2020-04-04 13:16:46

@20 and @21

i was meaning copy and tweak your code accordingly. offcourse no need to say examine sites with simillar content of Yours.

2020-04-04 17:01:42

@26
Try this and get back to us, and you'll come away understanding why we're telling you this can't be done.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2020-04-04 18:49:43 (edited by Turkce_Rap 2020-04-04 21:18:20)

@27
i m not new to web, not saying it will be perfectly ok but, u can play with headings, fonts, margins etc and ask someone with sight how it looks, thats what i m trying to say. Although i hadn't deal with css mutch , this is the way i would go thru.

Edit: Accidental spelling error.

2020-04-04 19:01:24

@28
Yes. Which is what I've said. But you would be amazed how fast this turns into asking the sighted person to do it for you.  Got to check the site on all combinations of the following:

Windows+Firefox, Windows+Edge, Windows+Chrome, Windows+Internet Explorer (arguably), Linux+Firefox, Linux+Chrome, Mac+Safari, Mac+Firefox, Mac+Chrome, iOS+Safari, iOS+Firefox (arguably), Android+Chrome, Android+Firefox (arguably).

And you really want multiple screen sizes for each of the desktop platforms in that list.  Fortunately for Android the simulator is probably good enough to keep you needing a lot of different Android tablets.

Anything short of this level of testing and checking and it's going to look bad for someone.  And do notice the size point--You really really need proper constraints these days as well.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2020-04-05 12:26:23

although bootstrap can make it responsive, but you need sighted assistance in any case.
@28, it's not possible. (if you do it, it might not look something appealing as many of the websites which are designed by sighted people are not looking good).
another thing is that you might have list of lists or different things which require different padding etc. then you easily will realize that you can't design it and you'll be screwed.

2020-04-07 09:20:15

@23
Hmm... If you take two people, one blind and one sighted and have them look at a portrait in their respective ways, the sighted person will likely remark on the overlay of color and perspective visually. The blind person will likely appreciate the texture, outlines, description, or sound of the portrait via sonfier. Both people are experiencing the exact same thing,  but in different ways. The fact that a blind person doesn't experience the portrait visually doesn't mean the sensory experiences they have can't translate to creating work that can similarly be appreciated by the sighted, because again, they are experiencing different aspects of the same thing. My point here is when we talk about a shared visual experience, what we should really be saying is a 'shared experience', expressed through one or more sensory modes, ie: visual, auditory, and kinesthetic.

There are blind painters whom by sighted standards are [pretty good], and devised their own approaches to shape, form and color selection, or exhibits of blind photographers like [Sights Unseen]. When I first released BrushTone, it took only a day or two for people to make some rather decent pixel art, color appropriate art no less. So I know people can do it, but the techniques and guides used by sighted people who experience the medium in one way are likely to be less effective for someone who experiences it in another, even if the two may overlap in their final result. Its not perfect, but its a start.

Frontend development though is a bit of an odd medium to be debating artistic rendition when I think about it, if only because of how fluid it can be. A sites content and function are usually the core aspects typically with aesthetics accentuating them, though other aspects of the design can include analytics, monetization, and behavioral psychology for retention and click through based on the model. Other than the technical implementation aspects, that can be a fairly complex affair that doesn't lend well to copy/pasting or surface analysis. But then again some people do go with just two colors and let their content do the talking for them, like anything it depends on the application, and for all the design, metrics, and analytics, they still can't predict what will or won't get market appeal. Do I think people can make an appealing site? Sure, but other than riding on its own merits there are other less obvious aspects to take into consideration than code and artistic aesthetics, and the nature of such sites can be fleeting. It could be interesting to look into and write up abit about the different aspects of it, though some of that may already be covered in the monetization model articles I posted a bit ago by [Ramin] [Shokrizade].

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer

2020-04-07 23:32:09

@30
i agree that we can't do complicated designing but, if we stick to simple way thats enough. the real question is why would we want to do really complicated designs? and again most likely no company would hire a blind person as their front end developperfor sure.

2020-04-08 00:22:32

@31
While sensory substitution may make up for some things in limited contexts, I will concede only once we actually have blind frontend devs.  You can't get the kind of resolution necessary out of any of that stuff.

Also: if you have vision for a while you get some of this experience, if you're doing art you can just shrug and say that it's art and it looks however you want it to, a quick look at articles (as I don't have the time to watch videos right now) suggests that mostly those people also didn't use theory to do what they did. So my points stand.

but I do think experience is really worth highlighting here--even if you have a sensory substitution device you'd need to spend a hell of a lot of time looking at frontends to even be able to reason out things that sighted people get on an intuitive level, and so far as I'm aware none of them can do color and shading, and again: resolution is a problem.

