2022-03-20 07:50:27

Hi, I don't know what I am doing wrong, but the Linux screen reader is just not working for me.
I don't really like Mac OS, and some things about Windows drive me crazy. So I thought I would give Linux a try. Running in a VM first though, because I am just a very beginner. I was looking at good Linux distros for the blind earlier, and decided on mint because it was main stream, free, and not as popular and over loaded with random stuff as Ubuntu, but still pritty user friendly.
I got it installed, and turned on the screen reader. But, that's when every thing went wrong. I can hear the speach, the desktop reads just fine, but when I hit the windows key, called the super key, it says minu, but it will not read the thing! I tried tabing, using the arrow keys, shift tabing, and randomly moving my finger hopelessly around the trackpad, and still nothing. Shurly the start menu is accessible, right? People use Linux enough that it just, have to be.
Then I thought, "Oh wait, maybee there is a setting I have to change." So I got a family member to kind of figure out where settings might be, and even find the accessibility option. Then I tried to navigate. I could use left and right erow to navigate through the catigories, EG vition, keyboard, mouse, hearing, but pressed enter and nothing happened! Tab read nothing, up and down erow did nothing! I then used OCR from another device of mine, and it could see options. They were actually there and the screen reader could not read them!
I tried other menus, and same thing! I am using the built in screen reader, Orca, I think it's called, and I just don't understand.
What am I doing wrong? Can I have help?
PS. I am a native english speaker, but due to a disibility struggle greatly with spelling. I am so sorry, am trying my best. Also, grabbed the nearist device I had to right this, so I am righting this on an iphone with braille screen input. This is probably not helping.
I know it's probably just something I am missing, but help would be greatly appreciated.
From: Grace.

2022-03-20 10:14:51

the issues you're getting are...well...interesting. In order to diagnose them though, here are some questions:
1. What virtual machine program are you using? I've seen instances where orca would have issues speaking stuff because of virtualbox, or the debian installer just crashing after you select a language, again, some kind of virtualbox weirdness.
2. What desktop environment did your image have? Make sure to pick up linux mint mate, as the mate desktop is the most accessible for beginners. I think you picked up cineman or something, that's not accessible. KDE plasma is a bit more accessible though, but still, if you didn't get the ubuntu mate one, redownload and attempt the installation again.

2022-03-20 12:44:57

Heya @Grace

That's my first thought too. Did you get Mint Mate or just Mint?

The default Mint comes with Cinnamon as a desktop which doesn't really work with Orca. I'd suggest either Mint Mate or, yes, Zorin. Both of which work far, far better and are insanely beginner friendly too. Mint Mate however is the one I'd suggest since you already grabbed Mint.

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2022-03-20 16:17:07

Zorin OS is garbage from my initial test. I downloaded the Lite version because I despise! Gnome, but I can't do anything with it. I had to hit Alt+F2 then type Orca because the shortcut didn't work, and now it won't read anything when I tab around or use Orca review. I guess this is another junk distro. It looks like the best one is still Mint Mate.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2022-03-20 16:22:13

That's your problem, Chris. You downloaded Zorin Light

You need regular Zorin, not the XFCE version at all. Orca doesn't work with XFCE without tweaking and tuning at all. Even on my Arch box it needs finessing to get to work

So, @1, Forget Zorin Light. You want the regular Zorin, it's a not garbage desktop

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2022-03-20 16:23:56

Have fun using Gnome. As for me, I'll continue using Mint Mate, as it's given me the least trouble out of everything I've tried. Arch is not newbie friendly at all and even though I consider myself to be an intermediate to advanced computer user, it gives me a headache.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2022-03-20 16:53:06 (edited by JaceK 2022-03-20 16:54:56)

The issue with Mate however is that you'll run into it freezing up on exiting anything Chromium based, I've run into that on Solus, Mint, Ubuntu Mate, and even when I installed Mate on my Arch box as a test however, or when Chrome/Chromium/Brave/etc crash it breaks Orca and you need to bring up a window to get focus back every single time, you need to hit Orca then F2 to bring up the shortcuts list. I don't have that issue in Gnome, Budgie, ratpoison, LXDE, LXQT (yes the last two are actually accessible), XFCE (when I can be bothered to use it) and so forth. It's seemingly a Mate specific issue and one that's gone unsolved for several versions which put me off mate entirely due to it and the popularity of Chromium apps. And before you say 'oh you got a bad package'. No. I didn't. I got a valid download, I am not using some shady PPA or third party hack job, no. I'm using the official sources and it happens every single time a Chromium app is closed. So...

