2020-02-29 20:54:06

Not just NVDA, JAWS seems to read the whole log again and again too.

Hail, Daughter of Hatred. Creator of Sanctuary. Hail...Lilith.

2020-03-01 02:58:12 (edited by Dark 2020-03-01 02:59:23)

Btw, just played through a couple more times, and either things are a little farer as regards one hit kills, or I'm learning to bale out early enough big_smile.
The only thing that does occur to me, is either I am playing very slowly, or character level 101 is pretty insane! considering I've prestige 20 times, got to max scene 286 and my max level is 23.

If retirement mechanics are intended to unlock new stuff, either I am doing something wrong, or it will take a stupidly! long time to get to character level 100, particularly considering players won't earn much for any failed prestieges, and there are occasions it's wiser to bail out early and take the bonuses.

Maybe character level 50, or even 30 would be a little more doable? or is it just that I'm always pushing to go as high as I feel is safe, and a better strategy is to farm at lower levels in shorter runs (I tend to make the same mistake with trimps).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-03-01 04:20:19

hi everyone. i am playing this game using safari. but, i still don't know how to save and load game. can some safari users please suggest me how to save and load the game?

hi. i am a dark matter miner. yeah, i am setting mines that when something steps on it, it will explode and release huge amount of dark matters. oh sorry... i am a slave miner, i am mining dark matters...

2020-03-01 04:39:11

there is no way to save the game in the middle of the game, you have to end it by eating the humble pie then your game will be save.

2020-03-01 04:47:52

hmm. then how can i load my saved game?

hi. i am a dark matter miner. yeah, i am setting mines that when something steps on it, it will explode and release huge amount of dark matters. oh sorry... i am a slave miner, i am mining dark matters...

2020-03-01 07:44:40

also i have a suggestionon this game.
i know it is dungeon crawl, so no wonder the areas are caves, graveyards, abandoned castles and more. but, i feel like i am imprisoned. so can you please add a areas like forests, ruined city, or jungle or ice land? please consider my suggestion. second suggestion is can you please add a weapons such as bows or ranged weapons and spells? i am enjoying this game and i am having so fun.

hi. i am a dark matter miner. yeah, i am setting mines that when something steps on it, it will explode and release huge amount of dark matters. oh sorry... i am a slave miner, i am mining dark matters...

2020-03-01 16:12:11

@music097, the game saves with a cookie in your browser. I don't know how Safari handles cookies, but you might want to check that, since some browsers and some antivirus programs delete cookies by default.

Also, when you begin the game, or when you eat humble pie and go back to the start you'll see a text box with lots of code in it.
You can copy that into a text file, and then copy and paste it back into the game. This is also how to carry on your saved game on multiple devices, as well as have a handy backup save.

there are already some different areas, EG there was the winter wonderland, and now there is the spring garden, and hopefully others will come in the future. I also believe Malachi mentioned spell books at one stage and perhaps some different classes like wizard or ranger.

Ranged weapons could be fun, especially if they came as an extra to current battling rather than as a replacement, but we'll see.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-03-02 00:19:29

dark wrote:

the only bug I've seen thus far, is that for some reason now when incoming text is spoken by NVDA, it speaks the entire log, rather than just the most recent entry.

Weird, I didn't change any of that part. I'll take a look. I'm at a conference for work for the next week, so hopefully it's not too annoying to deal with in the meantime.

dark wrote:

though you might consider either changing the death sound to something a bit more generic which would suit any man/woman/thing you happen to slay, or to at least have general category death sounds based on the gender/physiology of the enemy.

Good call. I tried to find the most generic death sound that I could, but I might have to get a handful of them and assign certain sounds to certain enemies.

dark wrote:

Btw, I was also wondering about difficulties, since what is to stop someone playing the game on an easier difficulty just to pound through extra levels and get to the retirement quicker

That's a good question, I didn't really consider that. I guess there is nothing stopping you from doing that. I guess there isn't really anything stopping anyone from beating any other game on easy. But I was thinking that medium and hard should probably give out increased XP

dark wrote:

You might consider giving the lower level difficulties an upper scene cap, something like 100 for easy and 200 for normal (though I've not played on the lower difficulties for a while so can't remember how these stack up). Once players hit that cap they're given a free humble pie, and maybe a stat bump and achievement to, to encourage players to progress onward.