@32
You don't know enough to know what you don't know on this topic. The sorts of things @30 is bringing up are the frontend hello world equivalent. You don't get to just water this down to a "basic design".  What you want to water it down to is no design at all.  The kinds of things in @30 are the kinds of things that sighted people get in an hour or two of work.

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2020-04-08 15:30:12 (edited by visualstudio 2020-04-08 15:31:14)

@32 let me tell you one of my experiences and show you that you are completely wrong:
I designed a simple webpage (really really simple one) with a background color of black and foreground of white (2 different colors).
when I showed that to a sighted person, he complained about it's padding, font, font size, even it's simple coloring
I should tell you that that website was entirely accessible inn terms of accessibility.
in addition, I should tell you that my vision was more in the passed (I could drive a car when I was about 11 or 12 or so with some help (not so much, the guy told me a car is coming and I could see and easily react))
@31, I'm not talking about the art, since Beethoven was somehow death (you might have heard of his musics) and you are right by this
again @32, someone sighted write the html, css stuff and loads it on the browser and checks it easily.
but what happens for someone visually impaired?
how many times we should ask a sighted person to come and tell us his/her apinian?

2020-04-11 22:53:05 (edited by magurp244 2020-04-11 22:56:01)

@34
A more direct answer to your question is the problem that making a website appealing is subjectively arbitrary. Just because the person you asked didn't like the font, font size, padding, or colors, doesn't mean others wouldn't like it, or how many wouldn't like it. This makes the question of making an "appealing" site a moving target, which makes it very hard to give a straight forward answer to your question. This has a lot of parallel's to Art, which is both subjective and fluid to say the least, and which can also be frequently used in frontend development, depending on the application. So, the question instead may be less about making an appealing site, but more a better understanding of common designs conventions and standards.

So, with that in mind the most I can offer is a few suggestions. To help build a better understanding of current conventions and the relationship between visual displays and code, you could try asking people to describe in excruciating detail different kinds of websites, to get a sense of whats out there and what other people are doing for design. Also keep in mind the underlying sites content and function when doing this. You can also have them describe the site your working on to get a better understanding of the relationship between code and display.

Avoid suggestions like "This looks good", or "I like X", or "No thats bad" without explicit explanations and details for why. There is an inherent risk of subjective bias in those kinds of descriptions that you may want to avoid, part of this is finding what you like, and determining that involves having an objective view. Don't let people do the work for you, this is about the learning and experience in the long term, not the immediate task at hand. You can also try using tools like The vOICe or BrushTone for getting a sonified look at different scales and segments of the website, in combination with color filtering to try and observe the layout yourself. There are a few tricks you can use to change the color scheme of the CSS script to help make the padding and layouts easier to parse. Again, keep the sites content and function in mind in relation to these things.

If you have any more questions, we can try talking about it further and see where it goes.


@33
I understand what your trying to say, there are gradients and cirumstances people may be more well suited to than others. But trying to define who is or isn't a frontend dev becomes an inherently slippery slope. What level of complexity of design would qualify as sufficient to be considered a frontend dev? From whom would that validation come from? It may ultimately be besides the point anyway.

Previous visual experience is also a fair point, to a degree. Studies on the spacial cognition of the blind conducted by psychologist John M. Kennedy indicated that people with brief periods of early visual perception had an easier time relating to spacial concepts such as depth, perspective, and the same methodologies the sighted develop over time. You can find reference to his work [here] and [here]. Note however that I said it makes it easier for those with visual experience, not impossible without it, and this is illustrated by the painter [Esref Armagan] who was born blind and learned artistic techniques, including shading, perspective, and color representation, purely through practice and feedback from others. Also keep in mind that i'm not talking about some fancy vague definition of art consisting of abstract or interpretive styles, but discrete anatonmically correct representation.

As for sonifiers, and I don't suggest people rely solely on them as BrushTone also has Braille Display support and other features, is that while the overall resolution is limited, you can "zoom in" on segments of images for greater detail, the equivalent of focusing on a particular part of the image, which is equivalent to some aspects of limited visual perception. The vOICe also has a color filtering system that allows you to isolate a particular color and sonify only that to the exclusion of everything else, other tools like EyeMusic use different musical instruments interlaced to represent up to 5 colors simultaneously. The concept of shading is more of a perceptual interpretation of that information, the use of gradients and spacial reasoning. BrushTone comes with a few other features such as pixel RGB color representation via a series of pitch modulated tones, in addition to the ability to isolate the RGB layers or specify a specific color to sonify, and line scanning. Another advancement to that is Orbit Researches Graphiti, a literal tactile display monitor with variable height pins, haptic feedback, touch display, and color support, Which would all be great if not for the sticker shock.

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer