2020-03-24 22:37:43

Hello,

Yesterday I posted a link to a legal website that allows streaming live tv. I was flag by Liam.
All he said to me is that I know the rules. However I have seen other people do the same thing and not get flag. So how is this against the rules? The site is legal.

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2020-03-24 22:41:23

What did you use?

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2020-03-24 23:50:57

I posted a link to a site allows you to watch tv for free. I was told that I know the rules.
However Liam didn't explain how I broke the rules. What I find funny is that there are people on here posting links to different items such as books, movies and tv shows.
Plus if Liam and the other moderators would have went to (link removed pending review) and browse the site they would have seen that the site is not illegal.
Passing around books, movies, tv shows, music and other items without the copyright holder permission is illegal.

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2020-03-24 23:58:15 (edited by Ethin 2020-03-25 00:07:21)

Yeah, that's hypocritical. Talk about jumping the gun... the post in the public discipline topic provides no evidence for the warning either, nor is there a link to the actual topic.
Edit: just checked the website. No evidence to suggest it hosts copyrighted material of any kind. (It hosts autoplays of ESPN and such, but there's no evidence to suggest that that's not the official stream of ESPN, for example.)

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2020-03-25 00:09:03

Agree. While I respect the mods, "you know the rules", in my opinion, isn't a very informative answer. Yes, they may know the rules, but if the site was legal (cannot be proven, as the link was removed), but without any sort of context (i.e. verifying its legality), it does seem like a very impulsive decision.

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

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2020-03-25 00:22:40

That is why I reposted the link in this thread. Here is the link again.
(link removed pending review)

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2020-03-25 00:23:54

The Mods need to get better with checking the websites before doing chit like this.

2020-03-25 00:33:55

also @1 thanks for the website as I was looking for it yesterday

2020-03-25 02:20:26

Moderation:
I'm going to be removing the link (pending more thorough review), and issuing a caution. Keep reading, because I can explain.

The caution is because you reposted the link before getting any sort of explanation. Generally speaking, if we ask you not to do something, and we remove a link or whatnot, then you really shouldn't be reposting it before you get confirmation that somebody jumped the gun. That's an excellent way to escalate the situation. Please note: objecting to a moderation decision is perfectly well and good, but doing the same thing that prompted the decision in the first place is straight-up antagonistic.
Imagine the following scenario:
Kid: Fuck that shit! This stupid fucking game is--
Mom: Stop it, kid! You know the rules!.
Kid: Stop what? You mean saying fuck and shit and yelling at my game? Well I was only saying those swear words because I was mad. You should be more clear. Until then, FUCK FUCK FUCK!
I know this probably looks immature, but work with me here. If you are flat-out convinced that a moderation decision is in error, bringing it up to us is a good thing. But by just doing the same thing again, you're playing for power. This is a very bad idea. Don't do it. It will never end well.
That's why you've got a caution. It's not a warning because this site may well be generally okay, and if it is, then Liam's choice might have been hasty, at which point we'll let you know and you can go ahead and share the link. But your power game is worth a caution, regardless of the validity of your claim. Let us vet it first.

Anyone posting this link again before explicit say-so is given will receive a warning, because now the situation has been clarified. I'm not kidding.

Now, as to the site itself:
It looks dodgy, but I don't have any strong proof for or against. The "about us" link leads to a page which says, in fairly sloppy English, that this site doesn't actually host any videos, and only links to sites which do, and as such can't be held legally responsible. I should note that this is not a guarantee of safety. Torrenting sites (which I won't name here, but think pirates and demons, for starters) have a disclaimer saying much the same thing; this doesn't get them off the hook. So here's what I'm going to do. Given that this is a fishy-looking website, the links will be taken down for now, and I'll come back as soon as I can with a determination on whether or not the site is able to be shared.

Remember that a caution is not a punishment, it's just sort of a heads-up, so no one at this stage has actually been punished. It also goes without saying that if the site is determined to be safe by the rules, then mentioning or linking it is totally okay, and no warnings will be incoming for doing so.

