2021-03-25 07:55:26

@24 well by that logic, if there was someone consistently getting hit by cars, so you tried to give them some tips of how to cross the road, then you would be victim blaming.

@25 you are free to disagree, I could be completely wrong smile however, I would contend that it is dodging the problem. there are two things.

firstly, the person I am dealing with, whether they would be an offender or not, learns indirectly through this that they need to address me. as I mentioned, by the time my guide returns, they understand they should talk to me, without me having to said this explicitly.

and second, I can't hope to reeducate the world. there is so few of us, that I will keep dealing with people who just don't get it and trying to educate everyone I meet is draining. I am sure you know what I mean.

ultimately one of my guiding principles is that I have power over changing my own behavior, but I can't change other people's behavior unless they are open to it. so I focus on the former. (don't get me wrong, if someone seems open and interested then I won't hesitate to inform them how they can better support VI people.)

Jade, I think the difference in view goes deeper idealogically. personally I think it is more often on the individual to solve their problem, you think more often society should solve problems for individuals. you are socialist, I am anti-socialist. sorry, for the gross simplification, but just wanted to highlight I think we have different core values that lead us to conclude very differently broadly across topics instead of just this one.

It's the difference of core values that leads you to see it as victim blaming and me as victim empowering. and just to be clear, I can't say my values are better than yours, since personal values are necessarily subjective, so your view or my view might be ultimately more effective. either way I appreciate seeing the different point of view.

2021-03-25 09:35:27

I'm actually not quite sold on that last point you made, and here's why.
Yes, in some cases I absolutely do think that getting help solving a problem from others is good.
But I do also think that using your own resources is extremely important.
In my profession, we talk about a client-centered, strengths-based approach. This means that, for example, if you were a client of mine, I wouldn't just be saying, "Okay, here's this money, here are these resources, here's this doctor to give you pills, have a nice day". I'd be talking to you about using your own skills, your strengths, your abilities, to better your position. If you needed help finding those strengths, that's okay. If you needed a bit of a nudge from the outside? That's okay too. And there really are situations where no amount of internal strength is just going to auto-solve a problem. It's a variation on the old bootstrap scenario.
So it's not that I think it's my complete responsibility to educate anyone and everyone. I just feel that, hey, if I -can help, why wouldn't I at least try, if I'm able? And most times I'm able.

You're correct in that not having a guide close by may teach most people eventually to just ask you questions. But the goal isn't just to teach people to talk to you, because, hello, of -course they're going to talk to you if you're the only one present. The goal, at least in my view, is to teach people -NOT to talk over you or past you. They are two different scenarios, and in my own life, your solution just doesn't suit because the people whose behaviour you're hoping will improve aren't actually getting a chance to deal with the problematic situation.

I'll put this another way.
I have categorically never dealt with someone who refused to talk to me when I was alone and they needed to interact with me. Not once. Why? Because people seem to realize that when it's one-on-one, all the normal rules apply, for the most part. There's nothing to solve there.
But the instant there's another person involved? Suddenly, bad behaviour can start. And while it's not my actual responsibility to fix that, my empathetic side says that if I'm capable of giving enough fucks to tolerate the inconvenience while perhaps getting someone to rethink what they're doing, it might just help someone else down the road who perhaps has far thinner skin or who, unlike me, might now how to advocate for themselves properly.
Again, I'm not faulting you for not doing this. I'm not even trying to go anywhere near that. As I said in an earlier post, you do you. That's fine with me. But this outlook works for me. Because at the end of the day, I am hoping to affect some small, positive change on the world. I don't just want to pass through it making the fewest waves possible. If I have to gently set someone straight, that's okay with me, if the alternative is that biases aren't challenged and bad behaviours continue. Doing it your way, in my opinion, is less likely to work because it's not invoking the problematic situation in the first place. If all I cared about was getting good service and treatment for myself, then sure, it works. But I care about more than that.
So this is my reframe. You structured it as me expecting others to solve problems for you, vs. you expecting people to deal with their own shit. For me, I see it as me caring about a broader perspective and the potential experiences of others, while you are more interested in the direct impact on you and whatever you're doing. Rather than socialist vs. antisocialist, it's more individualism vs. collectivism. Again, no negative judgments, but I think this distinction, while you may feel it is a hair-splitter of an argument, is quite important.

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2021-03-25 11:33:02

26,  well done, you just twisted a point I tried to make. Lets change the scenario up a bit. A car plows off the road,  and runs over someone standing on the side in an area the car should not have gone to. And that is like saying hey, if your relaxing on the grass, if a car suddenly plows towards you you better practice yourv avoidance skills.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2021-03-25 11:38:03

aIt must be harder for those of us who have an SSP, which would be equivalent to your guide. In most cases, SSPs do not provide direct sign language interpretation, although they can if they are fluent in TASL or protactile. I still have enough hearing to be able to answer for myself and so far haven't had a need to use an SSP yet.

