation could have been handled better from both sides. The message you were sent by Shadowfax wasn't particularly friendly, and there probably was no need for such harsh treatment when you were clearly trying to contact Dentin with your proposal. But on the other hand, you obviously noticed a red flag yourself, or you wouldn't have tried to contact Dentin in the first place. To go ahead with the lottery without the green light was, frankly, not very good judgment on your part either.

2019-12-01 18:41:38

I am thoroughly disgusted by Shadowfax's response here, especially in light of what Dentin said in the post above yours. It appeared that Dentin was playing cautious but was not slamming the door on anything, so to be dealt with in such a cavalier fashion by a staff member says a lot of things about AA in general, and staff conduct in specific, and most of it is not good.

I was not associated with this lottery, and am not particularly close to Nocturnis, but this pretty much just nailed AA's coffin shut as far as i'm concerned. I have no desire to return to an environment where that level of toxicity is the norm from staff, and can only hope that a public apology for the heavy-handed treatment is eventually offered to you.
Referring to this sort of thing, when it's been made clear of the nature of the lottery, as panhandling is just incredibly insensitive. It speaks to privilege, and I don't know about the rest of you, but when the self-proclaimed "voice of Alter Aeon" wants to be this much of a jerk, I don't really want to support it.

Seriously. This didn't even happen to me, and I'm pissed on your behalf, Nocturnis. If attempts were being made to contact Dentin, and Dentin owns the game, shouldn't the matter have been left to him to handle, as he began to do here on the forum?
God, what an operational mess. I am so glad I never actually became a builder there. I strongly suspect I would have seen some sort of idiocy up close and personal, spoken up about it, told somebody what's what, and gotten my ass shoved in the freezer.

Gah.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-12-01 18:45:54

I apologize for the lack of clarity as well, and we shouldn't go around casting blame.  We make the best decisions we can with the information we have, and sometimes we're wrong.  That's ok.

Personally, I don't think this is a scam.  However, it occupies a grey area where things can potentially be really problematic.  I have to think about more than just my feelings here, and that means making sure AA stays safe while we figure out the best way to deal with it.

2019-12-01 18:50:12

Jayde:  Shadowfax couldn't get in touch with me either, and he felt like he needed to do something, even if it was wrong.  He tried to find the best set of rules he could, and made a decision based on it.  Shadowfax sent the takedown quite a while before my post; it's no different than deciding to proceed with the lottery prior to getting approvals.

Please don't assume malice here.  As far as I can tell, everyone involved made decisions that made sense at the time, there were just communication problems.

2019-12-01 19:24:48

No malice? Well, let's see, shall we? Deconstruction time.

4.6  - Thou shalt not run financial scams
This includes any kind of scam where a player asks other players for
loans of money, gold, or credits in-game with a promise to pay it back
with interest in a short time period.
Dentin does not screw around with money.  If you run financial scams, you will be removed from the game and your account may be auctioned to try to recover the debt.

The assumptions in this part of the post are brutal. First, why is there an assumption that this is a scam? Second, why is Shadowfax presuming to speak for Dentin when Dentin has not actually weighed in yet?

4.7  - Thou shalt not beg for credits, gold, or money
Panhandling might not be illegal in the real world, but it is here on Alter Aeon.  If you aggressively panhandle, you will be aggressively
removed from the game and have all your stuff auctioned off.

Aggressive panhandling is when you go and, I dunno, stand on street corners and get in people's faces asking for money. You've got a sign, you're loud, you're visible, you move to maximize visibility. To categorize what Nocturnis was trying to do as panhandling, much less panhandling of an aggressive nature, is just plain inaccurate and, in my view at least, callous.

To be "removed aggressively" from the game also makes me wonder if Shadowfax has it in for people who are seeking donations or help. Why, you ask? Because such a response, in and of itself, was very aggressive. Why the need for it if there weren't personal feelings in volved? Surely, someone in Shadowfax's high position should, while being able to involve himself with such rules, also exercise a degree of candour, particularly if the validity of the situation is still in doubt? The fact that Shadowfax chose not to do this speaks extremely poorly of his character. If it wasn't malice, it was the next best thing.
People usually betray themselves with the language they use, and the indications here as far as I'm concerned is that Shadowfax either 1. really, really doesn't like people experiencing poverty, 2. really, really doesn't like it when people experiencing poverty ask for help or 3. has been really badly burned, either on the game or elsewhere, by a scam artist, and is letting personal biases inform his choice of language. I cannot be sure of any of this, but as someone who endeavours to pay attention to the language we use (self included, of course), it makes me wonder. This isn't just random dude using random language for no reason at all.

I fully recognize that these things are full of gray areas, Dentin, and I understand why you, yourself, are hesitant to endorse the lottery. It does open you up to a bunch of problems that you frankly don't need to deal with...or it could, at any rate. Your own reticence, I completely and totally understand. But to me at least, the way your staff member dealt with this sets an extremely bad precedent for people who are trying to do legitimate things via a means which, in the wrong hands, might be shady. Put bluntly, there were just so many better ways to handle this. I'll outline just one below.

4.6  - Thou shalt not run financial scams
This includes any kind of scam where a player asks other players for
loans of money, gold, or credits in-game with a promise to pay it back
with interest in a short time period.
At this time, we are unable to officially endorse or sanction your lottery, and we are removing the link until such time that Dentin can be contacted in order to investigate further. Dentin is understandably very careful with money. Until such time that Dentin gives a go-ahead, do not post any further links or references to your lottery or to the fundraiser in question.

Boom. Done. Still shuts it off, cuts any harm off at the source, but does not antagonize, belittle or even shame long-time players who are attempting to cover legitimate service animal costs in a creative way which actually may well have made Alter Aeon money in the long run.

To me, this is optics 101, and vital if you want to occupy a position of power. Shadowfax having adopted such a position of power, then misusing it in this fashion, has shattered most of my faith in him as an administrator. It's not just that he jumped the gun; it's how he said what he did. Nah, you can't just sweep this one under a rug and pretend it didn't happen, dude.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-12-01 19:31:27

https://alteraeon.com:8081/rules/4/6

https://alteraeon.com:8081/rules/4/7

He quoted the rules verbatim.

A.K.A. Draak - talk to me about any Alter Aeon questions or concerns!