@20 As soon as you would enable the function again, Brad would come in and delete hundreds of valuable topics, no matter who else has posted there and what they had to say. He said that many times. So I don't think nobody would abuse this.
#27 (edited by Draq 2021-03-21 11:33:44)
In my own personal case, it's the fact that control I had over topics I start was removed without my consent or notice, and I wasn't even the reason why it was taken away. If those other platforms didn't give me that control in the first place, then I didn't lose anything. Now to balance that out, I realize that taking that feature away was pretty much the only solution available and it wasn't personal. So for me, it's a mix of understanding why it was done and being pissed right off because dammit stop taking shit away from me when I haven't done a thing wrong. Lol.
As was pointed out, there are legitimate uses for topic deletion that I and other responsible people would use it for. Why have the forum cluttered with closed duplicate topics when the user could just delete them? Why bother a moderator to move a topic to the wrong room if you realize your mistake before anyone else posted to it? What if you made a topic that probably won't get any responses and you just want it gone? That last one does require some responsibility.
If someone has a reputation for causing pointless drama and plans to erase a ton of history at the drop of a hat just because they feel like it, just ban them already. Stop giving them all these chances when it's obvious they'll never learn. Stop punishing the responsible people because one or two people can't be responsible. If they can't follow rules then they're gone, so if they misuse a feature to knowingly wipe out a lot of useful information with no remorse then they should be gone.
@27, again, the majority of forums out thre don't allow yo uto delete topics. We keep them around and "clutter" (as you say) the forum because those topics are still important history. Plus, someone might bring those topics back if they want to continue a discussion in them.
Yeah, the mods punished the non-offenders as well as the offenders when this was implemented, but that's a really, really tiny price to pay. Its not worth bitching about. If the forum had a far more advanced ACL system, then we could allow people to do it who we know are trustworthy and who won't abuse the shit out of it, but we can't.
yeah, this is such a non-issue. Don't be a cunt and you have nothing to want to delete. I've even said some stupid shit on here before that I wish I could delete, but you know what, own your shit, I owned mine.
It's very easy, if you see a topic about BGT, simply don't reply to it.
If you're thinking about creating a topic about BGT, just don't.
Doing these things will cause all such topics to sink to oblivion.
#30 (edited by Exodus 2021-03-21 17:22:16)
I've only ever deleted a single post in my entire time here and that was on the total commander thread because I figured out the question I asked like 20 seconds after posting. I'm willing to bet no-one even seen what I asked. So that busts your the only people who are against this are obviously dicks that want to cover up their dickishness argument. See also: Draq.
Next, you hold up steam as your example of how the other side does it... But steam are an enormous mega corp that couldn't give a single fuck about how the users feel about the forums, which are a secondary part of their service anyway. Their moderators also regularly go on power trips and yeet threads from existence all the time. Blizzard? more of the same you only need to look at their handling of the diablo immortal debacle where they had to get help from youtube to do damage control for them. Shit examples over all.
Next, Could you please point out where I stated that thread deletion was a right on here? I'll wait...
Finally, you've mentioned three times here that people are bitching, yet the only one I se being bitchy and hostile af here is you... Simmer down, champ.
With that out the way...
I'm aware that lifting this restriction is at least going to have brad having a massive deletegasm, but I say we just let him get on with it. He literally has power over everyone now. Let him have his fun, if he returns then we all put on our big boy pants, self-moderate and do/do not engage with the guy, fully aware of his tendency to push the nuclear button when he get's the chance.
I am aware of why this change was made in the first place and can understand why it was done, but the forum's circumstances have hardly remained the same since then and if anything the thing just seems to be getting more and more unstable. Perhaps it is about time we investigate giving this privilege back to the users? We did have it for years after all and there were never any problems.
@30 I don't get it. Why do you want this function so badly when we all know that it'll cause trouble and almost never be useful? Mods close topics for you if you wish, they move topics when they're placed in the wrong room, and topics disappear from the first pages anyway. And you can edit silly posts if you don't want to see them again. I don't see a single case where this function would be useful without being abused.
Lol, bitching, in a topic title with the word please? Do you even think a little before throwing such, nowadays so overused words?
Someone already very nicely said, we had it for years and it never caused problems. You say why do you want it back so badly, and I say why are you against it so badly now? Where were you 10 years ago to complain how the function should be disabled? Even worse, we had active webmasters then, so you could even suggest alternatives...
