26

just recently opened up this topic, I do have something to say here.
since 2007, I was introduced to a game called dark destroyer. when I first opened up and playing the game, I was surprised, that everything is read out loud. at first I didn't know at all, that there is an audio game exists.
about 2 years later, my friend introduces me to audiogames.net website. after finding out this site, I began trying to try out all of the games on the database, I think it's still at 300 games at that time.
after I play more and more audio games, I said to my self, why every audio games has the same type of gameplay? I mean, just look at side-scrollers like super liam or Q9. they are all the same. how about something like adventure at C? no, for me it's more close to the mainstream ones. there are puzzle elements, platforming, and other things, but mashing buttons in boss battles still applies here, only for some of them though.
now, let's move on to the japanese audio game market. from what I've tried, they are different from the western ones. I know, all of them is completely in japanese, but that wasn't the issue, because we have the japanese games translation addon, however some games, like BK3, is nearly translated fully in to english. for the gameplay, I can say this is what I'm looking for in an audio game. it's more having a mainstream feel to it. just look at shadow rine for example. there are multiple ending, extended replay values, extra contents, and more.
so, after enjoying audio games for about 11 years now, I'm still loving the mainstream ones. I like audio games, however many of them are quite boaring. I will still look at new audio games, however I'm only looking at something that interests me.
come on everyone, make something good, there are so many game genres that are lacking in the audio game industry, like for example interactive adventure games, in the mainstream ones there is something like for example the walking dead, batman season 1 and batman the enemy within, minecraft story mode season 1 and 2, the wolf among us, game of thrones, tales from the borderlands, heavy rain, beyond: two souls, until dawn, and many more. then the hack and slash genre of games, in the mainstream ones it's like the god of war series, DMC, bayonetta, and more. another game genre that we don't have is a turn-based tactical strategy games, in the mainstream ones for example there is XCOM and XCOM 2, the disgaea series, valkyria chronicles, sakura wars, and many others. I know there is one here, however from what I know brave of cloudia is not completed.
another one, is open-world games. I would like to see something more like yakuza or GTA games, not something like STW where there are no goals or anything, very sorry to the devs if I say this. also survivor horror or stealth games are a bit lacking here. there is darkend chained recently, however it's too short. I want something more like resident evil or the evil within.
and lastly, another game genre that I wanted to see is an action RPG, weather it's a fantasy RPG, post-appocaliptic or sci-fi RPGS.
that's all about things that I say here.
so, come on guys, make something better, don't try to make some kind of rip off to an existing games. that will disappoint all the players.

the end of the world is getting closer and closer,
many huge spaceships, satelyte lazers, disablers and others are trying to destroy the earth,
I take all of them down, and finally take the supreme commander himself,
the judgement day, is going to be happenning soon

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27

@26, totally agree. And to accomplish that, we need to forget BGT. We need to lock it up in the graveyard of destruction and burn it in the furnace. We need to completely eliminate it. Because the only thing it does these days is encourage people who think they can code good games when they actually can't to sit down and do it anyway. It doesn't help the community, it makes it worse. All it does is pull in more drama when those very same coders get complaints about the game and that people don't like it and the coders get bitchy because they game wasn't as epic as they imagined. And once we've eliminated BGT completely from this community... only then will this community actually get games that even come close to mainstream ones. We have very few of those: the BK series, Aprone's games, both series/sets of games have that mainstream feel to them -- or nearly there. (Too bad they don't work on consoles though.) But developers like that are far and few between. We need more -- a lot more, and we need people who actually are willing to take the time to develop and design a game from the ground up to show their faces. It might take years, but that's the hole life cycle of the games industry. In mainstream games people don't try and release games in less than a month -- those are called peaces of crap. And developers who release those peaces of crap are usually shredded to peaces, eaten, spit back out, shredded some more, eaten, spit back out and incinerated. Think I'm joking? Go look up mainstream reviews -- particular queries you're looking for are things like "top 10 worst games in history" and such -- and you'll see what I mean. So, we need to get rid of BGT, get those who release peaces of crap to actually sit down and learn how to design a real game, and we need true games that are high-quality and that work on consoles. smile

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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28