Indeed, you could either consider giving these more fantasy region names to reflect the relative length of the journey, say by asking a player to journey across a region (easy), land (normal), or world (hard), or alternatively by making the difficulties titles or tests a player could under take, EG adventurer for easy, squire for normal and knight errant for hard, with the player earning respective achievements and getting accompanying congrats messages:
For example, for completing easy/adventurer difficulty a player could be told:
"Your adventuring career has brought you a small amount of fame, you have earned the silver spurs of a squire. Now go forth squire and prove yourself against stronger challenges."
Whilst completing normal/squire difficulty: "You have earned considerable fame and fortune as a valiant squire, and have  been dubbed a knight, sworn to battle evil and protect the weak. But the world is wide and full of dangers, and your true legacy is only just beginning."

Similar congrats messages could be added if the region/land/world option is used for difficulty as well.


The only thing that does occur to me, is either I am playing very slowly, or character level 101 is pretty insane! considering I've prestige 20 times, got to max scene 286 and my max level is 23.

There is a lot to unpack here. One of the reasons that level 100 was chosen is that is when the enemies run out. It was pretty taxing coming up with the enemies that there are in the game, of which there are currently 155 different enemies, each with between 5 and 10 variants. So I was running pretty thin by level 100. I honestly didn't know how far every one was, On one of the save games someone shared I saw that they were level 46. It might be good to use 50 instead. I had assumed people were already getting to level 100ish.

music097 wrote:

i know it is dungeon crawl, so no wonder the areas are caves, graveyards, abandoned castles and more. but, i feel like i am imprisoned. so can you please add a areas like forests, ruined city, or jungle or ice land? please consider my suggestion. second suggestion is can you please add a weapons such as bows or ranged weapons and spells? i am enjoying this game and i am having so fun.

As dark mentioned, there are 2 new zones that are outside, or at least partially outside. But these are seasonal events. I do plan to have generic outside zones that are not specifically dungeons, but like you said, its a dungeon crawling game, so there probably wont ever be a ton of them. It'll always be mostly dungeons.

Spells are definitely planned and will be part of the class system. Enemies will also have spells. Ranged weapons are something that I've been toying around with. They are weird given the combat system because of the turn based nature of it and there is no real grid to move around on. Ranges are very abstract. But, one way I thought to do it is give your character a ranged weapon slot, where you can fire it basically as a first attack, before the enemy has a chance to attack. So you'd have limited ammo and essentially get one or more free shots off each time, assuming you didn't get ambushed.

2020-03-02 01:44:06 (edited by Dark 2020-03-02 01:59:54)

Hope your conference goes well.

Tweaking xp and/or giving a max scene cap for easy and  medium difficulties might be a good idea, I just tried on easy and I was getting one hit kills at scene 149, also weirdly started at a more advanced scene relative to my highest scene reached which was odd.

50 for retirement seems fair enough to me, since it'll take work to achieve but not be insaaaaaane!.

whilst the game is dungeon crawl, I personally rather like the idea of adding more outside zones, not in terms of say generic wilderness players had to progress over, but in terms of specific other places players could enter with an evil reputation and a definite target in mind, EG the dead marshes or mirkwood from middle earth, after all how many fantasy stories have a creature living out in the mountains/forest/marsh/desert which people have to slay.

You could also consider adding a few rooms of alternative outside environments after each dungeon and before the next rather than going from one dungeon automatically to another.

As for ranged weapons, I was having a think about this myself, since if ranged weapons were essentially a free attack, they wouldn't really effect the game as much other than making your character have a slightly easier time, the way firebombs work now.

so, how about making ranged weapons a trade off system.

I'd suggest making ranged weapons an equipable item in the offhand slot, however ranged weapons don't have the same bonus attributes as armour or conventional weapons.
Each weapon, in addition to it's level also has a "reload" stat. Light weight weapons such as shortbows or slings would have a low stat, where as high damage, high weight weapons like crossbows,  bolas or arquibusses have a high reload stat.

At the start of combat, you can fire off your ranged weapon by hitting the "shoot" button, damage dependent upon the weapons' level and type, and chance to hit being calculated based on the character, enemy and weapon just as melee hits are (though i'd guess luck and air bonuses would increase it).

When you shoot, the enemy has no chance to hit back and yes you get a free hit.
If you hit the "fight" button, you attack with your melee weapon and combat goes on as normal, however You can freely try shooting a second, third or however many more times, however, for every shot you fire, the game performs a roll based on your reload stat and the enemy's chance to hit.

if you win, you get another shot off. If however the enemy wins, then the enemy closes with you, and you receive an "incombered" debuff for so many attacks based on the reload stat, to represent the fact that the enemy has closed with you you with your unloaded ranged weapon in hand, and now your struggling to defend yourself.

For every shot you fire, the enemy's chance to close with you growws.
so, ranged combat becomes a game of knowing when to quit whilst your ahead, and judging when it's best to stick at range and pepper your enemy with arrows, and when it's time to put your bow away and close in for the kill.
This would also tie in to the idea of ranged based classes such as ranger or the like, who would obviously get bonuses to their shoot rolls.

