2021-04-11 05:59:22 (edited by gerech 2021-04-11 06:07:34)

Hi.
I'm interested to get your thoughts on this. It seems to create reasonable doubt in the George Floyd Case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xstsGo5f31s Personally, if I was a part of the jury, I would acquit the officer. Because in the video, he summarizes how certain things/evidence creates resonable doubt in the case.

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2021-04-11 06:32:19

What it comes to 1 way or another is a man said he can't breathe and they did nothing to help him. He says he can't breathe so they push him on the ground and hold him down. They don't call for an ambulance and no CPR.  What they were doing too was making him more paranoid which deffently didn't help his breathing at all. They should of gave the guy his space. Called an ambulance and if possible gave CPR.

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2021-04-11 06:55:08

@2. Sure, but the officer isn't guilty of manslaughter. excessive force maybe, but not manslaughter.

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2021-04-11 07:01:13

I don't even have to watch this video in order to tell you that you're completely full of shit on this.
But I tell you what I'll do. In the interest of good faith, I'm gonna go watch it anyway, see what they say. And if I'm convinced, I'll own it. But if I'm not - and I'm about 99.8% sure I won't be - then I'm going to come back in here and start tearing stuff down. You want my opinion, you're going to get it. lol

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2021-04-11 07:08:46

@4. Sure. Before watching this video, I was all for convicting the officer. But now, I'm not sure if a conviction is the right thing to do based on the evidence presented on the video.

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2021-04-11 07:44:23

Hang on. This is gonna get rough.

I'll respond to specific points made by Ben Shapiro, but I want to point out that this dude has a history of making bad arguments in defense of pretty much whatever he wants, and that's usually a right-wing slant. That doesn't make him wrong by default, but it puts his credibility into question right from the outset. Okay, here we go.

First, Shapiro claims that Floyd was shouting "I can't breathe!" before being pinned by several officers on the ground. He claims that this exonerates the officers...except it doesn't. Either George Floyd was lying when he said that, and panicking (listen to that clip, he sounds pretty freaked out to me), or he was telling the truth, in which case officers had absolutely no business cuffing him and then putting him prone on a hard surface, subsequently squashing him against the pavement for roughly nine minutes. Either way, it doesn't actually touch what Shauvin and other officers did. It merely points out that Floyd may have been lying/panicking/freaking out before being pinned. And I hope I also don't have to explain that even if Mr. Floyd may have been fully capable of breathing when he said he wasn't while in the squad car, his later repetition of the same statement isn't false by default. Next!

Ben Shapiro attempts to say that there are multiple camera angles, and that one of them shows Mr. Shauvin's knee on Floyd's back or shoulder at times. Even if this is factual, it doesn't matter. There's another officer pinning his lower back and another pinning his legs. Floyd has absolutely no leverage. His arms are being yanked up behind him. No matter where Shauvin's knee is, these officers are conspiring to vastly constrict Mr. Floyd's chest. You know, for someone who was previously claiming he couldn't breathe, this actually makes the case against the officers worse, not better. You do not need to kneel on someone's neck to essentially shut down their ability to breather. Dr. Tobin, an expert witness for the prosecution, explains the mechanics of how we breathe. Test it yourself by putting one hand on your breastbone and the other on the side of your ribcage under your arm while breathing. You will feel two types of motion, which he refers to as "pump-handle" and "bucket-handle". By pinning George Floyd in the manner that they did, the officers were making it very difficult for Floyd to breathe.
And before you try the "he was yelling, and if you can yell you can breathe" argument, I want to point out that that logic is extremely dangerous. You can be low on oxygen while still being able to snatch shallow breaths, and while still being able to gasp and cry out...which is exactly where Floyd found himself.

I don't need to watch any more of that video, because Mr. Shapiro did exactly what I expected him to do. None of these arguments are any good. None of them have made much of a dent in any serious legal scholar's adjudication of this case. Now, I invite you to follow the bouncing ball of logic.