Please also remember: we're not going to be arguing about whether certain things should or should not be permissible here, by which I mean I'm not going to trot out the piracy arguments or anything else. Please accept that the decision made is final, but as such, it won't be made lightly, either.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-03-25 02:30:11

Okay, I've done some research, and here's what I've found. anyone else who wants to chime in here and be part of this process, go ahead.

The site lets you stream HBO (I just tried it for 30 seconds or so). I'm reasonably sure you can't get HBO for free legally. This is strike 1. This is the only one I've tried so far.
Another questionable bit? At the bottom of the page, it asks you to download a VPN in order to support the site. Lots of people do perfectly legal things with VPNs, but lots of people like to hide with them as well. Combine the two, and what do you get? Shady.

This is what I've found. It's not damning, but to me at least, it's questionable.

If you want to chip in here, go for it, but please don't use the "it's not hosted there, so it's fine" argument. If all you have to do is click one link and the page itself runs the content - which is pretty much what I saw - then that's dodgy enough that we may not want to deal with it.
Reserving final judgment for a bit, but if you want to be part of this discussion, please be productive and bring evidence, not just opinions.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-03-25 03:41:02

This is becoming something of a standard where dodging bullets is concerned.  Basically anyone thinks they can write something like the following and get away without consequence while looking generous to the world at large:
*Domain Parking. Disclaimer: *maintains no relationship with third party advertisers. Reference to any specific service or trade mark is not controlled by * nor does it constitute or imply its association, endorsement or recommendation.
Translation? We don't care what you do with this info, so long as you don't blame us for what you do with it or what it does to you after you've used it.  Meanwhile, we just want you to know that we're not telling you to go do something illegal, but in the event that you want to do something illegal and get away with it... Here ya go!
So what is the moderation staff of ag net supposed to do?  Should they just let this kind of thing run rampant because you want to spread it?  Nope, sorry kids, but just because you won't exercise common sense doesn't mean the staff won't try to for the safety of the community as a whole, not the pleasures of a select few.
And for the record?  I would just like to point out that what you do with your free time is entirely on you; I honestly have no say nor do I care to where such a thing is concerned.  When you come out here, however, and choose to distribute it without care for what might happen as the result of said distribution, you're more of a hindering hand than a helping one.  If the OP was able to obtain this information outside of this forum, I'm sure others can do the same, without having to use this forum as a vehicle by which to get it done.
And to take this even further, I'm pretty sure Jayde, Liam, Aaron or anyone else who deals with these issues on the forum as moderators/admins could care less if you all go and use that service to your heart's content.  The big question is, why on earth do you feel the need to post it out here?

I do not know what my future holds, but I do know who holds my future.

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2020-03-25 03:42:56

My personal belief is that it's just another shot fired in the silly war against the application of rule 3.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-03-25 03:48:43

I just appreciate that you cleared this up, Jayde.

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

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2020-03-25 03:53:10

If you are going to flag me then you need to flag everyone else that is giving links to content such as movies, books, tv shows and music.
Passing around those kind of content is illegal. This site is no different then blind mice movie vault.
It is not illegal to use that site. People advertise vpn on tv and radio. If this was also illegal I believe that on another forum that I am on would have said something to me.
The next time I see someone on here passing around content for free then I will say something about it. The moderators better flag them like y'all are flaging me.

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2020-03-25 04:31:59

Would you care to point out where someone is getting away with passing info like this, please?
Quite obviously, this is not personal to you, and shouldn't be taken as such. I really don't care who the offender is; it shouldn't be happening.
Blind Mice stuff is just as questionable as anything else, as it offers links to audio-described movies for free when most people would otherwise have to pay for them. Again, we're not having this argument. It's not allowed here; simple as that.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-03-25 07:49:58

Jayde, I'll save you the trouble of looking at this. It's just like a pirating website, but in the form of streaming TV shows. How do I know this? I went to the website on my phone, and within 5 secondss it showed a survey telling me I could win a free visa giftcard. I couldn't get the site to show normally no matter how many times I visited it. I'm not too concerned about my phone being compromised; I have an IPhone and it's not jailbroken, but I wouldn't recommend it personally.