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She/they
Reedsy

2021-03-25 13:10:27

This happens to me to, a good example is a couple weeks ago when I went for my Covid vaccine, the nurse literally said does she want to take her coat off, obviously addressing it to my nan who was also present. So I said yes I'll take it off now thank you, and did so independently without any needed assistance.
But then when I told my nan how I felt about it when we were alone, she just said oh, I'm sure she didn't mean it like that.
I didn't pursue the matter as I didn't want any arguments, but I really felt like saying obviously she did because she was intending that I couldn't be addressed like a normal person.
Another thing I hate, and I don't know if you guys have experienced this, is when people whisper and lipread in your presents when they are either talking about you or don't want you to hear them.
Sure if they're talking about private things and they don't want me overhearing, there's other ways to go about that like politely asking me to leave the room or doing so themselves, rather than lipreading or whispering which makes me paranoid because most of the time I can tell they're talking about me when they do it, and when I say I can hear you whispering they just laugh and say things like "you don't miss a trick!".

Though our eyes may fail, our ears prevail!
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2021-03-25 13:13:21

I just answer the questions I know are directed at me. Most of the time when this has happened, I'm with someone IU'm close to (parent or wife for example), so they know to just shut up and let me answer. My Mum used to say "Why don't you ask him?"

I know it's tempting, but there's no need to be rude unless the target is being particularly dense.

It's worth bearing in mind that nobody likes to be demeaned. If you say "Oye, look here fuck face, I'm a human being too", the person on the receiving end of that is going to feel just as belittled as you feel not being asked your address directly. Difference is, you're on a forum full of blind people you can ask for advice,. That person won't have a forum of other people who get their shame, so the easiest option is just to avoid disabled people in the future.

Psychologically, if you use a persons' name, or go out of your way to put them at ease, they will remember you, and be more likely to want to interact with you in the future, because you make them feel special. If you go out of your way (no matter your intentions) to make them feel stupid, or inferior in some way, they're going to want to avoid you, and possibly others who remind them of you in the future. It's like small-scale PTSD I guess.

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2021-03-25 16:00:31

Dragonlee wrote:

as for what I do, something I haven't seen mentioned yet, is minimizing what I'd call the "attack surface". when I go for some appointment, like medical, bank, or some sort of governement department, I ask my guide to take me to whoever I need to talk to and then I ask them to at the very least step back or even leave the room, so the person I came to see is forced to talk to me.

after done discussing whatever I came to discuss and something needs to be read, I'll ask my guide to come back in, otherwise they are either standing back or outside. by the time they are called back in, the person I am dealing with understands I am capable of talking for myself and they don't pull this crap on me.

of course, this 3rd person talking problem still happens, but with this strategy I at least don't have to deal with it as often.

Hey! That's one I haven't thought of yet. Great advice and I am definitely open to trying that. I'm also convinced it'll work, because when I do travel on my own of course they have no choice but to talk to me, and I actually get treated like a normal person. This is a great suggestion and thanks for your contribution.

2021-03-25 16:27:20

Personally I'd go with just calmly telling the person that I can answer the question they're asking, or not even that... Just answering the question.
When I'm at a restaurant, lots of times I won't know the person is asking me what I want, so Mom will just say, "Matthew, He or She is asking you," and I'll go... Oh, sorry. I'd like blibbity bla, with a side of whatever it is.
When I can actually hear the person, they'll ask me... And honestly I still don't realize it most of the time because there's lots of people sitting around the table, or whatever the reason may be.
I'll wait about 2 or 3 seconds and then say, I'd like whatever my order was.
Sometimes they'll ask Mom what I want, and usually I tell her beforehand, so in situations where it's really hard to hear or the person taking the order is far away from me, she'll just answer.

-----
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Discord: misterkrabs69

2021-03-25 19:11:34

@32 happy to help! for me personally this was actually a game changer. funnily enough, I didn't invent this, but my sighted guide at uni did.

after lecture was done I would often go to the professor to ask some follow up questions. many professors would look at him when answering me even though I was the one asking the questions. my guide kept getting fed up with this. he tried to point to me and make facial gestures to signal the prof should look at and address me instead. then one day he thought of taking a couple of steps back after guiding me to the professor and things instantly changed.

some time later I started to apply this to solve the opposite problem, my guide stepping in and talking for me, even though the person asked me. invariably this chatty guide was always my mom. I've never been able to explain to her she needs to let me talk for muyself. sometimes she finally gets it, but forgets after a couple of days and starts doing it again. instead of fighting her nature, I decided to just ask her to leave me alone with the banker,/doctor/whatever and my life has become a bit less stressful.

