2020-12-05 20:08:59 (edited by connor142 2020-12-05 20:12:20)

Before I say anything, let the following speak for itself:
1: this topic, specifically post 6, posted on October 22nd of this year
2: this topic, specifically posts 5 and 7, posted on the very same day

tldr: If you say you want to do a piracy crackdown, then start banning a random soundpack as a sort of first step in that direction, then you'd better go the full way. Jayde in particular, you were the one constantly saying you don't want to be a hypocrit. So stop being one. We've waited more than a month, the vast horizon team has waited more than a month, and quite frankly, you've got two options. Either a: Allow the soundpack to be talked about again, or b: Go the full mile and start axing games.
Jayde, you yourself are split on the issue, from what I see. you have your ideals, but you don't want this forum to get into any trouble, and you want fairness for all devs. This is definitely not bringing it to them.

I used to be a knee like you, then I took an adventurer in the arrow.

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2020-12-05 21:05:19

I don't like bringing up old topics that caused allot of drama, but I thought we were supposed to take a community vote on this by now?

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2020-12-06 01:58:51

I don't think that ever became official.

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2020-12-06 11:30:17

When Dglex banned the vast horizon soundpack, using the moderation tag in his post, it seemed plenty official. When Jayde went on and on about it, and threw out action promises left and right, it seemed plenty official. What's not official here?

I used to be a knee like you, then I took an adventurer in the arrow.

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2020-12-06 13:38:08

Didn't one of those posts say, effectively, we discussed it among us modds and... type things too? I may be misremembering but I'm fairly sure that was in at least one of the posts. Also yes, @1, If the mods set a rule, stick to it. You don't want 'stolen' sounds, fine, crack down on everything or nothing at all.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2020-12-06 14:47:20

Hi, folks,

So it comes as no surprise to me that delay turns into double standard for some of you. As such, let me just say this.

When we left this situation with you last, what we had decided was that yes, something had to change. We still feel this way. We had agreed to let you see our process and to talk about it, but we had stopped short of saying that you would get to vote and decide on the course of action we took. This is what Granny CheeseWheel meant, I think, when he said it wasn't official. I could be wrong here, and if I am, I'm sure he'll set me straight.
So that's where we still are. Things have to change. We're working out how to get things going and set them in motion, and given how complicated and loaded it is, we're trying to do right by it.

But we're having problems. First, we're dealing with different time zones for a few of us, and different sleep patterns in my case (blame mental health, because that's the long and short of it). Second, and far, far more importantly, some of us are having intermittent Discord trouble. I am one of those people. Given that we want the team as involved as possible here, and given that we absolutely do not want one person or even a pair hung out front to take all the incoming fire we're bound to get (seriously, this topic is a case and point), this is causing collaboration to slow down far more than any of us planned for. I'm sorry about that. We're still working on it, and it's a high-priority item, so hopefully the wait won't be much longer.

It is perfectly reasonable to ask what's going on with an issue that looked like it was boiling over. It is absolutely not okay to imply that a double standard exists. It is reasonable to ask questions. It is not reasonable to turn those questions into challenges. If you want to understand why it's sometimes hard to negotiate in good faith with some of you, look no further than post 1 in this thread. Rather than asking what the holdup is, Connor comes straight out and calls me a hypocrite. Rather than accepting that Vast Horizons was in the wrong, you mischaracterize their situation as one where they were dealt with too harshly, and seem to imply that there's a possibility they would have been left completely alone; given the amount of pirated assets in their sound pack, this absolutely would not have been the case. The problem was never a question of whether they were over the line or not. The question was whether we should have enforced things on them in the first place. Again, though, we did not know it was going to take as long as it has to finish hammering this out. We are a team of volunteers who have willingly stuck our necks on the collective chopping-block to try and keep this site running for you. It does you no credit when you imply that we are hypocrites for taking too long. It would have been lovely if this was done and dusted two and a half weeks ago. Sure. It's frustrating that it's still hanging. Right, okay, I can get behind that. Expressing a little of that frustration, even? Sure, go for it. But maybe have a thought for what you're saying first, before you say it, so you don't look demanding or like you're spoiling for a fight.

Tl.Dr: It's still coming. Hopefully soon. We're having technical difficulties. Next time, please just ask what the hold-up is, and I guarantee you that you won't see any bristling or defensiveness.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-12-06 16:53:37 (edited by connor142 2020-12-06 16:54:50)

@6 almost all of what you're saying is perfectly reasonable, now that I know the story. Almost. I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite without letting you put out a statement first. That was, looking back, not called for.
I will not, however, apologize about the implication of a double standard, because the simple truth is that from an outsider's perspective, a double standard did indeed exist. This perception of a double standard could have been negated with some form of updates concerning the process you guys want to set in motion.
I also think I was in the right for specifically mentioning your name in the op. It's not a nice state of affairs for you, but so far, you've been the most vocal about this entire thing every time it was brought up, ever since the cp thing started. The other mods have mostly just been there when punishments were to be handed out, such as Dglex when the time came to ban the vast horizon soundpack.