I have to agree with Mohamad. Online play really doesn't interest me the way it seems to do a lot of other people. I'll also agree that yes, audio games have grown a bit stale over the years, hence why I'll miss Thomas Ward since for all the frustration he caused a lot of people with the constant beta versions, he at least tried to give us something new. That's why I hope we'll eventually see more from Out of Sight. I truly believe AHC has had the potential to start something new for us. I think the real problem, at least from where I'm sitting, is that a lot of developers don't seem willing to try new things. I've heard people complain that we have too many side scrollers. I would say instead that we have too many generic ones. Thomas Ward was really the only one, at least in the English market, who seemed willing to try to show a more accurate representation of what the genre really has to offer. Granted, Philip Bennefall kind of did with Tarzan Junior, but even that was comparatively simple. You could also say that KeyIsFull ventured into some new territory with Battle Zone but not many other developers have, so it's not surprising that people think side scrollers are boring. Indeed, that was one of the ideas I'd had in mind for myself, to try to develop something more representative of what side scrollers in the mainstream market could offer.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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29

I have to agree. I really am starting to not like side scrollers. Their are some that I do like, for example Clash of Lightsabers, I could see that having so much more though.. But anyway, like I said their is a new shooter coming out for iOS and I'm sure it will be 360audio. And that is what I like. I don't like 180audio, I like 360better because it's very immersive and so much fun! 180audio isn't that good at all, like the blind swordsmen, I am glad you get to choose between 180 and 360. BGT however doesn't have an option like that and is so limited. I liked games such as Audio defense because it's full on 360audio. You know what I mean. But I don't like BGT now. Python might be the way to go, or something else other then BGT. So far this developer who I am testing a game says he is using a new engine that will be nothing like the papa engine, the CMR engine!! Darn it I shouldn't be telling you this, I don't wanna spoil the game for you guise. But anyway, the beta test will be released next month I think. Excited to try it out and also 2sighted players are joining. So yeah, anyway let's get back to the subject. We need to find a way to [kill BGT if you will. Just let BGT die. you know, Ultrapower has died, STW has a lot of controversy in the audio games forums and Redspot as well. And now Redspot is giving me errors, and you know, ETC. All I can say is BGT games in my opinion are fake. Fake BGT games!! The only game I can see more parental for BGT would be Clash of Lightsabers. That is the only game I can see more updates to.

And I hate small beats releases, I like more huge updates. It should take years, but it seems like BGT ruined the audio games! Like really~!! That's just my opinion. All of the FPS that uses BGT really suck. STW and Redspot need to be destroyed. If people like it I guess we won't do it, but I'm just saying, someone's gotta teach these developers how to really sit down and come up with a game idea. Just think of my ideas for example:

1. A zombie shooter, but not just that. My idea is to create a zombie shooter but with the ability to push zombies off buildings, throw zombies, throw your own corps at them and heck, even throw your own body at them, ETC. That is how I think. Unlike these other developers, man, I would have great ideas!! But because of BGT now I have to use a different source engine. And I might help out with the company that I will be testing out with, Mentalvissiongamesllc!! But anyway, we got off topic here, let's bring it way back. I'm just saying people, stop! Using! BGT! Viruses also! Windows defender! Sorry for the long post.

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30 (edited by Munawar 2018-05-13 03:49:40)

The reason why a game coded in a month or less ends up being sub-par is because we fail to realize that writing a game is much, much more than just coding. I have always argued that game "design" (notice the word choice here) is an art form. Coding is easy; anyone can do it. Game design is a whole other skill by its own. Not only must you code, but you also have to immerse the player in your world. Both the world and the code must go hand-in-hand, and it's this fact that we've lost in today's market.

For example, TDV took years to code, sound design, re-code and indeed, re-sound design for us to get it right. Hell, it was such a big venture we rolled out a whole new version (dubbed TDV 2 at the time) simply because of the effort involved in "remaking" it. And, I might add, more time was spent on sound design for TDV 2 than coding time.

It's that type of effort that is lacking today. We had that effort with Shades of Doom, Lone Wolf, and Super Liam to name a few titles. But over the years, the market has become more about coding than design. I remember how awed people were about the "AI" in Q9, for example, when in actuality it was simple AI. What does that say for where we've come as a market?

I think future developers need to keep in mind one thing: your sound designers and script writers might very well be worth more than you are. After all, in TDV 2 the only reason we do have alternate endings (@26, smile ) is because the sound designers were willing and able to put in the work to get the cut scenes in. We spent days (no type-o there) doing nothing but writing the script, going back, editing it, dumping it, rewriting it, etc. And many times we'd get into squabbles over the script (which had nothing to do with the code!)

So, what we really need is a revisit to actual game design, and not just "game development." We've forgotten that releasing a game isn't just smashing keys on a keyboard. It's an imaginative venture, and everyone involved must be at their best or the game won't succeed.

