2011-05-18 00:38:46

I've stuck this in the offtopic room just because it's not strictly game related.

I went to Aprones audiogames page

Glad to see there is a webpage on these, I'll certainly add it to the entries of the game pages in the database (I'll be writing one for Lunimals soon).

just one question though. Why are all the links written out as full addresses, for instance www.kaldobsky.com/audiogames/ColorWatcher.zip?

This might be a litle picky, but personally I always find full addresses with http etc far more of a pain when reading the page with a screen reader, especially if there are multiple entries and I have to sit through Hal saying http w w w etc.

Any chance basic link tags could be added to these? sorry for being picky, but it just makes reading pages much easier either when tabbing betwene links to instantly find a download link, or when banging on document read to wiz through the hole thing.

This is why i always try to do links with obvious names in either the news post or in the database entries, ---- though I will freely admit I've sometimes skipped the bb code for links when I'm just posting a quick link in a topic.

As I said, appologies for being so picky, it's just a matter of quicker reading with a screen reader.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-05-18 00:52:49

I liked your suggestion Dark, and I've shortened those link names.  I'm new to the bb codes for links, do you have an example I could take a look at?

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-05-18 01:08:24

Forgive me if i'm wrong, but that's a php thing, i think, you have to add a link discription, i  believe!

2011-05-18 01:21:28

Hi.

That's much more logical and easier to read, thanks for fixing those.

the bb code is pretty similar to the usual html link tags.

left brackit url equals www.audiogames.net right brackit the audiogames.net site left brackit slash url right brackit.

I can't put the actual punctuation in with spaces to show you, sinse the forum reads it as improperly written bb code and won't let me post, but hopefully this makes sense.

You can see a list of all the bb code tags with the bbcode link, though generally I only tend to use the one for posting urls myself, sinse obviously when your using a screen reader formatting or text colours aren't really a serious concern, and I never want to write E-mail addresses with direct mailto links in case they end up as spam bot fodder.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-05-18 01:21:33

Hello, Aprone,

With the BB codes, you name your links via the following sintax (please use the brackets instead of the braces):

{url=http://example.com/}put the name here{/url}

Hope this helps.

Standing by the window, eyes upon the moon,
Hoping that the memory will leave her spirit soon.

2011-05-18 01:23:28

A nice bracig idea there, ---- ha ha.

Seriously, good thought sinse I couldn't think of another way of explaining.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-05-18 02:04:10

Thanks for the tips.  I've made some changes, and hopefully I did it right.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-05-18 14:39:39

Hi,
Just a few things I've found. Firstly, your heading structure is a bit interesting.
You have a level 3, a level 4, a level 5, and then a level 6, then the rest of your games are just out there; which makes them very difficult to find. Just a suggestion, but I'd just make everything a level 1 heading and go from there.

Best Regards,
Hayden

2011-05-18 17:21:08

Hmmm, I didn't notice that, but then again I tend to ignore headings anyway, and navigate by paragraphs or by pressing tab.

I always thought that headings were primarily distinguished by size, which is why in the audiogames.net database pages I always use a heading 2 for an additional resources section, sinse while it needs some distinguishing, I wouldn't think it needs to be as large a heading as the start of the page.

For me, I class headings in the "well I can have Hal tell me if it's important but mostly don't really care" catagory, along with stuff like bold or underlined.

so long as there is the name or title of a section or whatever, I don't tend to mind really, though I freely admit I always care more about the text than the presentation anyway.

the one exception of course are tables, sinse having a table properly formatted can let me use Hal's various functions to read cell, read row, read top of column etc, which is handy when pulling information out.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-05-18 18:30:46

Jaws and NVDA can navigate pretty quickly by headings (something that makes me like pun BB). With the games page, though, since each game has links at the end, it's just as easy to use those to navigate.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2011-05-18 19:12:52

I'll have to go back to my html and figure out the headings you guys are referring to.  I had never made a page accessible, but I remembered noticing that the HTML on some other accessible pages included "bracket h" message, and "bracket /h bracket" around what seemed to be the major bullet points.  I didn't really know what they were intended to do, but I copied the technique (or so I thought) because I assumed they had a purpose.  I had never noticed them on mainstream pages before.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-05-18 19:50:03