I used to be a knee like you, then I took an adventurer in the arrow.

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2020-12-06 17:58:45

The double standard exists, and I called it out as such, because instead of just saying some version of "Yo, Jayde, what the hell is taking so long?", you seemed to assume the worst. That we were not going to deal with it, which implies that things I said weren't true or were hot air meant to make me or my goals seem a lot more substantial. And I want you to actually go back and think about this for a second, really think about it. I've said and done many things during my time as staff here, but I don't think you can lay empty threats, or empty promises, at my feet. When I say I'm gonna do a thing, the safe bet is that it's going to get done, and that if it's not being done, you can assume there's a problem somewhere. So like I say, ask by all means. Go nuts. Just don't assume.
As such, I accept your apology re: calling me a hypocrite. But this is the sort of systemic problem that makes negotiating with some of the user base in good faith difficult. More accurately, it makes it harder to believe that some of you are actually operating in good faith. Many of you are, and that's great. Many of you sometimes are and sometimes aren't; that's...well, less great, but at least most in that group will eat crow if they realize they were misunderstanding. That's all right. Everyone screws up sometimes, self included. Just...I dunno. Maybe this starts and ends with questions over assumptions. Assumptions lend themselves to antagonism as a default state, which you then blame on us for apparently doing things that some of the user base doesn't want, and that's the double standard (yes, I got to the point). In a sense, you're projecting, and that's not okay with me.

But I tell you what. You've had your say. I've had mine. We don't fully agree and we don't have to. I have no score to settle with you, and hopefully you have none with me. We're still working on a solution here, so please be patient. If a bunch more time goes by and you don't hear anything more about it - even just a "please wait" sort of message - then that's on us, and by all means speak up and ask what the heck is going on. That is one bit of criticism I cannot and will not attempt to deflect. There's some validity to it. That said, I can remember times in the past when some version of "it's coming, please wait" was just met with more antagonism, so speaking personally, this is why I never felt especially compelled to give you status updates that...really weren't all that substantive. I did so here because I think my aversion to getting bogged down in more self-defense that isn't necessary stepped in front of the simple fact that a bunch of time had passed. And this has to go both ways. If I, at least, keep expecting you folks to be jerks because sometimes you have been in the past, then I'm not going to feel motivated to give you greater chances to do it in the future. Flip that around, however, and there is genuine reason to question or be wary of some of the things that have been said and done by the staff team over the last...well, long while, let's put it that way. I still think we're doing fairly well, on the whole, but we're not blameless. Anyway, this truly has to be give and take. We have to be a bit more forthcoming and open toward you - we're working on it - and concurrently, some of you people ought to be a fair bit less antagonistic. Works both ways. Trust is extremely important, and I would love to metaphorically kick some of the louder elements of the "us and them" crowd who have deliberately fomented discord in this community where it was not wanted, not needed, and actively counterproductive.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-12-07 00:40:58

Maybe you guys should just use Skype, or Zoom if under 40 minutes. Also I've found UTC to help with coordinating conversations with people in drastically different timezones.
As for the vote, I was really hoping that you guys would come up with 2 or 3 well thought out options on your end, then have us vote on them.  Not sure why this can't happen as it would also probably help gain back some faith in the mod team.

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2020-12-07 12:54:32

@6. What discord trouble are you experiencing?

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2020-12-09 08:17:27

@jade, whatsapp exist, skype exists, emails exist, email being the last thing as that's a bit slower but man if there's issues with discord, perhaps your team should move to another platform like whatsapp?


I think you can even make groups but will admit I don't know if you can have more than 2 peple on the app at once. My point is though if there's issues and it's sirious, move to other platforms, yes you may prefer platform x but platform y might do things just as well but in a slightly different way.