1. George Floyd was arrested for trying to buy cigarettes with a fake twenty-dollar bill. Just remember that in the back of your mind. Officers did all of this for twenty fucking dollars of counterfeit money. Floyd didn't draw a gun. He hadn't hurt anyone. He hadn't even threatened anyone. He was high, and he tried to pass off a fake bill. That's a crime, sure, but it doesn't merit death.
2. Officers are trained in the appropriate use of force, including where that force may and may not be applied when extenuating circumstances are present. They are, in essence, taught to use only as much force as is needed to ensure that a suspect is not a danger to themselves or to others.
3. If you handcuff someone's arms behind their back and seat them on the ground while watching over them, it is fairly difficult for that suspect to actually harm anyone. The worst they might try to do is get up...but try this as an experiment (there are gonna be a few of these, so work with me here). Sit on the floor in your living space, far enough away from any wall or furniture that you can't touch it. Put your hands behind your back so that your wrists are close together. Now try to get to your feet. You'll probably manage it, but how long did it take you? And do you think an officer standing by, someone in decent physical health, would be able to put you right back down again without effort? Yup, thought so. Let's keep going.
4. Given the relative lack of severity of Floyd's crime, he should have been handcuffed and seated in the squad car or, if that wasn't palatable to him (since he claimed he was claustrophobic), seated on the ground. This would constitute an appropriate level of force commensurate with the situation.
5. George Floyd was very agitated during the arrest, claiming he couldn't breathe and pleading over and over again with officers not to lock him up. This is indicative of two things. First, Mr. Floyd's mental state may have been impacted by substances he had taken. Second, Mr. Floyd, realizing that he was a black man in the hands of law enforcement, may have honestly felt that he had reason to be frightened for his life, which caused him to panic. Neither of these factors represents a clear and present danger to anyone -- Not Floyd, not bystanders, not the officerd, and cannot be used as an excuse for what came next.
6. Officers placed Floyd on the pavement on his stomach, wrenched his hands up behind him, then pinned his body at the shoulders, back and legs. The person pinning his upper body at several points had a knee on Floyd's neck; even if that knee was not always compressing the neck itself, it was still busy compressing Floyd's chest. Expert testimony suggests, however, that Shauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck up to ninety percent of the time. This represents an excessive use of force which, under the circumstances, all officers present had strong reason to believe was unacceptable.
7. Officers refused to reposition Mr. Floyd even while bystanders and one officer suggested placing him on his side so that he could breathe. Even if you tried to argue that everything up till this point might make some twisted, warped sort of sense in a world where the aim is to be as forceful as possible to disable a suspect - yes, even a suspect whose only crime in this instance was the use of a phony twenty - Shauvin's choice to maintain position atop Mr. Floyd represents a deliberate choice to maintain an action which was directly and demonstrably impacting his suspect's ability to breathe.
8. Another experiment for you. If you live alone, or do not live with someone you trust, try putting yourself face-down on the floor with your hands tight behind your back. Note: if you have breathing difficulties or other medical conditions which might be impacted by trying this, absolutely DO NOT DO THIS! I have tested this for myself. Lying on your stomach is pretty easy if your arms are at your sides and/or you can shift a little, but if you're lying flat on a hard surface with your chest, you might soon notice that your breath is shorter and you grow uncomfortable. This will be made worse if your arms are behind you, since belts of muscle in your chest walls and shoulders will tighten, causing your breath to shorten even further. Now, if you're safe to do this, take a moment to imagine someone resting two hundred pounds of their weight on your back, shoulders or neck, and someone else near your tailbone doing the same, and someone else on your legs, all the while your pinned, cuffed wrists are being pulled upward. If you're really, really brave and have someone you can trust with this, you can even simulate part of this for yourself. I haven't gone this far, but I know what I'll find, because I've been pinned this way in the past, albeit without actual handcuffs.
9. Now, once your experimentation is done - real-life or thought, it doesn't matter, but seriously, don't do anything stupid and don't take unnecessary risks - consider this. Mr. Shauvin knew, or should have known from his training, that George Floyd's breathing was going to be seriously impacted by his use of excessive force. He knew this for over nine minutes, but declined to change his behaviour. He has no plausible deniability here, and no defense at all that should exonerate him. Multiple law enforcement witnesses have stated that Shauvin's use of force did not follow procedure and is not approved. This was not just a heat-of-the-moment judgment call or a mistake. This was Mr. Shauvin using his power, his training and his position to literally compress Mr. Floyd's neck, shoulder, back and chest until he died.