Yes, I've raise this on the list and I'm not sure what's happend with it, but it only ever happens on Mate however. Zorin have done some great work as far as making their desktop useable.

It's not really vanilla Gnome. It's the best bits of Gnome, with the best bits of Mate, like an actual app menu that makes sense, there's no giant memory hogging stuf, and, by the way, there'it's a more familiar desktop to Windows users. XFCE. I get where they are going with it, but....I personally don't click with it at all. I mean, I like what XFCE offers. It's just all put together in a really, really, obscure and inefficient way really.

EDIT: As for your Arch point.

With archinstall that's not true now. Ethin pointed out in another topic archinstall is very much useable and it offers up the ability to install a desktop for you when you run through it. So....it removes a lot of the hassle about configuring/setting up Arch and makes it easier to get up and going. Not really newbie friendly but certainly not this black art mystery it was before. And unlike Jenux....archinstall actually works out of the box and actually knows what it is doing as well

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2022-03-20 17:39:16

Citimen in VM ware. I tried Mait, but it caused my whole computer to crash after it gave a bunch of network errors and spat out a bunch of numbers. Someone said it was a VM ware problem, so I might try Virtual Box. For the chrome apps, I'll just leave them open untill I restart.

2022-03-20 17:44:19 (edited by JaceK 2022-03-20 17:45:28)

Unfortunately, Grace that'll eat up a lot of memory though due to Chromium apps being open and memory hogs though. Plus, Chromium apps like too, in my experience, crash without warning. So you couldd very well be working away and suddenly your desktop locks up because that Chromium app you left open crashed and took Orca's focus with it. That's been my experience of Chromium apps on Mate. IIRC, I believe but don't quote me on this, Ethin's run into similar issues at least once. Watch, he'll fly on in here and explain why Gnome isn't that bad. Objectively...it's not a bad desktop. It's just...Gnome is meh. I'll use it if I absolutely have to, and Mate, Budgie, et al, they all use Gnome's components under the hood anyhow

@Grace:

What do you want to do with Linux, be a Windows replacement? I'd still suggest you try Zorin Core in a VM, when I ran it on a VM it ran pretty well and didn't break that badly. If I can get your system specs that may help with what distros to go for and what to avoid

EDIT: And yes. Chromium apps and Chrome are the same thing. Chrome is built on top of Chromium.

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2022-03-20 17:48:16

I too would be just trying to learn Linux in a VM, although I'd use Fusion on Windows because I'm already familiar with it, thus taking that part of the learning curve away. Mint Mate sounded like the perfect thing for me until I read that last post about Orca crashing when Chromium Apps are closed. That's a dead showstopper for me, so the question still remains...Are there any one of these hundreds of distros that is GUI-based and allow you to get speech relatively easily?

My opinions are my own. I try not to state them as facts and if I'm not sure about something, I do whatever research I can. I feel everyone should consider doing the same.

2022-03-20 17:48:30

I think it's worth pointing out that if your objection to Windows and Mac is accessibility related, you will quickly discover that Linux is worse especially if you're not an extremely technical user.

I can't help solve the issue but this feels like you're doing some sort of screen reader ragequit. Suffice it to say Linux is bad enough that BGT Lover is writing a screen reader to try to replace Orca.   Obviously it works for some people but if your issue is entirely screen reader related you're probably not making the best choice.  Pretty much no one disputes that Orca is in many ways the worst desktop screen reader.

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2022-03-20 17:49:06

The whole mate freezing thing put me off as well, so I just moved to ratpoison and that was that. The only issue I have with it though, is that copying and pasting doesn't work anywhere, and googling hasn't got me a solution. As for Orca not reading stuff, I can highly recommend you take a look at flat review. It's Orca's take on NVDA's object navigation.