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31

I've always thought the same thing Munawar, but each person tends to devalue their own position.
Without coders who have a good work ethic, willing to ask for input and actually listen, fixing important bugs before adding big new features, keeping everyone in the loop on schedule changes or downtime, putting in the time to comment their code in an understandable way so that if they open source their project it can continue to give people enjoyment under someone else's direction, not making multiple unnecessary systems that do similar things, using simple or at least natural control layouts and menus to avoid frustration, optimizing when possible to make the game playable on more systems, willingness to use other solutions like other libraries or formats when it's needed to make progress or to include more users ETC.
And I get that allot of these things are more up to the team lead who may or may not be a coder as well, but even if you aren't the team lead, the coder can make this process go allot easier by being flexible and putting in the extra work rather than the bare minimum.
That applies to any team member it's true, but coders also have the additional issues of code ownership, delegation, bug tracking, managing their backups, and accepting when someone else has knowledge they don't and applying that knowledge rather than taking offense.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

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32

@Defender, the comment about value is geared towards the AG market, where the developers run the show. Yes, their positions are valuable. But I fear that many times everyone else is not seen as significant as the developers. It's this lack of coupling that's brought us to the point where we are now, where the single-person teams are making games that aren't being received well. My point is that the sound designer(s) need to be as engaged as the developers are to make the type of games OP is talking about. I'm a software engineer and would never underestimate a developer's position. I'm only pointing out the flaw in how games are written today, and where the priorities are, so let's not detract from the original issue.

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33

Exactly. That's one reason I was so impressed with AHC, since it's obvious that a lot of effort was put into the game over the four years or so it was in development.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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34

Yeah, I'm a little worried as to the state of Out of Site Games due to their main developer leaving. I can only hope it will be a temporary setback and they will be able to find their stride again.

The bipeds think this place belongs to them, how cute.

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35 (edited by defender 2018-05-13 07:39:42)

Yeah not trying to detract from your point, like I said I've thought the exact same thing for a while now about coders with talent and smarts, but bad interpersonal skills and no project management experience driving good games into the ground with their ego and selfishness.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

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36

hi.
I have to agree up to a certain level, I noticed that through out many game, the same mechanics for certain actions are used all the time, namely for example the hear and react type fighting system for most games, I remember that battle zone 2 concept had a four button fighting system with combos and the like which actually was a good start, I hope that more games pick that up and use it in their games, for example with maylay weapons like swords and the like so that you have different combos of attacks with a different effect for some, for example stunning the enemy as an example.
Greetings Moritz.

Hömma, willze watt von mir oder wie, weil wenn nich, dann lass dir mal sagen, laber mir kein Kottlett anne Wange und hömma, wo wir gerade dabei sind, dann iss hier hängen im Schacht, sonns klapp ich dir hier die Fingernägel auf links, datt kannze mir mal glaubn.

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37

someone said about not paying for the likes of swamp. well personally i would pay for it and do and here's why. firstly, the game itself has been designed brilliantly and well thought out. it does have a mainstream feel to it for sure. although when i could see i did take a look at the graphics side of it and i feel personally that they do let the game down. the graphics side of it and again this is only my opinion should have been first person not a topdown view. putting that aside though, swamp to my mind has been a big leep forward in audio games. it's an online fps which is great although i realise and accept that the view on online verses offline play is a personal view and that's as it should be. but no other game to my mind as yet has offered the same as what swamp has offered.
i would like to see more games like for example world of tanks or the likes of elite. with some of the constant offerings though the space invader clones, card games etc that we keep seeing flooding audio games i can't see this happening any time soon in part because i think a lot of the people who are currantly developing games don't have the skill to do so or haven't teamed up with enough people to make it happen.
i do have to say that a lot of audio games don't jump out at me because a lot of the descriptions of them and the write ups for the games just don't sell them to me. i do try some of the demo's but the majority of them just don't sell themselves.
swamp did because it constantly challanges you, the more you play it the further you get the harder it ggets which is as a game should be. i would like to see much bigger swamp maps i grant you but that's just a personal preference i love large areas but that doesn't detract from the game at all.
the likes of gtc were ok for their time but again they just don't cut it in the long run. lownwoolf however i thought was brilliant. that was definitely a step in the right direction although i haven't played it in many years i must admit. however that really was a good game and it did show even 10 13 or so years ago just what audio games could achieve. packman talks was another one. an excellent port from a visual game to an audio game. that was very very well done. now if only the likes of david, phil aprone could team up together to bring a combined project to life i could only begin to imagine what we would see.