Oh, and just to cut the fentanyl argument off at the pass:
Prosecution proved that George Floyd did not die of fentanyl overdose, since it is preceded by coma, and Floyd did not enter a coma before death. There was ample chances for Mr. Shauvin and other officers to react to George Floyd falling unconscious at around the five-minute mark; it might already have been too late, but they essentially went on kneeling on his unresponsive body for another four minutes just to be sure.

Now, go back and read this post again, please. Don't just skim for a point and try to strike. Take the whole thing in. Then come back and tell me that Ben Shapiro makes a good argument. I double-dog-dare you.

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2021-04-11 08:19:57 (edited by gerech 2021-04-11 08:21:01)

@6. Again though, the argument here is whether Mr. Shauvin directly caused mr. Floyd's death. In the video, we also see bits of testimony suggesting that asphyxia can be caused not only by someone choking you or someone's knee on your neck, but  it could also be caused by drugs in floyd's system. Mind you, I'm not saying that the officers were right in this situation. They were 100% wrong. What I'm merely suggesting is that this already creates reasonable doubt in the case. To convict you need no doubt that Mr. Shauvin is guilty of manslaughter. Its also important to note, that dr. tobin is not a pathologist. How can you analyze something medically based on a video.

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2021-04-11 11:08:53

Dr. Tobin is a pneumonologist. He has spent his entire professional life studying the lungs. This means that I will happily take his word on how exactly the body works, especially given the example I provided above. Again, if you're not medically compromised, test it for yourself; I think you will find that someone in a situation even -close to George Floyd's position is going to have a whole lot more trouble breathing. And if there's also intermittent but fairly steady pressure on or around the neck area, that's going to impact the carotid artery, which, if you're not aware, delivers blood to the brain.

Let me boil this down into an argument that you're not going to be able to reject, because you're still tap-dancing and I'm fucking tired of it.

Reasonable doubt in this case means that you believe that George Floyd would have died if officers had not intervened. It means that no actions the officers took contributed to George Floyd's death. Are you willing to state with certainty that this was the case? Because I'm not. And most rational people aren't either.


Why do I say so? Simple. The officers have been taught how to use restraint. They know at least the very basics of human anatomy (i.e., if five hundred pounds of pressure are applied on someone's handcuffed, prone body, they're going to have a whole lot of trouble getting breath). So again, the bouncing ball of logic, but this will be much quicker.
1. Excessive force was used on the suspect.
2. The use of excessive force can reasonably be expected to have been seen as excessive by those employing it, based on their standards of training.
3. The suspect was repeatedly pleading that he couldn't breathe.
4. Bystanders were pleading that the suspect couldn't breathe.
5. Other options existed to keep the suspect restrained, none of which the officers felt it necessary to take.
6. Subsequent to prolonged compromised breathing, the suspect died.

Seriously, I'm writing you a god-damned map here.

There are cases when officers use excessive force in the heat of the moment, and it's basically explained as a split-second judgment, a mistake. If this occurs, you obviously can't prove intent, because like it or not, everybody fucks up, and while we should expect law enforcement to be respectful of life and safety, nobody is perfect.
In this instance, however, you have to prove either intent to harm, or criminal negligence, and the refusal to allow George Floyd to breathe constitutes criminal negligence at the very, very least.

So no. There is no reasonable doubt here, not unless you think that the officers only sped up a process that was bound to happen later that evening anyway. And hey, if you have compelling evidence that George Floyd was knocking on heaven's door long before he tried to pass off a fake twenty in that convenience store, I urge you to point it out. But from where I'm sitting, George Floyd would have been alive today if not for the use of excessive force displayed by Derek Shauvin and others. And given that said use of force was unwarranted, sustained and goes against training, either there was intent to harm Mr. Floyd (which is hard to prove), or there was no regard given to Mr. Floyd's health and safety. You can be wrung up for third-degree murder or manslaughter on that latter explanation, by the way, especially if it's your job to ensure the safety of those you apprehend, as well as the well-being of others.