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2022-03-20 18:04:12 (edited by Chris 2022-03-20 18:09:55)

I just tried Zorin OS Core and it's just as bad as I remember Ubuntu being. Orca reads something that sounds like at sign exclamation and a bunch of weird numbers by default when I log in and pressing Alt+F1 which is supposed to bring up some sort of application list just says Window. Pressing the arrow keys does nothing at all or if it does, Orca isn't reading anything. Orca flat review is great when it worrks, but mostly I find it gives me useless information like panel, button, toggle not pressed, etc. At this point, I have to agree, Orca and most of these desktop environments are garbage! I keep wanting to try Linux and get disappointed every time because all these desktop environments are crap with screen readers. Even VoiceOver with all it's irritating flaws and neglect is much better than Orca. Hell, even Narrator in Windows 10 and 11 is miles better. What gives? Is it simply a matter of lack of developers working on the screen reader?

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2022-03-20 18:05:48

Copy/pasting where?

IIRC, it's a triple click in the terminal to start then move flat review, then end the selection and copy/paste?

We need StormDragon in here to anser that one for certain, I've got it to work but not really tried copy/pasting out of a terminal. I usually just pipe things to a text file and copy/paste from there

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2022-03-20 18:14:29 (edited by JaceK 2022-03-20 18:15:37)

'11:

It's also very, very much desktop dependant and distro dependent though. If someone came out with another DE for Windows or Mac you'd run into Narrator or NVDA or Jaws having issues with it though just as Orca struggles with the different DE out there for Linux however. But to say Orca is unuseable is a flat out lie. That's like going oh Narrator is unuseable. Both are flatly untrue and absolutely a lie.

For example, my heavily minimal Ratpoison setup is 99.8% accessible once set up though. There is no such thing as a 100% accessible desktop. Lemme list the popular ones and what's lacking:

acking

Budgie: No accessible run dialog and no way to quickly get back to the desktop, as well as no way (that I ound) to add a key command to reset Orca when it keels over, plus it's moving away from Gnome
Cinnamon: The last i checked this had allegedly ripped out the ATK support, but I've not heard an update for that in literal years
Gnome: The settings center is, well, it's cumbersome to use, Gnome has no traditional apps menu instead relying on a Win8 esque here's all your apps, , now arrow through and hit enter. Side note: Zorin solves this in a hilariously spectacular way by making Gnome3 tolerable to use and actually more like a desktop computer should be.
KDE: QT's ATK support is all over the place and things refuse to read with Orca
Mate: Freezes when Chromium apps are closed and has a nasty tendancy to trip up users who are unaware of that bug, that's gone unfixed for at least one whole version
LXDE/LXQT (yes I'm grouping those together...): No default Orca support, you need to futz around in files to get it to work. However once it works it is fairly decent but lacks Orca reading things such as the clock or tray icons, plus setting up new hotkeys is trial and error. I ended up with shift tab as my Orca reset key for a few minutes there

EDIT: What I'm saying is, Orca's built off the Gnome stack. It's best work is with Gnome as a desktop or things that don't stray too far or try to get clever or cute with the GTK or QT things when making up a desktop, else Orca has no idea what to even do with them

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2022-03-20 18:42:03 (edited by Chris 2022-03-20 18:43:41)

Orca was designed to work with Gnome? Hmmm, that's weird, because I find Gnome to be extremely unintuitive. Hearing window and then nothing else when I arrow isn't what I'd call intuitive. Opening settings dialogs and hearing panel or button isn't helpful either. I'll have to give Rat Poison a try, but it seems a little weird. Is it more for terminal use? I don't mind the terminal, but I'd still like to be able to quickly switch between running applications, access a list of all installed applications, and access status information such as Wi-Fi and volume.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2022-03-20 18:49:46 (edited by JaceK 2022-03-20 18:51:03)

Rattpoiosn is ike a minimal Gnome without the panle or button stufff.

Let's say I log in and want to bring up Firefox. I hit my Ratpoison key plus W and that launches Firefox. if I want to look through my app list I can hit alt F1 and start typing. If I want a terminal, Ratpoison key  and C.