Now, a few vocal users feel the need to defend every decision, even though nobody really attacked the moderation in this case, since we perfectly understand the reasoning. But speaking of transparency, it is true that this wasn't really ever mentioned anywhere and it was just done.
@30, alright, so some responses to your claims:
1. Whether the mods on those forum examples I mentioned are power-hungry is pretty much irrelevant. My point still stands. The rust users and internals forums do not allow users to delete their own topics either. I could go on and on -- its not hard to find a forum these days that doesn't allow that kind of thing.
2. Your first paragraph doesn't bust that argument at all that the only people who would use it are abusers of the function. For one, we're talking about topics, not posts. There's a difference between the two, as I'm positive your aware. Second, you and Draq are the exception, not the rule. The overwhelming majority of users wh owould utilize that function will abuse the shit out of it. Therefore, there is no point in having it enabled.
3. You never stated thread deletion was a right on here. You don't have to state it when your implying it. By complaining about it, your acting as though you should have the right to delete your threads. Deleting your threads is a privilege. It was enabled for 10 years and people didn't abuse it during that time, but times have changed, and we have members now who would abuse that privilege were they to have such.
4. Finally, yeah, I've stated that people are bitching, but that's just a different word to describe this topic.
33: Do you live stream your mental gymnastics? Asking for a friend.
#35 (edited by Ethin 2021-03-21 21:41:18)
@34, now your just trying to troll. Frankly, I could care less what your supposed "friend" thinks about me.
A few things here:
1. I've already addressed why this change took place. I've also addressed the way in which I did it, which, while I had my reasons, was definitely a case of trying to catch folks out without letting anyone know first. It didn't work, and ultimately my credibility took a deserved hit. I've been pretty much full transparency ever since, however. It's important to note that I'm usually a very up-front person; what you see is what you get. The fact that I not only did this on my own, quietly, but felt it was a necessary step at all, will tell you how often we were seeing reports from threads that were deleted by the time we found them. This happened literally dozens of times last year, or I would never have felt the need to even address this, much less act.
2. A funny thing has happened. When I came on staff, one of the first things I began to push for was to make the rules both more precise and, I hope, more clear. Instead of getting the response I expected (since people were complaining about this), what I got instead was people trying harder and harder to push. If you want to know why bans, warnings and general punishment has gone up in the last two or three years, don't blame me, don't blame specific users. Instead, look at the trend. You got more transparency, and as a community, you paid it back with more challenges, more outcry, more arguments (some good, some definitely not so good) and worse. I knew this was possible, but did not think it would come to define this era of the forum. Put another way, you know exactly where you can and cannot step in about 99.6% of cases, and some of you take serious issue with this. But you also took serious issue with having no idea where boundaries existed in the past. Since I'm big on making sure someone knows what they've done wrong and has a measurable standard -before they break a rule instead of as a reaction to a breach of rules, I thought this change, accompanied by our general willingness as a team to talk things out with the community instead of just going full autocrat, would be enough to help things move forward. Unfortunately, that has not been the case.
3. You have the ability to edit any post you have ever made, without restriction. You can even change the title of a topic you have made, if you wish. With these tools alone, it is extremely easy to set the record straight if you misspeak. If you're worried about asking us to move threads, please don't be; it's not a big deal, it's not going to result in you getting in any trouble, and we've all done it at least once. Drop a report, and we'll get to it. If you -do choose this as a line of attack, please don't treat it like it is an actual argument. The only arbiters of whether or not it's too annoying for the staff to move threads are, in fact, the staff team. We ask that you not attempt to dictate for us terms by which we are perfectly happy to live with. There is nothing you can't do with a little effort and time, even going so far as to replace all your posts with one-word entries if you so desired. Your bad behaviour can thus be obscured if you really want to go that route, and if nothing else, your older posts will quickly be forgotten.
I kinda have the impression here, unfortunately, that some of you who are concerned about this aren't really considering what you're asking, and why it's necessary, when the risk is that we might actually go back to dozens of reports we can't follow through on because people try to cover up their bad behaviour by nuking whole threads. Sure, is it a little annoying that you can't move your own threads or can't delete your own topics? Yeah, I suppose so. But again, you can functionally do the same thing with very little effort, so I see this as yet another symptom of pushback for the sake of pushback.