I'll just close with this:
The prosecution doesn't have to prove that Derek Shauvin is a racist, PoC-hating asshole with a grudge. The fact that he may be all of those things is immaterial. Really, all the prosecution needs to do is to prove how criminal negligence on behalf of Shauvin and his cop buddies led directly to the death of George Floyd. And despite your protestations, they're doing a very good job of it.

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2021-04-11 11:27:57 (edited by defender 2021-04-11 11:28:34)

Here's the thing.
Even if the officer didn't set out to commit murder, he ignored his training and acted with total negligence in a malicious manor.  Most police are even agreed on this.
So whether he ultimately caused the death may be debatable, and the racial motivation is going to be a hard sell without allot of solid evidence to back it up, but he almost certainly contributed majorly to it.
As far as I know, third degree murder is Minnesota's version of manslaughter.  If so, I do believe that would be appropriate here, but I wonder both how much the word murder will cause jurors to hesitate, and how much the threat of uprising will push them towards it anyway.


Anyway, Ben Shapiro is a well known shitstarter with a serious incentive to bend the truth as needed, no really, he literally makes a living by pissing one side off while validating another, so as far as I'm concerned he isn't a useful source of anything.

2021-04-11 13:40:28

Ahh, that's the guy with the "Facts dont care about your feelings", while simultaniously basing all arguments on, a. his feelings. b. The listener's feelings, or c. The Bible, spiel. He also has a history of being racist, anti LGBT, anti womens right, and generally wrong about most things, and oh so damn smug about it too. I wouldn't trust him with 5 dollars of mine and certainly not with explaining this case fairly and factually

We live on a hunk of rock and metal that circles a humdrum star that is one of 400 billion other stars that make up the Milky Way Galaxy which is one of billions of other galaxies which make up a universe which may be one of a very large number, perhaps an infinite number, of other universes. That is a perspective on human life and our culture that is well worth pondering.
Carl Sagan

2021-04-11 14:05:42

If the prosecution had to prove that Shauvin was a racist, then sure, reasonable doubt comes into it and he probably walks. But yeah...they definitely don't have to do that. Any police officer who does exactly what Shauvin and his pals did should, at a very bare minimum, be barred from ever serving in law enforcement again, and ideally should be put in jail for, say, 5-10 years, minimum, for manslaughter. They should've known better. It's just as simple as that.

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2021-04-11 14:13:10 (edited by George_Gaylord 2021-04-11 14:14:29)

A few seconds in, and I have to say, even if he was complaining about not breathing before he got on the ground and whatever, or if the drugs caused it, what steps did the police do to help him? Did they call an ambulance? Did they think throwing him on the floor and kneeing his back and kneck would help the situation? Even if you want to blame it on the drugs, isn't that by itself a charge? I mean, not helping someone while they're in need  of  medical attention, isn't that negligence? No matter how you spin this, the officers did at least one thing in that situation wrong, even if you take into account the drugs he was on. They had no right to toss him on the floor, they had no right to put 3 adult men on his back and kneck, and they should have bloody called an ambulance to try and help/

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2021-04-11 14:38:04 (edited by Lucas1 2021-04-11 14:39:22)

Yeah I have to agree that Ben Shapiro can't be considered a credible source. He certainly has a gift for speaking convincingly, he has to to gain as large a following as he has, but that does not mean that what he says is correct or should be believed without examining the case from other angles. For what it's worth, I believe the same thing about people with a heavy left-wing bias as well. Your opinion seems to have been swayed by him very easily without you actually applying critical thinking skills. Maybe you were just searching for a convincing case for this viewpoint?
I'm not saying that if you have a right-wing viewpoint that you haven't applied your critical thinking skills, but this particular case seems pretty open and closed. Even if you believe in the death penalty, or that addiction is terrible and should be legally punished or something, or that black people are more predisposed towards crime than white people, it doesn't take that much brain power to realize that this should not have been handled in the way that it was. Is it really that hard to believe that leaning on somebody's fucking neck for ten minutes would cause them to die or be permanently brain damaged? Jayde already covered how the officer was, in fact, leaning on his neck for most of the time, not his shoulder or whatever.