The one quirk with Ratpoison is you don't have Orca focus unless you got a window open, but it's also got the upside of nothing tripping Orca up with settings dialogs. It's bare bones but it is extremely, extremely workable once you get used to it. My way of doing things can be summed up as follows

1. Log n and start up X

2. Open up a terminal so I can keep it open all the time

3. Go through my apps list while updates are checked for

4. Open up Firefox with Ratpoison+W
5. Hit Ratpoison+0 to get back to my terminal and check for updates. While they download and install. Ratpoison+1 to flip right back to Firefox and keep working away in that. Ratpoison+' brings up a list of open windows so you can quickly swap between them

Go from there. Compared to Gnome, there's no fighting with the WM

To get it going on Mint Mate...I'm not 100% sure, but install Ratpoison and clone this repo

https://git.2mb.codes/~StormDragon2976/Strychnine and then run ./setup.sh. Once you've done that log out and on your login screen select Ratpoison from the desktop selection and you should be good to go

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2022-03-20 19:23:51

@Camlorn, that was actually very helpful, and it sounds like from subsequent posts that if I want to mess with this at all, RatPoison and cloaning StormDragon's Repo would be the way to go, but I think I'll stay awaye and keep tabs on that Screen Reader @BGTLover is writing.

My opinions are my own. I try not to state them as facts and if I'm not sure about something, I do whatever research I can. I feel everyone should consider doing the same.

2022-03-20 19:28:13

To be fair, if you get a Pi and use Stormux it can set Ratpoison up ready to go for you. I honestly wish more distros do that out of the box tbh.

No, ratpoison isn't the only way to go. It's what works for me however and Destructotron, Ethin uses Gnome, Chris uses Mate, so use whatever DE works for you. I just happen to work best with Ratpoison and not having to argue with the Mate team's ideas

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2022-03-20 20:28:43

I got mint Mate to work. I just have 3 small problems and Googling didn't help. My first problem sounds like a joke, but I need to access the screen reader opos, and they should it was incert plus some other key. Only problem is that my computer doesn't have an insert key, and I don't want to buy an external keyboard just for the screen reader settings in a Linux VM. What do I do?
The second problem is Espeak. How do I install better sounding voices?
The third problem is small, and I can work around it, but I have a little bit of vition in my right eye and was wondering if I could change the desktop background. If so, how?

2022-03-20 20:41:11

To solve your issues...

1. Type orca -s in a terminal or the alt+FF2 box and hit enter to bring up the settings. Your options are desktop or laptop layout, I personally go with laptop layout because it suits me more but YMMV on that

2. I don't recall what voices Mate/Ubuntu repos have but you can buy Voxin or search in the Mint repos for synths however
3. It should be under appearance or something like that however?

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2022-03-20 20:56:01

@14, it's a global issue. Nano/vim copy and paste isn't working, I can't copy stuff from firefox and paste it into terminal or even into leafpad or any other editor. I personally wouldn't recommend typing orca -s in a terminal, since that locks up your terminal and if you were to close it, boom goes your orca unless you press windows/super alt S, wait 5 seconds, and press it again to turn orca back on.

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2022-03-20 20:58:13

Oh right, for Firefox

Hit F7 and turn on carat browsing to select/copy/paste
For Vim, you want to google it. I don't copy/paste from Vim tbh so can't help you there on that one, but I've had no issues with orca -s however but YMMV on that?