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38

What I've been noticing is that because the market is so in need for games, people are basically willing to settle for anything. Just look at this topic, where OP is getting hate just for expressing dislike for certain games. It's the same mentality that leads to statements like, oh well, Apple didn't need to develop voiceover, let's not whine about the fact that there are a couple bugs when using it. A developer isn't developing a game because they feel sorry for those poor wittle blindies, at least I hope not, they're developing a game because they want to make a game. Any developer worth their internet connection should be willing to take constructive feedback, (which I'm going to admit OP is not particularly), and seriously consider it. and yet, even if they don't, we support them (E.G: VGStorm). If you really want better games, stop going ooh this is so amazing at the 3928375th space invaders clone, unless it has something truly unique about it, and start saving your praise, and money, for actual innovative projects. What counts as innovative will differ from person to person (For example, I consider swamp to tick this box because it forced people to mess around with the mouse, which people were refusing to do before), but my point still stands. If you're always willing to settle for less, you'll get less. if all you want is literally any game you'll end up with projects like the blindfold games, which, apart from six or seven basic templates, aren't really that different, and yet charge what is it, 15 dollars for full access per game? Before I get hate for this, explain to me the drastic differences coding wise between making a crazy eights game and a Uno game, and how that justifies paying 15 dollars for each (don't even get me started about the whole omnibus app deal).
If I make a game, and it gets extreme praise/people pay for it, what am I more likely to do, especially if I'm new to developing and so am feeling insecure about my skills/in it for the money (we all need to eat and all). Reuse the mechanics of my older game to make a slightly different newer one? or go back to the drawing board and come up with a completely new idea. I mean, look at STW VS Redspot. totally different games, but you can't do anything in redspot that you can't do in STW.
P.S: Someone explain to me what a Hero's call does that's so completely astonishing in the AG market. The way I see it, all it does, innovation wise is combine mechanics we've seen before into a whole. I bought it for this reason, and it was a fun game, but I really don't understand why people keep acting like it's end all of audio game development. I'd personally consider some of Aprone's titles to be overall more amazing, and none of them have the gloss that is professional voice acting, last I looked. The one cool thing that AHC does is it's graphics deal, but from my understanding that's on hold indefinitely after they lost their main dev.

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39

post 21. I don't remember claiming that multi player games are bad. however, they can be more fun, and because of the community, you can do more. for instance, say a game like swamp has a mission or a quest. what will be more enjoyable? doing it offline all alone, or joining a few people, and work together?

as for post 22, I partially agree with you, but I partially don't. here's why. while I agree that the FPS categories are long since boring, we pretty much get an FPS in BGT from almost every dev. Ivan has one, Sam has one, there's fireFight, and a bunch of others I don't remember. oh wait, Mason also had one. some of these games, while may not necessarily a clone, but they share similar, if not identical components. so what do we have? a different title, under a different developer, that works the same way. not to mention BGT has quite a fair bit of resources out there, so one could probs make a game in about a month, if they knew how to code. with all that said, some devs do have creativity. VGStorm, for instance, while they use BGT, their things are actually different. same goes for crazy party. while I wouldn't exactly say that BGT is the main issue to blame here, a lot of it is to do with devs, community, and connections, rather than anything.

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40

apologies about double posting, but just something else I picked up on. sound designing. to everyone who has raised it, good on you. honestly, while I can't code no crap, the biggest issue that I'm worried of when making anything, are sounds. you either spend hours edititing or creating, or purchasing. you still have to assign, label, etc. and that honestly just looks boring and tedious. I personally have a rather complex game idea in mind, I even thought out the controls, but I can't create it because of the lack of coding knowledge, and I would still need someone who I trust, and has resources for the sound side of things.