I can definitely see where you're coming from, Jayde, and even though though your post wasn't directed at anyone specifically, I do apologize if I was one of those who seemed to be pushing back just to push back. That certainly wasn't my intention if so. I only speak up if I feel that I have a valid argument/point/concern. That's why I tried to balance my irritation out with understanding. I also do very much appreciate the transparency.
I do see something wrong though. Editing can also be misused to cover up bad behavior before it gets reported or the report is seen, unless moderators have the ability to see edit history. . If people can simply obfuscate their bad behavior by editing their posts, what's the point of disallowing thread deletion by the starter to prevent this very thing? Editing can set the record straight, but it can also falsify records. It also screws with the disciplinary action topic, because no one can go see what that person actually did if the post is edited. They have the thread, but they can't see the example. That could happen if the thread was deleted as well though, so either way it's an issue with no real solution other than to disallow editing of posts as well.
I'd also like to point out that a topic full of one letter posts because someone wanted to wipe away everything they wrote is probably a heck of a lot more annoying than a deleted thread, depending on the thread. Imagine trying to follow a thread and every other post is just "edited", or "A", or whatever.
So to address specific points:
Don't worry. I wasn't aiming at any specific user, just at the general tone of the "we shouldn't have had this taken away, and now that the problems are over, we should get it back" rhetoric. Of course the problems went away; I took action to make them stop. I have no quarrel with any specific person here, I promise. I'm not upset. At the very worst, I'm a very little bit frustrated. But that shouldn't stop you from voicing concerns. Concerns which I'll specifically get to now.
I've thought about the impact of disallowing the editing of posts, but I hope that in reading this very thread, you'll see how cataclysmically badly that would go. If you think three or four people raising an issue that may not really be an issue might be a touch inconvenient, imagine ten times that many users, and more, suddenly feeling like they're having their rights slowly stripped away. On the one hand, yeah, you'd have no more hiding the evidence if you said or did something stupid. On the other hand, people wouldn't stand for that, I bet. If you folks want to go ahead and prove me wrong, by all means go for it, but I'll be very surprised to see people honestly supporting a removal of the "edit post" option.
I agree completely that a thread full of massively edited posts wouldn't be illuminating. I also agree that if people did this enough, it could still obfuscate guilt or confuse meaning. You could only impact your own posts though. More on this later. It still is sometimes a little confusing or unclear, but to my way of thinking, this is the lesser of many evils. With more control over the forum software, we could do fancier stuff with permissions, the right to edit/delete, etc., but that's just not what we're dealing with.
The thing is, you have control only of your -own posts, and that's the real crux of this issue. Giving users the ability to delete their own threads literally means they have the right to undo the words of others who have also posted there. Also, some folks in dramatic topics have a habit of quoting problematic posts, which the offending poster can't just magic away with the delete button. So you'd need several people colluding to render a bad thread or bad topic or action completely inscrutable. And that's...just not happening here. Mostly, people make posts, get quoted or referred to specifically, then we can go digging even if that person does use the edit feature to remove the offensive part of their posts. If there is sufficient evidence, we can and will punish someone for stuff they said, even if they removed it. This depends, of course, on intent, on context and on exactly what was being said in the first place, but yes, if there's enough framework there, we absolutely are prepared to act.
Haha. Yeah. The inability to edit posts would probably upset some people. We'd probably have a lot more double postings, posts with a ton of typos and misspellings, misinformation that people would follow without reading corrections in later posts, etc. Maybe it would encourage people to try to proofread before they post, but that's not really fair to people who don't have a good grasp of English. It really is a situation where the good has to be weighed against the bad.
Precisely. Also, as a native English speaker who types super-fast and sometimes makes goofs, I admit that I like the ability to go back and edit my posts. I try to do so in a realistic way (I might add a little, correct some typos, etc), and I rarely just nuke a post and start from the ground up.
So yeah, I'm hoping you understand the issue here a little better. You still have the ability to edit the contents of any post you make. You just don't have the ability to delete threads, or move them (though you never had that latter in the first place, so let's take that off the table, shall we?). And the primary reason you can't delete threads is because people who started problematic threads would then take them down, which not only nuked the evidence of their own wrongdoing but also took away whatever others were saying about them. That is not the sort of control any one user should have over any other without a specific reason. For instance, I never, ever edit the posts of other users unless the rules are involved directly (i.e., I'm removing an unacceptable link). I don't feel I have the right to directly change what you post, or to delete it for that matter. I do have the right to protect the forum, as I'm an admin, but that's as far as it goes. Likewise, you (general you here) have every right in the world to change your own messages, but you should not have the right to directly impact the messages of others by being able to straight-up delete them if you were the creator of a topic.