2021-03-25 19:29:45

For me, knowing that someone is talking to me is just an instinctual response. Knowing that I need to answer a question is just something that I've always done. My Mom when we go to medical appointments and such is really good at ensuring that I'm the one answering the questions; she never answers in my stead unless its a question I'm not sure of. I've also gone to areas on my own and definitely get treated normal in those instances.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-03-25 19:40:17

@35, do you have enough vision to at least sort of be able to tell if someone is looking at you though? I, myself, am total, and particularly in loud environments it isn't always easy to tell who someone is talking to.

2021-03-25 19:48:36 (edited by manamon_player 2021-03-25 19:49:00)

hi
when this happen, I want to break every wall and door infront of me, and shout at him to ask myself else than others
I really hate this feeling. I just can't see, just this! I surprized when found out that this happened in US

2021-03-25 19:57:50

Post 33, I have an important question.
I've never tried blibbity bla before. What's it like?

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2021-03-25 20:14:20

@38,
How on earth haven't you heard of Blibbity bla? It's currently the most popular food in the lower 48 states!

LOL, I was using it as a sort of placeholder.

-----
Matthew's Horse Needs Your Support!
Discord: misterkrabs69

2021-03-25 20:20:46

I'm sure it tastes something like beepity bip, except with less electronic flavouring.

Prier practice and preparation prevents piss poor performance!

2021-03-25 21:12:34

@36, no, I don't. Its just an instinctive nagging feeling, I think. I can't really describe it.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-03-25 22:04:43

TheBlindSaiyan wrote:

But then when I told my nan how I felt about it when we were alone, she just said oh, I'm sure she didn't mean it like that.
...and when I say I can hear you whispering they just laugh and say things like "you don't miss a trick!".

It's a common thing I've seen with other types of discrimination too, people on the outside dismissing it as if it were nothing. It has happened to me too and I know how you feel. Because you're going "How could they possibly not have meant to treat me like a child or second-class?"

I've heard of witnesses to harassment dismissing it also as "no, it wasn't like that, you just misread it."

I don't know why people do this, but it does happen an it's made even worse when someone who you trust doesn't understand your perspective and at least try to see it from your side.

As to your second point, yup, they laugh because they don't take you seriously, or are caught off guard.

2021-03-26 11:50:50

I guess I am blessed, since I don't exude any blind mannerisms and still have a little bit of vision left to use it to sorta focus on different interesting things making me seem more similar than not. That's not to say I haven't encountered this problem. Like post 18 I believe, most of the time it doesn't bother me, I go with whatever's most convenient honestly. I haven't really had this issue lately so can't say how I'd respond today, but then again I surround myself with people who are very good at this, as in they don't speak, and I speak for myself.
Which brings me to my second point: people who I'm supposed to interact with long term, or might in the future. If they behave like this, I will simply know to stay away from them. For example I was once "chatting" with this guy who owned a radio station to see if I could come do an inturnship there. He kept asking the person with me, so guess what? I just shrugged and told him that I'll look into other options.
Which brings me to a final point, which isn't really relevant to this topic, but is good advice none the less, and should be considered by everybody.
When you can, choose the people around you. I recently stopped talking to someone extremely toxic and my behaviour has significantly improved. Don't give assholes the time of your day, unless you want to vent some steam of course.

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2021-03-26 13:36:11

I also try to answer them before the person whose been asked about me, gets the chance to answer. I would really appreciate if people wouldn't answer for me when I can. Because you know, sometimes people act as if you're not even their and ask their questions about you in a way that you feel they're talking about another person whose absent. In addition to that form of conversation about you, Now assume you're dealing with something in your head and not paying 100 % attention to the conversation going on. smile

---
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2021-03-30 19:26:24

As an update, I went back in for more tests and followed the advice of Dragonlee to have your guide leave the room. It worked in my favor without the need for any extra words. I have quoted the post below for reference. Since this solution seems so effective, marking this as resolved. Thanks!

Munawar wrote:
Dragonlee wrote:

as for what I do, something I haven't seen mentioned yet, is minimizing what I'd call the "attack surface". when I go for some appointment, like medical, bank, or some sort of governement department, I ask my guide to take me to whoever I need to talk to and then I ask them to at the very least step back or even leave the room, so the person I came to see is forced to talk to me.

after done discussing whatever I came to discuss and something needs to be read, I'll ask my guide to come back in, otherwise they are either standing back or outside. by the time they are called back in, the person I am dealing with understands I am capable of talking for myself and they don't pull this crap on me.

of course, this 3rd person talking problem still happens, but with this strategy I at least don't have to deal with it as often.

Hey! That's one I haven't thought of yet. Great advice and I am definitely open to trying that. I'm also convinced it'll work, because when I do travel on my own of course they have no choice but to talk to me, and I actually get treated like a normal person. This is a great suggestion and thanks for your contribution.