There are a lot of html formatting things I didn't notice until Jaws 5, headings and blockquotes among them. The more I look at CSS, the more I wonder how meaningful any of this stuff is, but some tags make navigation easier, and pretty layouts seem to encourage sighted visiters, so I guess they're worth paying some attention to sometimes. smile

... Still, I haven't gotten around to that CSS-based redesign of my website. Using CSS with low vision is just annoying.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2011-05-18 20:10:13

Hi,
Yeah...I on't think so. Those "pretty layouts" are generally absolutely horrible to navigate, from my experience.

Best Regards,
Hayden

2011-05-18 20:32:09

Oh, I totally agree. I probably should have put "pretty layout" in quotes. ^^
I certainly don't intend to design any webpages that would be annoying for us to navigate.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2011-05-19 05:45:08

Hello.
I just whent and had a look at your webpage.
until loon animals there are headings,after that there are none. so like you have done for the book of gold,loon animals and such,make such headings for the clock and other things as well. although its not very importent,but since rest of the page has them for each and every game,why not have them for the softwhere's as well.
Grryf.

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
Follow me on twitter

2011-05-19 09:22:18

Thanks for that tip grryfindore.  I couldn't figure out why the headers only worked up until lunimals since I thought I'd put them all the way down the list.  I checked online and found out I misunderstood how the headers worked.  Now that I know how the header levels work, I think I've fixed my page.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2011-05-19 23:53:16

Hi.

well hal can navigate to the hedding, it's just I don't tend to bother, I prefer to use either the paragraph thing, orif the page is particularly large and I need something from further down just use the instant find text feature.

I must confess I rarely pay attention to page layout much because of this, unless it is all flash controls or specifically designed items which cause problems, indeed, one of my favourite graphical game websites uses a well put together css but is quite navigatable with Hal.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-05-20 01:00:09

Hi,
Paragraphs can bea real ain since people don't always use the right formatting and you might just end up in the same game section. Although, that find feature is certainly nice.

Best Regards,
Hayden

2011-05-20 23:26:13

Well haiden, paragraphs usually move me somewhere, or at worst only down a couple of lines in which case I'll just use links or similar navaids on the page itself.

I think this is actually one of the main differences betwene the way hal and Jaws handle webpages, sinse Hal works with the formatting already there and gives you keys to skip around it, eg go to next button, go to eddit area etc (very handy in filling in web forms), where as I believe jaws reformats the hole thing based on underlying html tags, which might explain the issue with css forms.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-05-21 03:58:29

Hi Dark,
Um, JAWS has, and has always had, keystrokes to move you from form field to form field, button to button, edit box to edit box, etc etc. As for paragraphs, I guess that's just a preference thing.

Best Regards,
Hayden

2011-05-21 10:42:30

I wouldn't say always. Before Jaws4 there weren't any of those html quick navigation keys, or the virtual viewer. There was a keystroke for jumping to forms or to non-link blocks of text, but they were less reliable than their post jaws4 counterparts.

... Yeah, my other laptop is running jaws 3.7. Even if I wanted to upgrade, I imagine doing so would make the thing explode. ^_^

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2011-05-21 15:20:37

I know jaws has the nav keys, but I also know jaws does it's own thing with redisplaying and reformatting web pages as well which Hal doesn't, hence why i wondered if there was an issue with controls etc.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-05-22 09:26:53

Hi Dar,
The only issue is that each control is, of course, placed on its own line.

Best Regards,
Hayden

2011-05-22 13:36:47

that does seem a litle odd.

hal can go down each control individually in columns (one reason it can handle something like smugglers 4 so well), but equally can read the controls as part of standard text as well if needed, which is very handy when navigation info and page content are mixed up.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2011-05-22 22:28:43

Hi,
UI believe JAWS have a mode you can set it to that does not reformat the page.
I haven't so far had use of it, so Im not sure how well it works or doesn't work.

Best Regards,
Hayden