I've removed my Harry potter link as I will not be back on this forum. To start your own Harry potter fan fiction collection, download fanficdownloader: https://fanfictiondownloader.net/#/home

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2020-12-09 15:29:23

I will admit, I haven't really been experiencing many issues, but other staff on the team are experiencing notification troubles, for one thing. I'm also wondering if some of the slightly different layout could be causing issues, I know it does look a bit odd with stuff clumped together now in the tree view with conversations and servers. Some people have also said the more servers they have, the more of a struggle it is. Now, I do not know the exact situation with our staff, but I do know that at least one of them was experiencing notification issues. The server has gone a bit quiet recently as well. But the last we left this, we were fairly close at coming up with something for you all. I don't want to rush people into it, especially because of a: I'm aware about some staff experiencing mental health issues, and b: busy holiday season. So I am wondering if this might end up being hammered out in the new year. It would honestly make more sense. One thing I will say though, as I think it's fair to say it, is that I think Liam will be happy. He was concerned devs would have to verify assets they own. That will not be the case. I've never seen any mainstream dev have to do that, so, why us, that's a bit barberic and even Jayde has said as much, believe it or not. The closest thing I've ever seen from a mainstream stand point is them listing a sound designer if any.

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2020-12-10 23:07:49

Skype is something I can't get to work, and whose accessibility appears to be going downward, not upward. Discord is amazing when it works, but it's been touch and go for me lately (often, when I try to sign in, I just see a page with nothing on it, but I think I have a way to get past it).
The point is, Discord's troubles weren't universal from day 1, and the switch to that platform wasn't forced. It still appears the best choice. We're just experiencing some wrinkles. Thanks for your patience.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-12-11 02:01:13

@Jayde, discord does that at first. Just hang on a bit then your content should pop up after a bit. As for skype, its for sure a pain in the ass, and Wwhatsapp I believe isn't as popular in the US and Canada, plus there's a chance they wouldn't feel comfortable giving out their numbers.

The past is obviously in the present
Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it

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2020-12-11 02:37:04

Discord is pretty stable, I don't get that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wake me up when the world has unfucked itself
Is time really linear?
You can find me on discord: ironcross#8090, though I don't know why you'd want to.

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2020-12-12 02:05:02

I don't think communication would be an issue these days. There are a lot of platforms to communicate out there, from google meet to zoom, even team talk. Or telegram if you guys don't like whatsapp, just saying.

good day
togira
sorry for my bad english

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2020-12-12 07:55:29

I honestly don't know what's going on but thought I'd put my post out there.


If you guys can get discord to work, great! All I'm saying, as I'm sure you understand is there are other options.

I've removed my Harry potter link as I will not be back on this forum. To start your own Harry potter fan fiction collection, download fanficdownloader: https://fanfictiondownloader.net/#/home

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2020-12-13 04:32:27

@Brad and others, aside from the platform they use, did you not see the bit about the staff having timezone differences, and something called, personal, lives?

The past is obviously in the present
Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it

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2020-12-14 03:57:59

@jayjay I did. I think if personal lives are impacting you that much you can't do your modding stuff, then you should step down.

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2020-12-14 08:00:08 (edited by JayJay 2020-12-14 08:01:29)

@19, who do you propose replace them? Christ you people, be thankful that dispite the treatment and posts like 19 they still bother giving a fuck aboout this forum and keeping it running smoothly. Its as zarvox said, come back from ban, then complain complain, bah bah bah.

The past is obviously in the present
Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it

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2020-12-14 08:11:15

@jayJay, No no no, you are really reading into this in a negative way when that's not how I meant it at all.


If people are having negative issues with their lives, then that should be sorted out before any mod stuff as that can be stressful.


I'm really not trying to be a bastard here or anything.


As for who should replace them? I have no idea what so ever.

I've removed my Harry potter link as I will not be back on this forum. To start your own Harry potter fan fiction collection, download fanficdownloader: https://fanfictiondownloader.net/#/home

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2020-12-14 11:14:09

Hi,
I think the word brad might have meant was step back, meaning essentially wait it out for a while. Stepping down would mean someone is having trouble for an extended period and wishes to leave the team, and from what I can tell, that is not currently the case.

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2020-12-14 12:25:44 (edited by brad 2020-12-14 13:23:29)

@aaron, thanks for the help. Hmm, I don't know if stepping back would be good... If jayde has health problems that might impact his modding ability like headaches, perhaps it might be a good idea to step down, then say a year or so later once the headaches hopefully clear up, apply to be a mod again.


I'm not saying jaydes' a bad mod, we might have disagreements and all that but honestly I respect the guy, I couldn't do what he does with what sound to me like headaches every day.

I've removed my Harry potter link as I will not be back on this forum. To start your own Harry potter fan fiction collection, download fanficdownloader: https://fanfictiondownloader.net/#/home

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2020-12-14 13:31:53

Brad, ah cotcha.

The past is obviously in the present
Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it

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2020-12-14 14:45:09

@jayjay, I'm glad I got that cleared up smile

I've removed my Harry potter link as I will not be back on this forum. To start your own Harry potter fan fiction collection, download fanficdownloader: https://fanfictiondownloader.net/#/home

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