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41

Post 30, I couldn't agree more! There is a common belief that programmers are the only ones that break or make a game. Sure, there are some developers who have multiple talents: some have a good ear for sound design, some are relatively good writers, and some can compose music along with the other aforementioned talents. Let's face it though, a single programmer can only do so much as a single contributor to a project. I too understand that some technologies are older than others, and perhaps it's time to move on, etc. However, it seems to me that people take too much time arguing about which programming language is good, which is outdated, and so on. While I do agree this is a  reasonable concern, it shouldn't be the first thing one should think about. The keyword in all of this, in my opinion, should be teamwork. If someone has a desire to make a game, and they make an effort to assemble a group of music composers, sound designers, writers, and co-programmers, that team is more likely to make a good quality game as compared to a single programmer who could take years and years before making something worth playing. Now, before some of you start arguing that the resources are just not there sometimes, I'd like to point out that this is just a matter of logical thinking. More people is better than one. Game design takes time and planning. This kind of planning can fall into the realm of software engineering practices (requirements design, documentation, prototyping, etc), but it doesn't have to be that precise. Unfortunatley, that kind of iterative thinking strategy isn't fully realized by beginning software developers because of the instant gratification effect. Besides, its probably overkill for games. Or is it? Perhaps  if you want a good quality game it's not! While it can become tiring to see a great number of similar FPS, side-scrollers, card games, etc, you have to realize that first-time game developers just want recognition, especially after working on a project they consider to be a great beginning accomplishment. Besides, I truly believe that you have to show appreciation for what we already have going for us. As an example, the BlindFold games! OK, maybe the developer made some poor choices in terms of releasing the number of apps when he could have created a single app. Perhaps he may not do so well in sound design. Let me tell you though, he was able to find his demographic, and as such, he will continue to produce apps as he's been doing in the past because that works for him. Well, the in-app purchases are rather ridiculous. But it's as simple as this: Someone is making an effort to produce games for a small population of people. You don't have to like them, but it doesn't mean they're completely pointless, useless, or not worth anyone's time. Heck, even RedSpot and STW are great to play from time to time, provided that you don't let the drama or player-base get to you. All these games have something to offer, and being mindful of that can come a long way in my opinion.
As you can probably see, I have a lot to say on this matter! smile Ultimately though, I'd like to make it clear that game development is know easy task, and can easily be separated from your average software development projects, even professional ones. Therefore, just the fact that one person, or a group of people, is able to see a project through to its finish is in itself something worth praising.
Some of you have raised points about the right to complain. Yes, I agree that everyone has the right to speak their mind! However, if we are to see progress, it is my opinion that we, the blind-gaming community, need to approach criticism in a constructive manner, rather than coming off as being entitled. Haven't some of you heard of the so-called compliment sandwich? lol It works like this: Give someone a compliment, followed by a statement of where they might need improvement, and topping it all off with another compliment. I can get really deep and philosophical about all of this, but I'm probably writing way too much at this point. smile I have one more thing to address.
Now, some of you keep going on about how mainstream video games have this and have that, while Audiogames continue to fall behind. Well, you probably already knew this, but mainstream video games are developed by large companies consisting of professionals in many fields. You can't possibly think we, as a small audiogaming community, can approach the productivity output accomplished by the organized infrastructure of professionals that encompass the video game industry. It's not that I don't have faith in the people in this community. I just believe we don't have that kind of professionalism and/or reward going for our local talent, as it were. Wouldn't it be great if all of us in the audiogaming community formed an organization of sorts that worked together to make a game of all games? Yeah, it would be great! But wait, drama is bound to arise, interests might not agree with one another, etc. For the mean time, I'll keep imagining my idealistic world while we let the video game industry and its player-base have all the fun. smile

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42

Agreed with 41.
OK, so, as someone who has spent the entirety of the 21st century trying to develop the kinds of games people keep asking for, do I have an explanation for why we don't have any?
While I think Ethin's harping about BGT specifically is misguided, there is a sizable kernal of truth there: the instant I saw something I could use to make a game, I always dove in before mastering it. But that's paltry compared to the other things.
First, conscientiousness is not cheap. Unless you have insurance that will pay for it. And the necessary prescriptions. And so on, and so on. This was such a huge pain in the everything that fighting this particular battle is the overarching narrative of 2006-2016 for me. I eventually had enough data to do some low-power stats, and I think I have an idea of what the solution is. And, seeing as the most important part is hanging out with someone awesome in meetspace, and doing that after school is actually really, really hard, consistency remains elusive. Since most of you are in school and probably believe in will power and free choice and such, let me repeat this: that is not what you get for being born; that's what you get when lots of things go right and you don't have ADHD. If you can't get it, then ignore this paragraph, as there is no way to communicate it without a decent frame of reference.

Which brings us to the next point: game development is something an individual can do. Game development beyond Adventure at C:, without a compotent and well-managed team, is much harder than it should be. I can write many things. I cannot manage a team to save my life. The magnitude of this problem was not made clear until after I got here. I basically need to find someone to be my HR department. And since it's kinda self-absorbed to assume I can just post on social media "hey, want to manage my project and do all the people parts?", I'd need to pay someone to take the job. And that brings us back to cash.

Tell me this: how much money was spent on developing the most popular audio games? Liam? Aprone/Kai? Yukio? Did any of these make their flagship products without some sort of initial investment, even if it's just a sound library?
I do not have time to say all that I want, but yeah, I'll be back.

Some of my games
Keep up to date by following @Jeqofire on twitter!
Ear Ninja?