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2022-03-20 22:43:29

Ok so, gonna chime in here to say some stuff
first, about my screenreader, as I said times before, it won't be able to do much on its own, replacing orca isn't gonna solve anything long term, honestly, not that it would be particularly hard to do considering the state of orca nowadays.
The reason linux desktops aren't very accessible isn't necesarily orca, though its very low amount of features isn't contributing much to things becoming better. What's actually the guts of the problem is, in a way, precisely the diversity of which all of us linuxers are proud of. How is that possible, you ask? Well, you see, most people don't know anything about accessibility, a screenreader, etc. No, seriously, go ask a particularly tec savvy user, better if they have some background in UI design, and who is not employed about accessibility, most of the time you'll get something like screenreaders, huh?
So then, unless linux desktop designers are employed to do what they're doing, most of them won't even know what the hell atspi is, how orca works, etc. In that case, naturally they won't know a thing about accessibility and interfacing with the existing linux a11y stack. As we know, that eventually leads to a very slick and visually appealing desktop, but with no a11y integration, the point where we are now.
Why is mate and such stuff accessible? Well, the designers of gnome2 either only used gtk controlls which are fully compliant with atspi, or actually knew of atspi and made their controlls respond to the right dbus events and give the proper information when asked. Whichever way it is, they are the reason we can use linux in the first place, they and sun when that was a thing.
Gradually though, as newer desktops came to happen, people begun to forget more and more about accessibility, wayland didn't even have support integrated, actually some security measures in there are making things difficult, see touchscreen stuff.
Now, let's zoom back to microsoft, apple and their respective monopolies, since the lack of customisation we hate ironically benefits us the most on there. Because both ms and apple own the OS foundation, the a11y stack, the os ui and native controlls, we are guaranteed to have accessibility and nice integrations between the screenreader aka a11y API consumer, the desktop itself, the apps that come with the system or those made with native system controlls, the configuration and system settings layer, etc, so all in one solutions can be beneficial in some cases, only if you maybe probably squint at it sidewise. Another example of where this is true is android. Basically, stock android is as accessible as it can get, the more customisations a manufacturer makes, the more a11y issues could appear because stuff isn't designed properly. For example, ever used a huawei device? Well, the launcher isn't the most accessible there is, since one can't blindly organise apps in folders, arrange them in different places on the screen, etc. Things can definitely be worse though, I heard soni phones have some a11y issues on the lockscreen and the launcher both, so I consider my self lucky. Yes you can change the launcher and all that, you can go even further with root, but it's hard for someone new to this to even know what is a launcher and how to make it accessible. So yeah, this is the challenge of the millenium for us as a community, how can we nullify this tradeoff between walled in ecosystem and accessible vs open and free but a big depends on accessibility?
All that being said, you may ask, why can such a11y be possible if made by apple or ms, yet foss people struggle or don't care? Well, if the ada wouldn't exist, we won't have even that and maybe everything would be like linux, but for now, they're legally forced to provide this level of accessibility at least in the US, and since they aren't gonna pull a soni because no resources or something, all the world is gonna enjoy it.
So yeah, I will do my best with odilia screenreader, I'll add as many features as I can think up as long as I'm not limited by the current a11y api for now, I'll certainly add addons and will try to see what can be done about touchscreen, controller and other kinds of input maybe through some kernel trickery, but nothing I will do could magically solve the linux accessibility issues over night, unless I make a desktop environment to go with the screenreader, at which point I'm not better than microsoft, apple or all those people we foss people hate or grudgingly accept, depends who you ask.
To reiterate, a solid, wickid fast and feature packed linux screenreader is only the first step, to actually go further I hope that the sr would have enough innovations and improvements that other people, namely desktop developers, would be willing to consider accessibility and, if nothing else, accept pull requests related to that. Basically, I'm trying to rase atspi and a11y awareness among the right people by making a very powerful and impressive program that leverages the stack to provide a much better user experience, possibly including some desktop specific hacks or overlays as addons that make stuff more accessible, to show these people, hey it can be done, now it's your turn to work with us.
If you want to find more about the odilia screenreader, either google it because we are on there as well, or go to the homepage of the odilia website. Yeah, indeed we bought a domain for who's wondering where's the fancy name coming from, in anticipation of other things possibly happening on odilia.app subdomains.
@20, I'm glad linux mint mate works for you, hope you like it, it's the most accessible desktop to date. So now, to your issues
1. Go to a terminal, then type orca -s -r &
2. Depends what kind of voices you want, you can buy voxin if you want vocaliser, don't wory, it's affoardable. If you want cheeper/free stuff, try rhvoice or flite. For flite, sudo apt install flite speech-dispatcher-flite should do the work pretty nicely, it's up to you where you find better flite voices and where you put them.
3: I'm not even one bit sighted, so I dk if this does the right thing or not, but take this

2022-03-21 00:54:28

hey bgt. So when you do your end of the bargin, then can you somehow contact gnome or mate or xfce or whatever to support your app and open up to the atspi api?

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