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I don't mind if you disagree with my opinions, but if you're going to dismiss something I say, please explain why you don't agree with me. You don't have to, but it helps me understand you better. I don't like when I write out my thoughts about something and try to make people understand my opinions, only to be told I'm wrong and not be told why someone thinks that.

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2020-03-25 08:31:01 (edited by connor142 2020-03-25 08:31:29)

So quick question @10 and @11. This site pretty much lets you travel to other places that stream tv illegally, correct? And you don't want things on this forum that even let you access other places or methods to do things like that, am I still on the right trail? So why are we even still allowed to discuss vpns? If this is how the rules are applied, aren't vpns the spawn of evil as well, since you *might* use them to hide illegal activities? Is torrent software something to avoid and something that no one should discuss here just because people *can* use it to distribute pirated programs? How far will this go in the end?

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Ach du Scheiße, das glaubt man mir nie...

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2020-03-25 08:53:33

@10, i would really like to do research in this site. However, you've took down the links. smile

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2020-03-25 09:20:04

and what about (link removed by administration)? is this also not a site that publishes free audio described movies we should be paying for? I am not going to complain about the site, since i am using it and i won't stop using it. but mods are way to harsh... we can't even talk about VPN's any more since it "might " appear shaidy... nah!

best regards
never give up on what ever you are doing.

2020-03-25 14:19:43

Moderation:
Ashleygrobler04, this is an official warning. You know full well that posting a link to that site is not allowed here. I'm removing the link. Do not escalate this further.

Now, to everyone else:

Look, obviously you're going to do what you want when you aren't here. We don't care about that. It's your decision to make, your computer or other tech to risk if it comes to that. But I think you know full well that arguments such as those made by Connor are made in bad faith (see, there's that phrase again).
It looks like the site in question, the one I took down originally, the one that started all of this in the first place, is pretty sketchy. There is very little you have to do after hitting that site to access material illegally. Generally, you're probably going to that site because you want for free what you should normally have to pay for. As such, intent is taken into account; if you are spreading this link without knowledge, then you may be ignorant of the ramifications of your actions but need to be more careful in future, while if you're fully cognizant of what you're doing, then you are in essence trying to dance around rule 3 and share ways to access material illegally.
We've said this isn't allowed. We've said that intent will be taken into account for precisely this reason.
Now, take a VPN, for instance. Yes, it can absolutely be used to do all kinds of shady shit. Sure it can. But it, in and of itself, is not a problem. But you'll note how when new users sign up, we require that they not be using a VPN when they do it? This is because it's easy to evade bans with it. We'll enforce that as needed. What I'm saying here is that while both the site in question and a VPN can lead to illegal activity, one is far more direct than the other. If you're using a VPN, if you choose one day to download and set one up, you are not necessarily thinking, "Okay, illegal streaming, here we come". You might be, but we can't prove that one way or another. Whereas, if you access sites like the ones we're taking down, you're not there to smell the flowers or to audit their HTML or buy their merch; it's reasonably certain that you're there for the same reason everyone else is there: to watch for free what you're normally being asked to pay for.

So let me say it one more time, for those in the back:

Take your own intent into account when you post links or discuss things that lead to illegal material, or material that we've deemed unsuitable. Ask yourself the following questions:
1. Am I providing a direct link to illegal material?
2. Am I describing a site, service or process without linking, with the intent of providing a user access to illegal material?
3. Do I have a vested interest of some kind in the providing of this information?
4. Am I, consciously or unconsciously, trying to step around rule 3 because I think it's unfair but think I should be able to share these things?
5. Is the site, service or process I'm describing linked to illegal action or material in the first place?

And if you can answer yes to any of those questions, then don't make the reference or post.

There are many other ways that this info can be shared, if you folks want. We are asking you to limit one manner of sharing. One. That's all. We don't care what you do off the forum, or out of the public eye. We're not the morality police. But we aren't allowing this. It's just that simple. We've drawn pretty clear lines in the sand at this point, and there is really no sense in arguing further.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-03-25 14:27:22

I don't understand why you guys using illegal services like this can't just use something like Pludo TV to watch TV. I'm pretty sure it allows you to watch free TV, and it's 100% legal. You can search for it on the IOS App Store, and there's no risk of getting dodgy surveys or anything of the sort.

