2012-01-04 15:09:27

Moderation!

Partly due to the release of Bgt, we now have more developers than ever posting various projects on the forum. I'm very disappointed however to see that often discussion of these projects has lead to some extremely! impolite and unpleasant behaviour among various forum members.

this is most distinctly not! acceptable, and unless certain people alter their atitude and show some more respect to those around them, whatever differences of opinion they have, stricter moderation tactics may need to be employed.

Ie, suspentions or even bans will become a more common thing.

i'd rather this not happen, sinse I'd much rather the forum stay relaxed.

i therefore urge all members to carefully considder the following points when dealing with new developers posting their various projects.

1: Nothing is bug free. any piece of newly developed software will contain bugs, simply because the developer cannot test it on every configuration of machine.

While a developers' experience, how wide the circle of private testers is, and how complex the software is all play a factor, it's rare indeed to find a piece of software that is totally bug free upon first release.

the best way to deal with bugs is either to wait until a bugfix version is released, or to offer a detailed and comprehensive report to a developer of what the bug is, with error text if possible.

This is even more true if a developer is posting a public beta or even alpha of the game.

Complaining about bugs, saying the game is "crappy" or other such insulting behaviour will not get bugs fixed, indeed it'll probably make the developer less inclined to fix them.

2: practice games. As per the db guidelines, it's fine for developers to post practice games or code exercizes on the forum.

these are simple projects designed as a test of the developers' own skill, posted either to let the community know how the developer is progressing with his/her code, or even to see how well the developers projects work on other systems.

As practice games, these may be simple, repetative or even completely pointless, but their intention is not as serious game projects, thus when passing judgement and opinions on them this should be taken into account.

Afterall, if a person started off learning the piano, you wouldn't expect Grieg's concerto from them, indeed at the beginning even nursery rhymes may be an achievement given their level of skill.

3: considderate Cryticism. Remember that anyone posting a project online has worked on it.

Anyone who has even looked at the Bgt tutorial will know that coding games is a long way from being easy, thus anything a person posts here has taken some degree of work.

to have a comment like "this is a really crappy game" after putting in that work is just demoralizing to a developer, and also extremely unhelpful if they are to improve in the future.

This is not to say only give good comments on a developers work, but attempt to recognize the fact that you are discussing something that has taken them time and effort to create, rather than just being negative, or stil worse insulting.

For example, rather than saying "The sounds are terrible, the explosion sound is too loud" say "Perhaps the sound could be improved in the next version sinse I found the explosion sound too loud" focusing on what the developer can improve, rather than what he/she has done wrong.

Also, if there are! any good points that can be mentioned mention these too and don't concentrate only upon the negative.

4: differences of opinion.

Different people will have different opinions on any subject, games in particular. Discussion of different points of view about newly created games are deffinately welcome, but please remember that any such discussion must remain amicable, and remain about the issues at hand. if a person thinks differently to yourself, this is either because A, they have not considdered some reason you have for holding your opinion or B, because they simply have a wildly different preference.

In either case a discussion may be valuable to have, either to illuminate your preferences, or to offer the reasons for a given point of view, however please remember that neither is a reason to call another person stupid or dismiss their views as simply bad.

5: Language and tone.

Just because you are on the internet, this is not an excuse to behave in a way that you wouldn't in real life, thus all the rules of politeness and considderation for others apply just as equally.

indeed, sinse on the internet the only thing people will see is your text, and not the tone of voice in which you meant it, careful considderation of what you say is even more necessary.

A comment like "and another stupid game" could be incredibly insulting if just taken as read, and without the addition of tone of voice is even more open to missinterpretation.

So, politeness and plane speaking are even more necessary on the internet than in real life.

I hope people will cconsidder these points carefully, sinse the behaviour I've seen in several recent threads about new games has certainly! been less than acceptable, and if things do not improve more drastic measures, including more serious punishments may become necessary!

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2012-01-04 15:35:57

hi.
I think most of the members on this forum are pretty ok,
but there are a few of them who are the troublemakers.

they should be banned temporarily, so they might be getting a lesson.
for example,
robla,
hayden,
and there were a few others as well,
but they dont appear much on here.

He picked up the wrench and broke the guy’s wrist with it, one, and then the other wrist, two, and turned back and did the same to the guy who had held the hammer, three, four. The two men were somebody’s weapons, consciously deployed, and no soldier left an enemy’s abandoned ordnance on the field in working order.

2012-01-04 16:12:00

Hi,

Exactly calling names is not what Dark was aiming for. This is a message to the forum, not to any particular members. I don't see you being polite either.

I try my best to be fair to everyone, and help whereever I can. But I'm not wanting to help in a community where everyone points fingers and calls bad names.

--
Talon
Wanna play my Games? Listen to my Music? Follow me on Twitter, and say hi~
Code is poetry.

2012-01-04 17:09:26

HI,
Excuse me, but I do not apreciate you passing judgement on me as a forum poster, Sid, and I have to agree with Kevin, you can't call yoursle fmuch more if you are goign to just start determining those whom you deme "trouble makers", especially considering i had no part in teh discussion, nor indeed have any idea what it was about.

Best Regards,
Hayden

2012-01-04 17:28:21

Sid, you really have no reason to pass judgement on people you don't know in person. I can admit, some people on the forum have rubbed me the wrong way however, it really doesn't matter. I bet if i knew the people on this forum in person, there would be no issues. Its different knowing people in person and on the internet. And as dark mentioned, you can't really judge tone of voice with text.

2012-01-04 19:59:21

Hi Dark and all,

As I am a professional software developer I'd like to step in here and talk about the issue of stability and buggy code. Dark, is absolutely right that the first draft and sometimes even updated versions of a piece of software will contain bugs and errors because it is difficult to create error free code for a professional developer such as myself let alone a new coder. If it is someone's very first project you can expect it to have a few bugs here and there, and rather than being extremely critical people just need to be considerate and provide feedback in a positive manner that lets the developer know what is wrong and by reporting these bugs over time they'll get fixed.

Buggy code does not mean the person is stupid, incompetent, or an idiot. Even professionals make mistakes, and when they do they hopefully correct the problem as soon as possible.  For a new developer mistakes may be more common because they are unfamiliar with the programming language, probably unfamiliar with certain programming logic, and are new to complex ideas. Learning to create something in BGT isn't simple let alone taking on C/C++ so I think people need to give our new developers a break. big_smile

For example, I've been working on a simple text adventure, written in C++, as a side project for fun and last night when I compiled it the debugger showed 102 errors. Anyone want to guess what they were?

Most of them were typos like instead of SpeakMessage I typed Speak Message and that extra space between was flagged as an error by the compiler. In another case I forgot to add a left paren before the beginning of a function parameter and ther compiler flagged that to. It isn't I don't know what I am doing, I certainly do, but when typing code at 40 to 60 words a minute it is easy to make a few typos here and there that need to be corrected manually by hand after the fact. Its this common problem most non-programmers never see because developers tend not to talk about every single mistake, typo, or error they make when creating their games before the public even knows it exists. Bugs, errors, etc are very common and by working with the dev to help solve them it goes further than putting them down or calling their game crap.

Sincerely,
Thomas Ward
USA Games Interactive
http://www.usagamesinteractive.com

2012-01-04 21:07:02

Tward, I have to agree. The little project I put up  and talked about on this form had problems that I needed to go back and fix before it would even compile. Of course there is also all the planning that goes into game creation. I know my first project that I'm sharing with the form is nothing but a beginner's project. Just something that I wrote in about two days if even that. I know it isn't the best out there. Neither will it be my best. So far the main complaint I received was that I put it up on sendspace. I'm supprized that noone complained about the size of it yet. LOL. Code takes a while to write and debug. The use of bgt helps speed things along for me, but if people do nothing but complain then I may change my mind about even concetoring writing a game. I haven't recieved alot of complaints yet, but...

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
DropBox Referral

2012-01-04 22:44:08

So far I agreed with this topic as a whole. As for the mouse loosing focus I tried to track that problem down, but it appears to not be a problem within my code. I have took some classes on C++ witch made bgt pretty easy for me to understand. This may be why my code is for the most part bug free. Anyway, Thanks to dark for bringing this topic up before ttaking action. Hate seing all the pounding about bugs instead of nicely pointing them out with all the info that can be provided.

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
DropBox Referral

2012-01-04 23:11:58

Well said Dark. I can't agree more on all what you've said.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
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2012-01-04 23:50:13

Moderation!

sid, this is precisely the sort of behaviour I was warning against.

If a person is rude or insulting to you, report them, and let myself and the mods deal with it. If someone robs your house that doesn't give you the right to go and steal from them, indeed you'd be just as culpable.

I have specifically given a general warning here to avoid just the sort of angry responses that you created with your accusations above.

As I said in the gaming zone topic, anymore shenanigans from anyone! and people will start being punished no matter who! they are.

this is getting ridiculous.

@Tward, I think people forget about bugs and coding far too easily, also sinse we do have the facility to allow posting of practice games, people should recognize that as an intention and not start overly cryticizing.

Frankly Bladestorm has the right of it here. If you've not coded anything yourself, be careful with your accusations, and if you have, be understanding of the efforts of others.

This isn't to say applaud everything and don't mention things which can be improved, just do it politely!

Really I would think this comes under the heading of elementary considderation for others that I'd expect any eight year old to know.

@Cw, odd your getting sendspace complaints, i always use ss myself, and indeed have had no complaints about posting my game reviews on there.

So long as it's not a stupidly complex service like mediafire with a ridiculous page layout, I don't see the file sharing service making too much difference really.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2012-01-05 00:35:44

First of all, I'd like to say I agree with what everyone else said.
I can certainly understand where the SS complaints come from, however. If you don't have a premium account,you're forced to download files with random pop ups in your face, throttled speeds, etc. it's only because I'm running the Addblock addon that it's half bearable.
If you know the blind mice mart movie vault, they host their files on sendspace. It's perfect for them, since they have a premium account, so the files stay up for ever, they can do mass uploads with the SS app, etc.
f you're downloading and have a premium account, the same applies. You just queue the files up in the wizard and let 'er rip, and with a decent connection the 80-100 MB movies are done in no time.
If you're not a paid member... Yeah. It can take up to an hour for a file to download, you also have a gig per day limit, and the previously mentioned ads.
This is why I really like dropbox. Put a file in public, and it's a direct link, with no throttling or anything. For free users the files have a 10GB bandwidth limit, which can be a problem, but for small files it's fine. And if you upgrade your account (9 99 a month for 50 gigs, 19 99 for 100), that limit's lifted. And you can share folders with others to co-op on projects, and there are iPhone, android, etc apps giving you access to upload and download the files in a native interface.
What I said about sendspace is actually the case with all free FileHosts, some are more brutal than others. Requiring you to wait, do captchas, etc.
So, enough ramblage from me... Going to Sweden tomorrow, a long trip, so I probably should go sleep now.
smile

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2012-01-05 00:47:01

Sendspace isn't really all that bad. Then again, I have a premium account, so maybe I've lost my appreciation for how annoying those ads can be. Even if I still had a free acount, I think I'd rather deal with a few ads than have to wait 3 days to download a file from Dropbox. It's just a preference though, and everyone has a right to their preference. However, no matter what file sharing service you use, as long as it isn't completely inaccessible to screen readers there should really be no complaints. Just be grateful the person took the time to upload it at all. They don't have to do that.
As for sites like Mediafire, there are actually ways to download from them using a screen reader. To my knowledge, the uploading portions of the site are flash-based, so I don't think we'll have to worry about anyone using them for the majority of their uploads. But as someone who frequents blogs and other places where Mediafire is used the majority of the time, I can honestly say that it can be done with a minimum of hassle, once you get the hang of it anyway. Other sites like Megaupload and Rapidshare are similar. Megaupload actually stopped requiring captchas before downloading every file just before Christmas. But again, the uploaders are completely inaccessible, which is a shame really.
As for this whole ridiculous flame war, I agree with what has been said already. In my humble opinion, something does need to be done about this continued adding of fuel to the fire, though. Dark, you've issued a clear, concise statement, and there should be no doubt in anyone's mind what your meaning was.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2012-01-05 12:43:36

Though i do have a premium ss account myself, I have actually tried loging out of it and downloading from the site just to check that accessing the files isn't a problem.

While there were adds, they were banner adds at the bottom of the page not popups when I tried, and th downloading link was easy to find. Yes, you may have to wait a bit for the file to come down from sendspace, but I've never personally seen this as an issue myself sinse you can just let it run in the background while your doing something else, indeed I downloaded a lot of stuff from ss myself before getting a premium account.

then of course the wizard is useful either way, it's even recently now got lables on all the buttons throughout for access which is great.

My issue with mediafire and similar sites is that they have so many damnable adds, finding the link to download the file is a pain in the kneck, especially when it's a jpg with a hugely long address.

I've done it, but it's certainly far more of a pain than most services.

Myself I'd say sendspace and dropbox are about equal with access, with rapidshare about one step down.

there are then some others like goldfile and megaupload which are a litle more tricky but possible provided you find the right jpg to click on and find the counter that says when you can download the file, but mediafire, along with hotfile are from what I've gathered the worst by a long way.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2012-01-05 12:54:50

Hello,
Oddly enough, what I have noticed recently is that people take practice games too seriously, expecting that they are professional, high quality games meeting their standards.
Dark, do you think it would be reasonable to create a new forum for all these small games? Imho this could also reduce the clutter in the general topic.

Rob

----------
Robjoy, AKA Erion
Visit my site for all the things I do and to contact me.
You can also stop by for a slice of Pi

2012-01-05 16:07:36

I don't like send space because of the file limit. And if the limit expires, the files still stay in the program, and they send the warning to your e-mail, and I don't check the e-mails much. And you are having to reupload the file after a surtain time.

I post sounds I record to freesound. Click here to visit my freesound page
I usually post game recordings to anyaudio. Click here to visit my anyaudio page

2012-01-05 16:31:46

@burak, I think the expiration thing only happens with a free account. If you get a premium account everything is up perminatnly and you can have up to 100 gb of space.

@Rob, that isn't a bad idea, having a forum for practice games and code examples. My only concern would be people distinguishing what is or is not a practice game or is or is not a beata, especially with some devs who have random ideas for betas or part finish projects that they just want a bit of in put about, but which aren't intended for a ful scale public release.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2012-01-05 17:05:27

@Dark: Good point. I think the moderator team would require some extra work, which, as we discussed on and off, I could help out with.
Personally, I think we would need guidelines as to what the community regards as a full fledged audio game. After this, every game written as an experiment, or a practice (where I would not include betas or test releases), would be moved to the practice games thread. Once a game reaches a certain maturity, people could vote if it should be added to the database.
This way, people would always know whether a certain game is mature enough for their taste, and those who wish to test games and help beginner developers could easily do so as well.

Rob

----------
Robjoy, AKA Erion
Visit my site for all the things I do and to contact me.
You can also stop by for a slice of Pi

2012-01-05 18:08:40

Hi,
I can imagine people placing games on that forum, and the rest of the communty just ignoring t hem. I've seen that happen.

Best Regards,
Hayden

2012-01-05 18:21:37

Hello,
Another good point. I believe though that those of us who like aspiring developers will always try to help out. Those who would ignore the forum are probably doing so now, with the separate threads. Either that, or posting one-liners which are 99% negative.
Well, it's just a suggestion to consider and I, still, am not planning to be a dictator smile

Rob

----------
Robjoy, AKA Erion
Visit my site for all the things I do and to contact me.
You can also stop by for a slice of Pi

2012-01-05 18:22:37

I agree with haydin on that one. I could see people thinking, a practice game, who cares.

2012-01-05 19:06:04

I think Robjoy has a good point; the people that wouldn't care probably don't have anything useful to say as it is now, so the net result would probably be more positive.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2012-01-05 19:37:11

I agree with Dark that probably the trickiest part would be drawing the line between finished games, betas, or pieces of games just seeking some feed back.  Usually this would be easy to decide, but the problem will be when the developer of the program does not agree with how the moderators decide.  Sooner or later we will have someone's obvious practice game put into the new area and the developer will be both insulted and angry about it.

I think Dark was actually referring to me as one of the devs who post random ideas as betas, hehe.  If we adopt this system, I'll do my best to follow the new format and I pledge to never be offended by the mods' choice to move my posts or to not move them.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
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2012-01-05 20:19:25

So i guess the question is, is a forum change in order? Will the behavior issues talked about earlyer and on other threads require a forum change? Will developers just post there games as they usually do? Or will we devide the forum up so that practice games and baytas will have there own section. I think the comunity is evolving and quite a bit different than it was even a year agoe and around the time i myself registered.

2012-01-05 20:49:25

Hi.
I really like the idea on having an extra room for practicing and beta games. I would use that if I ever make something playable, and I'll use it to have a lot of fun.Regarding if a game is a beta or not: The only person who knows if a game is in beta or not is the developer itself. If the developer says it's a finished game, well, it's finished regarding how many bugs it might have. If a developer makes a game which is full of bugs and he won't do anything about it, well, people wouldn't take him serious, so I don't think that would happen. I think people would know if games should be posted in such room or not.
Regarding people ignore these games, well, these people might miss some great games, but in the other end, that might force developers to make their games even better. Some developers are just coding for fun and others really wanna make something professional . Do you see my point? By making this beta room, we would reach all peoples needs. Comments on this is welcome. Because I say so doesn't mean that I'm right. I could be totally wrong. smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2012-01-05 22:27:11

Hi.
I personally think we don't need any additional boards on the forum. Not only is it tricky to draw a line which games are and aren't practice games, but I also agree that people will be more liable to ignoring games that could potentially be very enjoyable even in a practice/beta state. I'm of the opinion that you need a large player base to actually test your game properly so you can get the largest input. If we're separating these practice games from the finished products I think some people will skip over them.
I can see what people mean when they say that those who will ignore them usually only have negative things to say, but that isn't necessarily true. I don't even think it's bad as long as you put it into the right words and encourage the developer to continue improving their game.