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43

Rashad it's not so much the fact that he expressed dislike for certain types of games. It's the way he did it. And yes I realize that in text it can be hard to read a person's intended tone, but the way he expressed it came off as nothing more than whining. That may not have been intentional (I'm sure it wasn't_, but that's how it came out, especially when he was talking about Samp and how he would never pay for it. Now granted he did eventually explain that, but had he done so right from the beginning I'm sure people might have been a bit more understanding.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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44

Sure the OP worded himself badly. but this is far from the only time this happens. I could cite examples, but you really don't have to go looking hard to see, just look at that new RPG that's supposed to come this month, echoes from whatever it's called. It's also an attitude that goes far beyond audio games, as I tried to illustrate with my Apple example.

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45

[cont'd]
AHC is a good example. It took 5 years, a small team, and in the end, they still had to kickstart it. True, it's a a thousandth of the cost of a scrappy-but-profit-oriented mainstream game, and that fact is somewhat encouraging ($2000 instead of $2000000? Yes please!), but how many of us have that, and the time and skills to make use of it, never mind the team?
The fact that sound libraries get reused saves money, if someone uses them more than once. Oh, hey, also? Making a solid game requires solid work. Emphasis on the work. I once did the math, then took some serious discounts because my games consistently fail, and found that SSI mostly pays for the work I've done. Someone who'd make the stuff we want, though? They really should be getting competitive pay. And that's just not happening, because competitive pay for a mainstream developer is $10k/month. Which, you might recall, is 10× the cost to develop The Gate, twice the cost Philip Bennefall put into Perilous Hearts, and just shy of what AHC's kickstarter brought in. As loathed as I am to admit it, we mostly get what we pay for, and we hardly pay for anything.
As a general rule, passion projects do worse than commercial projects. This is terrible and I hate it because I do not want to make commercial projects when I should have made LC a decade ago. But Treasure Planet and Windows Vista are pretty telling, and seem to be the rule rather than the exception.
So, you devs who are still in school? If you get close to graduation and still want to do this, have enough of a network to avoid these pitfalls, and maybe do it part-time so you can fund something that will convince people to fund your next project?

Some of my games
Keep up to date by following @Jeqofire on twitter!
Ear Ninja?

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46

Ok Here are my thoughts. I personally tend to stick tward the free audio games, not so much because I think they are bad, or that I just choose not to pay for them, but because Finantially  I can't afford to. That being said, I can certainly understand why developers charge for some of their games. Look at GMA tank commander, loan wolf, entombed etc. All good games in my opinion, and If I could I would buy them. Then I like plenty of free games like tactical battle, Eurofly, Kitchensinc games etc. I guess Errric I just feel like your putting down audio games as a whole, and that rubs me the wrong way just a tad. I'm even trying to develop my own audio hockey game using BGT.

Audio game king

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47

okay. I'm definitely hearing that lots of people don't like bgt, and I've had the suggestion to start coding with python. Bare in mind, that anything I create I'm going to have to outsource everything like the sounds, music and voice acting and stick with the coding end of things since I no nothing about sound editing or voice acting. So where do I get this python, and how can I begin learning to code with it. Thanks so much.

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48

Erick wrote:

I have to agree. I really am starting to not like side scrollers. Their are some that I do like, for example Clash of Lightsabers, I could see that having so much more though.. But anyway, like I said their is a new shooter coming out for iOS and I'm sure it will be 360audio. And that is what I like. I don't like 180audio, I like 360better because it's very immersive and so much fun! 180audio isn't that good at all, like the blind swordsmen, I am glad you get to choose between 180 and 360. BGT however doesn't have an option like that and is so limited. I liked games such as Audio defense because it's full on 360audio. You know what I mean. But I don't like BGT now. Python might be the way to go, or something else other then BGT. So far this developer who I am testing a game says he is using a new engine that will be nothing like the papa engine, the CMR engine!! Darn it I shouldn't be telling you this, I don't wanna spoil the game for you guise. But anyway, the beta test will be released next month I think. Excited to try it out and also 2sighted players are joining. So yeah, anyway let's get back to the subject. We need to find a way to [kill BGT if you will. Just let BGT die. you know, Ultrapower has died, STW has a lot of controversy in the audio games forums and Redspot as well. And now Redspot is giving me errors, and you know, ETC. All I can say is BGT games in my opinion are fake. Fake BGT games!! The only game I can see more parental for BGT would be Clash of Lightsabers. That is the only game I can see more updates to.