2021-04-11 15:29:21

I don't see how you can spin this to be anything other than what it is, criminal negligence. 9 minutes is an awfully long time to be kneeling on someone. What were they thinking he'd do, jump to his feet and bolt? I mean, watch over him yeah, but there's no reason in hell to be constricting his air way like that.

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2021-04-11 16:36:31

If you'd wanted these cops to be free of any criminal responsibility, they would have either 1. had to never put Floyd in such a position in the first place, or 2. after doing so, quickly move him to lie on his side or sit him up while keeping an eye on him. Either of those outcomes, and Mr. Floyd wouldn't even be in the news; he just would've been some random dude who passed off a fake twenty-dollar bill and got caught for it. But due to negligence, he has become one more statistic in a pretty ugly dataset of police brutality, excessive force and lack of accountability.

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2021-04-11 16:37:42

Okay, let's accept that Floid's breathing difficulties were caused by taking too many drugs. I mean in one of the videos he does say "I ate too many drugs." I'm saying this because I watched the video with my hearing aids on so I'm posatively sure that was what was said. However, even if you lean on a persons shoulder blade it's going to cause breathing problems. Let me put it like this. Imagine I caught Jayde in the middle of the street, tackled him to the ground and nelt on his shoulder blade for 9 minutes, it's obviously going to cause breathing difficulties or make the breathing difficulty already worse. Plus we need to know the type of drugs he took and how that causes breathing difficulties to even prove drugs were a factor. Also, the camera could have moved out of position at some point. Consequently, it may not have captured Shovan's knee on Floid's neck. There is also the possibility that Shovan's knee was originally on Floid's shoulder, and then it moved to his neck at some point. Last I checked Shovan was on Floid's neck for 7 minutes, and this video is meant to be 9 minutes long. So he could have been on the shoulder for 2 minutes and on the neck for 7 minutes. 7 +2 =9

2021-04-11 23:19:17

Drugs really don't even matter here. Not unless, as I said earlier, you're ready to prove that Floyd was a dead man even without police intervention.
Police claim that they had to restrain Floyd due to him "resisting arrest", and they knew/suspected he was on drugs in the first place. Again, with all that being known, restricting his breathing is even more ugly and heinous than it otherwise would be. There is simply no excuse.
Nine minutes of being pinned on the ground is not just a bad judgment call or a mistake in the heat of the moment. Nine minutes being pinned on the ground while your suspect's chest can't expand properly is, one way or another, a deliberate, calculated act. Maybe there was no specific intent to end Floyd's life, but there was clearly no regard given for his safety, which resulted in his death. This is third-degree murder. And Ben Shapiro is a fool for trying to spin it some other way.

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2021-04-12 04:27:03 (edited by gerech 2021-04-12 04:27:57)

@13, 14, 15, 16. I didn't say the officers aren't guilty of criminal negligence. Doesn't the prosecution have to prove  without a reasonable doubt, that Shauvin directly caused Floyd's death? Floyd was already complaining that he can't breathe in the police car before he was even on the ground. According to the testimony in the trial, drugs can cause that. So the question is, did Shauvin kill Floyd or did he just exacerbate the drug overdose problem that Floyd was suffering?

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2021-04-12 06:12:06

Is standing by while someone is dieing and doing nothing to help murder? When you are capable of helping? I think so. If a little kid falls in a pool and the adults outside the pool watch as the kid drowns isn't that a degree of murder?

Kingdom of Loathing name JB77

2021-04-12 06:41:24

Let me spell this out for you. But a piece of advice first: stop trying to make excuses, because that's exactly what you're still doing.

Floyd said he couldn't breathe. Let's assume for a moment that when this was happening, he was already having trouble breathing. I don't know if he was, but play along, because this is the argument you're predicating your objection upon.