Signature start:
I don't mind if you disagree with my opinions, but if you're going to dismiss something I say, please explain why you don't agree with me. You don't have to, but it helps me understand you better. I don't like when I write out my thoughts about something and try to make people understand my opinions, only to be told I'm wrong and not be told why someone thinks that.

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2020-03-25 14:31:14 (edited by omer 2020-03-25 14:40:40)

if mods are going to warn something in a popilated place
"you know the rules" explenation is not going to help . its saying something like, screw you i fuckin dont care
i'm not poiting the gun at anyone else but you know if you gonna do something, do it right

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2020-03-25 14:41:23 (edited by UltraLeetJ 2020-03-25 14:42:06)

connor142 wrote:

So quick question @10 and @11. This site pretty much lets you travel to other places that stream tv illegally, correct? And you don't want things on this forum that even let you access other places or methods to do things like that, am I still on the right trail? So why are we even still allowed to discuss vpns? If this is how the rules are applied, aren't vpns the spawn of evil as well, since you *might* use them to hide illegal activities? Is torrent software something to avoid and something that no one should discuss here just because people *can* use it to distribute pirated programs? How far will this go in the end?

this totally misses the point. Let me ask another question... aren't we allowed to even talk about knives because someone just might stab themselves or pierce other people with them and kill them?

yet, search the forum for the work knife (I'll wait) and see what kinds of discussions exist with it. Hint: no one has gotten disciplined in those so far.

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2020-03-25 14:42:08

Actually, no, it's not.
It's saying precisely what it's saying, albeit in a terse way.
By this point, anyone who's been here for any real length of time should know the rules. They're pretty clear, most of them. If you break a rule, ignorance of that rule is not an excuse.
Could Liam have phrased it better? Been politer? Sure he could, but I want you to consider a few things. None of these are excuses, but they are factors:
1. We're all human, and some of us (not me, thankfully, not yet anyway) are dealing with some pretty stress-inducing stuff. I'm not speaking to what Liam is or isn't dealing with, but perhaps his shortness and lack of explanation has its genesis in stress?
2. More importantly, people tend to try and test this rule, like, all the time. It happens far, far too often, in a big-picture sense. We're sick of it. Past a certain point, we don't bother explaining ourselves because, uh, rules. They're there. They've been made clear. We've argued, talked, cajoled, explained, and still people try and push. So past a certain point it's like, "you know what you did, now stop it, for pity's sake". And you know whose fault that is? Hint: it's not ours, or at the least, it's not ours alone.

If you expect us to be overly gentle, kind and considerate at all times, even when folks are deliberately trying to sneak around the rules we've put in place, I feel like maybe you're expecting too much of us. We try to be nice, we try to explain, but sometimes that doesn't happen as clearly or as gently as it should.

In the last year or so, do you know what the most thankless part of this job has been, for me at least? The repeated, nearly incessant reinforcement of rules which are, for the most part, common sense. People feel that they have a right to break rules, to push, to argue, to wheedle, or when all else fails, to either brute-force the situation or get sneaky. Sorry, folks; it doesn't work, and we aren't stupid. We know what you're doing, and in most cases, we can even infer what you're intending, and we're going to act on that. If you then call our methods into question because maybe we were a little shorter or less explanatory with you than we've been in the past, take a good hard look at your behaviour, and that of other forum members. No, we shouldn't be abusing you or attacking you, and no, we're not just hand-waving our actions as fine because it's a tough, thankless job. But if and when we err on the side of shortness, curtness or even sharpness from time to time, please understand that it is you, and other folks as well as you, who have contributed to the problem. It's us, too; we get tired of the same old arguments and having to enforce the same rules when people think they're above them, or should be.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2020-03-25 15:28:18

Dan, I just think that those surveys appear randomly as adware on other sites as well.

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

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