So what I'm circling around to saying here is that I haven't seen any new or enlightening arguments. I disagree that there needs to be further change here, but I disagree civilly. There is no doubt that I handled the removal of the privilege in the first place badly; I'm not excusing my behaviour on that front. This may have contributed to the sour taste some forum members undoubtedly got when they realized they'd lost a privilege they formerly enjoyed, and for that, I truly am sorry. Most of you don't engage in this behaviour much or at all, but the ones who did made apparent the need for change in the first place with their actions. The way I dealt with this situation likely caused the reaction to be coloured more negatively, and I'm on the hook for that. But this is precisely why I'm here explaining myself. It should be understood, however, that even if I'd gone through the proper channels and protocols, like I should've done in the first place, the team would have supported this, because they supported it anyway. It just would have been done with staff consent instead of on my own initiative. The reason for secrecy was because I was hoping to catch some repeat offenders making threads and then being unable to backpedal and delete them, but this never actually happened, so that never came to anything.
Short version: I don't see anything changing, I'm apologizing once again for the way I initially handled this because I know I made it a bit worse, but if you look at the big picture, you'll realize that the rights and responsibilities you currently enjoy are commensurate with a forum such as this. You can make posts and threads without limitation; you can edit your own posts as often as you want; you simply can't delete posts outright, and by extension, you can't delete threads, because you should not have the right to just unmake a discussion that you began.
I believe people think I was/am part of the problem but here's the thing; people grow up and change.
if the web devs had allowed me to delete my acount I'd probably not have posted so many stupid topics. In fact I can almost garantee it as I'd be able to get on with my life and not have my data in a place I didn't want it.
I'm sorry but others shouldn't matter when you want to remove *your* data as the topic belongs to you. If peple cared about it so much, they have the ability to make a new one with no issues.
I know what people are going to say, but Brad, people made x amount of posts on your topic and to that I reply, so? They can make them again if they're that important.
I really do miss the delete topic feature. I feel that the internet should allow you to remove your own personal data whenever you wish.
#42 (edited by manamon_player 2021-03-23 12:54:20)
I think with removing topics, people can regecte proofs if something bad happened in their topic, also people can avoid any moderators actions such as errors, warnings, and bans
@41, don't blame your inability to go away on not being able to delete your account. That's BS. The only reason you couldn't leave is because you kept coming back and wouldn't break the habit
#44 (edited by Lucas1853 2021-03-23 15:36:37)
@41: I've posted in your topics before. If you want to approach it from this angle of your topics being your data, my posts are my data. I do not want you deleting my data without my permission. I do not give you permission. You can delete your own data without my permission, however. So if you ever want to delete a post that started one of your topics, just edit it and replace it with something else. Moderators, being sort of the arbiters of data on this forum if you will, can delete data without permission if they choose. Although I don't really like that either honestly. I prefer the approach that is usually taken where topics are closed.
Also Brad, there is a very easy way to get rid of your account. Change your email to something random, and change your password to something random. Use a service that generates a random string of characters, copy it to your clipboard without looking, and paste it in there. Done.
@Lucas1853 You bring up an interesting point about it being your data. As for the email, I never thought of that.
I'll do that right now.
@Ethin I like to delete my accounts, I always have. As for coming back, yeah; I'll freely admit I can't seam to leave this place alone but on the other hand if I was able to delete my account 9 times out of 10 I'd not want to make it again as it's gone.
Anyway after making this post i'll actually be gone I didn't know throw away emails were a thing but I do now.
#46 (edited by Ethin 2021-03-23 17:54:10)
Five days later, he'll be back. Anyone wanna bet $2.00? Lol
$2.00 sounds fair
btw 45, if you really want to go, then dont say it outloud
then you'll go as much as you want without recieving backlash, but still, se eyou later after few days
meh, he's doing it for the attention.
It's very easy, if you see a topic about BGT, simply don't reply to it.
If you're thinking about creating a topic about BGT, just don't.
Doing these things will cause all such topics to sink to oblivion.
Well, this would be one of those situations where the comunity failure clause would come in handy.
der Kirchturmpfal zum Himmel steht,
Der Wein geweiht, die Erde bebt.
Dem Herr seih nah im Stoßgebet