So the cops knew or suspected he was having trouble breathing. What did they do? They restricted his breathing further by putting him face-down, in handcuffs, against the ground, and pinning him at three different points, severely restricting his chest. This goes well beyond "we had no way of knowing his breathing was compromised", dude.

This isn't just criminal negligence; in fact, if this is the argument the defense attempts, you can expect the prosecution to rip them apart.

This isn't the same as standing by while somebody drowns. This is like listening to someone shouting that they're drowning, then jumping in with them and pushing their head down a few times whenever they bob up to the surface.

Now, with that in mind, are you sure you want to stick with the drugs defense? Because if I were you, I'd abandon it in a tearing fucking hurry. If the police truly thought that George Floyd was in medical distress, then they had even less reason to restrict his breathing for nine minutes. They had an obligation to restrain him in the safest, least intrusive way possible, such that if Floyd needed medical attention, he would get it without further complications.

There is no plausible deniability in this angle of attack.
If police believed Floyd couldn't breathe before they even began restraining him, then they made the problem much, much worse, and they did it knowingly. This makes them criminally responsible for manslaughter; they didn't set off the chain of events which ultimately led to Floyd's death, but rather than standing aside or doing nothing, they chose to make it worse, and went on making that choice while being pleaded with by bystanders to let Floyd breathe. That's monstrous, and if it were virtually anybody else, they'd be facing criminal repercussions for that. This sort of logic is the kind that puts drunk drivers behind bars, by the way. Most drunk drivers don't actually set out to drive drunk, and certainly don't set out to kill people. Yet, they ignore facts and reality, make bad choices, and ultimately end up getting nailed for vehicular manslaughter or worse. And I know that sometimes they skate, but that's usually when they're rich or well-connected, and I trust you will agree with me when I say that that's bullshit.

However, there is a slightly different slant on this, too.
If police believed that Floyd was lying about being unable to breathe both before the prone restraint and throughout it, that's a little better, but still pretty busted. Usually, when someone screams over and over that they can't breathe, you reach a point where you either conclude that they're hysterical, or you believe them. If there's no mitigating circumstance present to suggest that breathing problems should exist, then yeah, sure, Floyd's just panicking. Except that we know that for nine minutes or so, three cops were pinning him down, crushing his lungs, intermittently cutting off the flow of blood (and thus oxygen) to his brain. Put another way, if they thought he was freaking out at first, they should have stopped thinking so when he kept up his pleas while being restrained. Given that there were safe, risk-free alternatives to maintain control of Mr. Floyd, and given that police knowingly did not choose to employ any of those strategies - remember, they've been trained in the use of force, they can't cry ignorance here - the continued danger Mr. Floyd was in is completely and 100% the fault of the police.

Sorry, bro, but you're done here.

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2021-04-12 17:17:33

@16 there’s to different audio clips, the first audio wasn’t clear for anyone to understand what he was saying, so that’s why you assumed that you heard, “I ate to many drugs” witch the other one was the best clarity of the audio version and it was, “I ain’t ate any drugs” both were the audio from the body cams. Believe whatever you want. The whole thing comes down to another person lost their life by the police’s violence. Now who can you go to for help? If you’re not white in America then you are a target!!!

2021-04-12 19:55:43

21, I was saying the police were guilty of murder. Thanks for the clarification about the eating statement. I have hearing problems which is why I get words mixed up. I'm technically deaf, not completely, of course.

2021-04-12 21:40:02

Everyone had that same problem with the audio of the first version, I understand the hearing issue, my grandma had the same problem. The first audio version was tampered with, it was shortened and distorted but the second one is longer and polished audio version where you can understand more. I’m sorry for that. I’m so fed up with this happening with people of color nearly every day!!! When will this insanity finally stop!!! I’m burned out from the local and national news!!!!! Are there any good people left in the world?

2021-04-12 22:02:21

Please send me the longer version then. I'd like to see it for myself.

2021-04-12 23:47:37

Completely agree with Jayde here. In my opinion, no matter what happens, when someone says they can’t breathe and if you stay on them for nine minutes straight and they die, you are guilty of murder. No matter if they were on drugs or if they had a breathing problem or anything like that.