2012-11-11 13:40:26

As to parchment, well that's the first time I've found ie8 not working, and I'm a little surprised given how other if related stuff and online brouser  games tend to work fine.

Unfortunately though sinse crome is inaccessible, firefox is unstable, and windows 7 is the spawn of satan, I'm a little stuck here, (why microsoft couldn't just carry on with xp or at least make a new version of windows that did everything xp did or at least included backwards compatibility and a none stupid interface I don't know!).

Nevermind, I've always been a fan of winglulx anyway.

As to kerkerkruip, One of the best points about the game is also it's worst. Every fight is so  significant, that there can only be a limited amount of them. Thus, there can't be a mob of smaller enemies to gain xp from or a vast array of enemy classes and effects to appear at random, sinse it's the significant fights and powers that matter, and you do after all get all  health back after each successfull fight.

this unfortunately also limits exploration, sinse if you have a limited total number of enemies, you can only have so much space to put them in. 

I would actually be interested in seeing as an alternative to kerkerkruip's shorter, intensive gameplay, a longer, exploration based game with some of the principles of kerkerkruip, but focusing on randomized quicker battles, exploring a larger dungeon (perhaps 50 or 100 rooms),
with successive experience, in other words, something a little closer to the traditional longer play roguelike, though still with some of kerkerkruip's elements like basic tactical combat, weapon generation etc, even if things like the ability gathering had to be changed to fit into a longer setting (perhaps one ability each level, or having special bosses who gave abilities).

this however I think would be a different project from kerkerkruip as it currently stands, and making such changes to the game would lose part of it's unique quality.

Perhaps some thoughts for a kerkerkruip Ii? or maybe another  game entirely with a different plot, (I got the idea this was the sort of direction victor was thinking with the old Idols of war beta that later become kerkerkruip, sinse that had far more monsters, but simpler combat and successive experience).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2012-11-12 03:55:09

Good points Dark, it's just that with the game as short as it is, and with the optimal strategy being invariant from game to game, it isn't something I'm going to love for a long time.  The lure of new content for higher levels of achievement is a good incentive, but I still feel like I want something a little more variable.

You're right though, I'm not sure how to do it while staying within the large frame of the game.

And to the developers, please understand this is not to say you haven't created an excellent game of its scale, I'm just a demanding weeny-head who wants more of a good thing.  Just call me Oliver.

2012-11-12 10:56:26

I agree violinist, more is good, but as I said I think kerkerkruip's very formula slightly  prohibits the amount of content the game can hav,  just in the same way that the  small size of the dungeon over all means that you can! have an optimal stratogy for which monsters to defeat when and what abilities or souls to get.

I  will confess, much as I love the games' combat and randomness, i do slightly miss     quantative experience levels, sinse to go through a really tough  fight, use optimum weapons and then turn out weaker than  when i started is a tad disappointing, I also do love the way in longer games I can see my character develope from weed to warrior (or wizard or whatever), and of course  the traditional class based path does allow a lot of replay options (particularly if tree structures for advancement are followed).

As I said, i have nothing against kerkerkruip and I think victor has done a  fantastic job with the game, but maybe it's now time for a different animal, something longer and more explorative with a more quantative form of experience.

I'd love to see a game with some of the kerkerkruip style mechanics but a dungeon of 70 or more rooms (the more the  merrier), even using random description generation or havng some repeated rooms. I'd also love to see a hole hoard of nasties, perhaps with simpler stats or mechanics, but coming in droves.

Text exploration is always one of  my favourite factors in a game, seeing different parts of the dungeon and a different variety of monsters, which is exactly why i've been helping with beata testing Eamon deluxe, even though the combat in Eamon games is far simpler than kerkeruipr  most of the time, sinse when written well the explorative nature of eamon even with the the simple combat work exceptionally.

it'd be great to see  some of the mechanics of kerkerkruip applied to this sort of explorative game too.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2012-11-12 21:14:29

Madviolinist, I understand your point, but I don't think it is true. At least I hope it's not -- if it is, we need to tweak some numbers.

Choosing the order in which you want to kill the monsters should be atrategic decision based on weighing short-term risk against long-term risk. Killing low level monsters first will minimise short-term risk, but will maximise long-term risk. For instance, you probably won't die if you do 1-2-1-3-2-4, but then you'll have to attack Malygris with only a level 4 power, which will be very difficult. On the other hand, going for high level monsters first will maximise short-term risk, but will minimise long-term risk. Your proposed order, 2-1-4-3-2-1, exemplifies this: if you manage to pull it off, then killing Malygris will be easy, but pulling it off won't be easy.

(I'm neglecting two additional complications: that it can be good to soften up a monster even though you know you'll have to retreat; and that it can be useful to keep a low-level monster alive as a source of health.)

So for this part of Kerkerkruip to be strategically interesting, it ought to be the case that the optimal strategy lies somewhere between these two extremes, though where it lies should depend on context. For this to be the case, it should be true that if you choose 1-2-1-3-2-4, Malygris will be too tough. It should also be the case that if you choose 2-1-4-3-2-1, the first and the third fight especially are too tough. It is my impression that this is the case; that, for instance, taking on a level 2 creature as the first creature in the game mostly doesn't work -- at least not on Adept and higher difficulty. You generally need to start with a level 1 creature. If you think I'm wrong about this, let me know; that would something that needs to be tweaked.

(By the way, two new monsters that should also shake up this reasoning a bit are on the way: a level 1 creature that gives you a negative power, which becomes positive only after it is driven out of your body; and a level 4 creature that is very weak, but that strengthens all the other creatures in the game. Nevertheless, it is important that the system is intersting even without these additions,)

Dark, as for your claim that there is a limit to the amount of content the game can have -- that's true for a single game, but of course not for the game as a whole! While Kerkerkruip would not be Kerkerkruip anymore if it turned into a long game, I certainly hope to put it full of surprising content that will make you come back for more. smile

2012-11-13 02:40:09

Sounds great, I'll look forward to seeing the   changes.

i really appreciate the changes and  stratogy of kerkerkruip, and it is in fact reaplayble (or maybe i've just not played it as much as violinist), however I would really  like to see the same stratogy applied to a longer, more explorative  game, and indeed one with  quantative experience to balance the exploration, ----- indeed I'd be interested to see what you could come  up with in the line of special explorer skills,  different tree structured abilities, traps to  disarm, various monsters generated and the like.

these would not be correct to have in a  comparatively short, high  tactics game  like kerkerkruip, but I'd love to see some of the kerkerkruip systems applied  to  such a game at some point in the future.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2012-11-13 04:37:00

Victor, thanks for the indepth reply.  The following comes from a fair amount of play, though not exhaustive.

The level 2 fight at first is the least likely of success.  If I can manage the 2 1 part of the optimal sequence, the 4 3 2 1 part of it is almost a given at least at levels up to 2.  Malygris is still a difficult match that depends as much on what gear I've managed to gather as anything else. 

For less optimal sequences, life does get harder, but for the most part, I have not yet encountered a situation where I had to choose a sub-optimal arrangement.  There was one game where I was in fact surrounded in the entrance hall by a 1, a 3 and a 4, but no 2 in sight.  i took my chances and sprinted past the 1 and in fact found my 2, at which point the rest of the round fell into place.  I had a similar experience where the topology didn't work out so well, and I ended up dying in my first fight because of being weakened by getting hit while running through occupied rooms.  So luck in arrangement does play a role, but perhaps it does not affect the optimality of the strategy as much as it should.

Now I've not achieved super high levels, so I can't speak to the difficulty of playing there.  Likely it does change so that you have to play the hand you're dealt more so than at lower levels.  This would run the risk of making luck too important, which is a really difficult balance to maintain.