And I hate small beats releases, I like more huge updates. It should take years, but it seems like BGT ruined the audio games! Like really~!! That's just my opinion. All of the FPS that uses BGT really suck. STW and Redspot need to be destroyed. If people like it I guess we won't do it, but I'm just saying, someone's gotta teach these developers how to really sit down and come up with a game idea. Just think of my ideas for example:

1. A zombie shooter, but not just that. My idea is to create a zombie shooter but with the ability to push zombies off buildings, throw zombies, throw your own corps at them and heck, even throw your own body at them, ETC. That is how I think. Unlike these other developers, man, I would have great ideas!! But because of BGT now I have to use a different source engine. And I might help out with the company that I will be testing out with, Mentalvissiongamesllc!! But anyway, we got off topic here, let's bring it way back. I'm just saying people, stop! Using! BGT! Viruses also! Windows defender! Sorry for the long post.

BGT being fake or killing the market? Honestly, as with most things, it turned out neat results, and horrible ones. If not for bgt, we might have had a lot less games to pick from. It's just game "programming" made easy, though story design and sound design are still required, the thing to make those words and sounds into something where you can press buttons to make something happen is a lot easyer to understand then learning a programming language like python or c++ or what not, and make that into the thing that allows people to press buttons and get something done. It's probably a weird post, but that has its reasons lol...

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49 (edited by musicalman 2018-05-19 17:14:57)

I have a few people to reply to it looks like...
@29:

Erick wrote:

Someone's gotta teach these developers how to really sit down and come up with a game idea. Just think of my ideas for example...

Good luck finding a developer who will listen to that tone. I will agree with the very last part of your post where you mention that BGT and Windows Defender don't play nice, though I've not had issues yet, so I don't know what's going on there. Maybe they fixed it in the later versions of Windows 10? If it's a real annoyance for you, I can understand why you'd want to stay away from BGT games. And there are a few other reasons which I could actually say are fair to stay away from those games too. But there is too much negativity for BGT in my opinion and your post doesn't make the best case.

When people start knocking a programming language, or anything for that matter, they should do so with solid arguments that go beyond simple experiences. As an example, I don't buy these arguments that people make about how sucky BGT games are. Developers create games, not programming languages. So if you don't like a game, it is probably something the developer did. True, the language may have limitations, but a good developer will either work around these limitations or switch languages, and in either case they are exercising creative artistry, which is a highly subjective thing.

To be clear: I am not trying to imply that BGT is adequate or inadequate to make a good game, since I firmly believe that is up to the person/people producing the game. If you would like to use 3D audio, or some other external library that really makes your game work, and BGT can't do those things, then by all means avoid it if you believe it will be in your best interest to do so. But simply spouting off how incompetent teenagers are at developing games and blaming it on the simplicity of BGT is, in my opinion, not a very healthy attitude to take. Lackluster developers will be lackluster developers with or without BGT, just like drunk people will get drunk with or without a bar to drink at.

To those who think BGT should be killed because it's too limited: remember that Not every game needs the latest and greatest tech. Brainstation doesn't need 3D audio. And even more action-oriented titles like Crazy Party don't really need it either. There are a few circumstances in Crazy Party where more audio feedback would be nice, say, to be sure when things are behind you. But still, I would have a hard time using either of these games to justify the arguments that BGT is useless, a toy, worthy of death, or the other things people say about it. I wouldn't complain if either of the devs decided to switch languages, but I don't see why they'd have to.

Games like The Road of Life, which I think are trying to be immersive and which do require some strategic precision, demonstrate some limits. I would love for the game to have better positional audio so I could more accurately hear what's going on, but that isn't possible. I still enjoy the game though because of the argument above where the developer makes the game, not the programming language.

Unless I am mistaken, BGT is the most attractive option for beginners. They don't have to set up sound libraries, or screen reader support. If you know nothing about programming, those tasks alone seem daunting. Take it from someone who doesn't know how to program, not even with BGT. Yes I could do research, and maybe find some audio game development kit that a dev has made, but who knows how hard that'll be to track down if it even exists. That part alone would require dedication, patience and other things I don't possess. And I'd still have to learn how to program, probably at the same time! So yeah this isn't my calling. If I do anything, it will be with BGT at least at first. I'm probably going to get people coming at me with spikes saying "that's what's wrong with most of our developers" but whatever. The way I see it, given how thinly stretched resources are to develop audio games as it is, BGT is just one thing that makes the process a little bit easier and people can still do nice things with it. From what I hear, it's a good stepping stone to learn other languages. If that's the case, then I hope more people will make that step.

A few people have stopped using BGT because they don't like it for whatever reason, and I don't have a single issue with that. But I believe that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Whatever you do, let's at least try to be happy. In a small community like this one that is just as wide as it is diverse and thinly distributed, we need support and encouragement. We need teamwork. We need rational minds and helping hands. Not entitled shouting and stamping of feet in an attempt to form some unity; trust me, that never, ever works. Please don't do it!