Please understand, I do really enjoy this game and find a lot of its concepts quite fascinating.  I'm just a game design geek thinking out loud.  I'm looking forward to any new updates or releases in the works.

2012-11-13 05:38:57

Ah, just wait til IE 10 comes out as a preview! Actually Dark, I believe its already the 13th where ya are in the tower, thus it'll be around the corner!

2012-11-13 16:22:13

I have to put in my two sense in disagreement with Dark.  In short, if you want Alter Aeon, you know where to find it.  A text game like dark is describing seems to me like it would just become a single player autogenerated mud.  One of the things I do really like about Kerkerkruip is that it is a game with a mostly defined length. That means I can get in a quick game over my lunch hour, or on the bus, or whatever.  Advancing levels make it replayable, but each individual game is short enough to finish in one sitting. This is something I really like. I find with longer games like Entombed, I'm splitting my play over many, many sessions. This causes me to forget what skills my party has, what equipment I want, etc.  Kerkerkruip, while just as difficult as these longer games, is set-up much better for casual play.

2012-11-13 19:35:06

well if you are looking for a short game intrinsically, then kerkerkruip's short length is a bennifit, though myself because I am a fan of exploration and of longer games I do not see it s.

However I disagree that  alteraeon or indeed any auto generating mud is comperable to the sort of long, exploration game I had in mind in suggesting an  extended, explorative game with some of kerkerkruip's mechanics.

In a  mud, combat exists in a very specific sense, and even in a game  like alteraeon with it's many skills etc, it  comes down to you using your skills on your opponent and a lot of set building. [ plus, it is not turnbased, so  you do not have time for long descriptions, many special abilities of enemies etc.

then, a mud is! multiplayer not single player. it isn't possible for instance to have areas scaled to a players abilities, or have generation items or skills of the player that affect the game, for instance a search for traps or search for  treasure item, or the ability to  gain   knolidge of important items.

then of course there is the pure text aspect too, sinse in an auto generating dungeon with the same textual descriptions as  kerkerkruip, there is a lot more in atmosphere and environment, as well as  environmental affects that occur in specific rooms.

If I had a model for an extended kerkerkruip it is Angband which has many of these features but (apart from being not exactly accessible unless you can see the graphic tyles), also lacks severely both in description, and in the detail of it's turn based combat irrispective from the directional system.

Kerkerkruip's combat is quite unique, I've not seen something like it, I am merely suggesting that those techniques be applied to a longer game with other good features such as exploration  experience.

I will freely admit I love long games and lots of exploration, sinse that is just the style of thing I enjoy, though i wouldn't cryticize a game like kerkerkruip which is  in some ways intentionally short, however it does strike me now that victor has shown his skills in a short game with limited exploration, i'd love to see what he could do in a long one!

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2012-11-13 22:25:28

Hi.
Someone said that kikerkruip can be played in parchment. Isn't parchment only for zcode games? And isn't kirkerkruip in glulx format?
I recall Andrew Plotkin writing a java glulx vm called Quixe, but wouldn't Quixe be incompatible with parchment?

“Can we be casual in the work of God — casual when the house is on fire, and people are in danger of being burned?” — Duncan Campbell
“There are four things that we ought to do with the Word of God – admit it as the Word of God, commit it to our hearts and minds, submit to it, and transmit it to the world.” — William Wilberforce

2012-11-14 03:19:55

Parchment includes Quixe inside it. smile

You can try it here: http://iplayif.com/?story=%2F%2Flilith. … est.gblorb

2012-11-14 23:52:44

@victorGijsbers, have you considered using Dice-Lock by S. John Ross rather than removing Undo all together?

“Can we be casual in the work of God — casual when the house is on fire, and people are in danger of being burned?” — Duncan Campbell
“There are four things that we ought to do with the Word of God – admit it as the Word of God, commit it to our hearts and minds, submit to it, and transmit it to the world.” — William Wilberforce