@41 (kaigoku) I agree with you completely, and @42 (Cae) I also agree.

CAE_Jones wrote:

I cannot manage a team to save my life. The magnitude of this problem was not made clear until after I got here. I basically need to find someone to be my HR department. And since it's kinda self-absorbed to assume I can just post on social media "hey, want to manage my project and do all the people parts?", I'd need to pay someone to take the job. And that brings us back to cash.

Yeah, that's my problem too. A friend of mine and I are trying to work on some games. We both are talented in sound design and music composition, or at least, talented enough to make something that will work. We have really high standards though. WE both have specific ideas which sometimes line up, sometimes don't, but we both do have visions. Main difference between us is he is a coder, at least an amateur one, and I am not. When he codes, I just watch and laugh when he gets mad because it isn't working lol. But eventually it does. Problem is, it takes us weeks to do one small level, and because of our high standards, the work is slow and exhausting.

We tried lowering our standards, but found it impossible to feel satisfied. We decided to delegate: He can code and I can sound design, but there's too much overlap. He's really good, in some ways I believe better than me. So I am always too worried that my sounds wont' make the cut, or he'll spend all day editing them to fit his code better, which I don't have a problem with per say, it just isn't always efficient. We tried helping me learn to code so that we could have equal roles in the projects. That fell on its face practically before it had a chance to make a stand, though we were probably going too quickly in an effort to get me up to speed. In any case I just don't have the passion for coding that I do for audio production, and even my passion for that is just a hobbiest one, I don't think I'd want to do it all the time.

Because we both are good at what we do, we are always afraid of disagreements, which we believe would become worse with a larger team. I think I'm quicker to admit though that we need better team skills. I don't feel like our ideas are really worth taking too seriously though. That's probably the biggest reason the team idea hasn't gotten underway.

Edit: improved clarity

Make more of less, that way you won't make less of more!
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50

I wasn't really sure if I wanted to respond to this. A few people have already said what I was thinking, and they did so better than I would have. So, I”ll keep it brief.

I just want to reiterate something that has been implied but not directly mentioned. Games do not exist in a vacuum. For every game listed on this site, there's a person or persons behind them who took the time to develop them. The development of which was not free. They spent personal resources, blood, sweat, and tears. They are not triple-A companies with a staff of thousands; some of them undoubtedly have barely functioning PCs. And here come some of you crapping on everything they did just because you're bored or it's not your cup of tea. Shame on you.

Speaking of triple-A companies, you're not likely to get much support from them in terms of audio games. It's just not financially viable for them. Sure, companies like EA have extended a hand and set up accessibility departments and that's great, but those extensions will always be very limited in scope. I'm not bashing their efforts; I think what they have done is great. I'm just being realistic. So, if we want large scale games, it's up to us. If we can't develop them by ourselves then we need to support those who can and will.

If you're not willing or able to even support smaller efforts, then at least don't actively discourage people because you don't like their game.

I am one  of those struggling developers and reading some of these comments makes me wonder why I even desire to publish anything—just to put effort into something I am proud of, only to have it chewed up and spit out on the internet.

And to crap on BGT? Before there was BGT, developing an audio game was not a fun process. You had to pull together disparate packages, hope you could find what you wanted, and try to get your stuff piped through TTS somehow. BGT made things much simpler. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Was it a huge project that does not deserve to be crapped on? Absolutely. And to suggest Python as a code base? Python was never meant to be a gaming language. It's not even a true language; it's a scripting language. Can you make games with it. Yeah, and great ones have been made. But, if I was going to suggest a language other than BGT, it sure wouldn't be Python.

That said. Use whatever code base has the features you want to implement in your game, or makes you feel comfortable. There is no right answer here. Use the shoe that fits you best. It's not about the language, it's about the creator. If you can make a successful game somehow with Pascal, good on you.

BGT is the baby that does not need to be thrown out with the bath water. It has done a lot to get young programmers interested in game design. To beat it up is just pompous posturing.

If you have criticisms, fine, make them as constructive as possible. I'm not saying you have to use the “complement sandwich” (sorry, that kind of made me roll my eyes there a bit), but at least have something other than “It sucks” to say. Empty complaining is useless other than a laugh or two if it's creative enough. Nothing I saw here made me laugh, and, contrary to what it looks like here, I do generally laugh easily.

I'll even give the original poster here a bit of a pass since they seem pretty young, but not all of you are extended the same courtesy.

If you're wrong, you're wrong.
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