In addition, if you wanted to make things fair, enemies could also have access to the same mechanics, getting a couple of free attacks at range at the start of fights if they were lucky (and provided the player didn't shoot back of course), though losing out if the player managed to close with them by hitting the fight button.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-03-02 02:05:12 (edited by malachi1616 2020-03-02 02:30:29)

I really like the idea of having the ranged weapons be offhand items. That solves some issues I had with them in general. So it would be a trade off like you said, since youd have to sacrifice some defense with a shield, or extra max damage with a dagger. Offhand is something I want to rework in general because I want to add two handed weapons into the game as well. So I think this is a good start to think about how things can be classified.

The prefight attacks started out as a rogue class ability like sneak attack. Which will probably still be the way it is. Rogues will probably have a set chance to score a free hit at the beginning, before combat starts. Enemies will be able to ambush you in the same way. Also, some enemies might have ranged attacks that trigger a return attack when you shoot. One of the challenges there is for screen real estate for sighted players. Because of the number of buttons on screen right now. Also, I guess this affects mobile VI players also? I'm not sure how VI users play mobile games, how buttons are accessed etc.

I'll mull it over, these are good ideas. I'll have a lot of mental downtime here during boring presentations (like right now lol), just no time to do any coding.

2020-03-02 02:29:44

Two handed weapons would be cool, especially if they actually had some advantages.
It always irritates me that in so many rpgs, either because of weapon weight or multiple attack skills, two handed weapons are never worth using.

If your worried about too many buttons, one idea might be to have an abilities tab from which a player could select an ability or spell, and then just a general "use" button next to the fight button, after all changing tabs is relatively easy and most of the time, players will be just using the same thing again.

also as a more miner detail, is there any chance of please changing when the low energy alert pops up?

At the moment it seems to be based on a percentage of your total energy, but since at the moment I have 51 energy and it tells me "my energy is getting low" when I have 15 left it's less useful.

It would be more helpful if it showed up at a set amount no matter the max energy, say below 10 energy. or maybe stick in a "your energy is getting low" warning at ten energy, and a "you are nearing exhaustion" warning at five, after all most of the time you lose one energy per action anyway.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-03-02 02:45:18

The low energy alert happens at 25%, and then that alert clears once you get over 50% energy back. I can make it be a set amount instead, which makes sense because energy costs don't scale with your progress like damage and hit points do.

Btw, I have some new ideas about energy, thinking about completely revamping that system to make energy and food less of just an annoyance and more of a resource you need to manage. So that might change in the next update.


For ranged weapons, what if the ammunition was a consumable item in your inventory? So you use it to fight a weapon? You'd have to toggle back and forth between pack and events, might get annoying.

2020-03-02 04:38:05

I'll be interested to see the food revamp, especially if it ties into crafting.
One idea i've seen used for food/resting a couple of times, but sadly not enough was giving players buffs and debuffs.
So, when a player was welll fed or well rested they'd get a buff to combat and other actions. Similarly, when a player was starving or exhausted they'd get a debuff. The debuff wasn't fatal, and the buff wasn't absolutely necessary all of the time, but it felt a good bit more realistic than having players just suddenly die due to lack of food or rest, after all you could carry on a fair ways without food or sleep, just not too well.

This also let players have crafted food items with better stat bonuses, IE more time of feeling well fed.

As regards ammo and the pack, I'm less a fan of this idea, since firstly it would mean every piece of amunition took up one pack space, which would be another disadvantage to use of a bow as opposed to other offhand items, quite apart from having to find the items when you've got a very full pack.


If it would be inconvenient to add an extra button to use an offhand item or ability, then maybe addd a "quiver" tab, with buttons for ammo in there, since then at least players would find all their ammo in one place.

I'm guessing this is how spells are planned to work, and maybe other systems like crafting or class abilities too, with separate tabs similar to the current "pack" or "gear" tabs, and buttons within those tabs to do things.

If your going down that route, another idea might be to use the area tab.
Currently you can inspect monsters within that tab, maybe you could also add buttons within that tab to do things to monsters outside the main combat display as well.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-03-02 07:13:58 (edited by malachi1616 2020-03-02 07:14:25)

This is sort of in line with what i was thinking with the food, essentially lowering your damage by a percent based on your fatigue, so you have to keep your food topped up in order to keep doing your maximum damage. Normal food wouldn't buff you but crafted food would.

Good points about the ammo. I'll have to stew on it a bit.

Yeah the spells or other abilities would probably their own  tab

2020-03-02 08:02:54

I like the idea of food advantages being percentile based, however if the effect of food is just to negatively effect a player's damage by a percentage, then all that will happen is a player will eat more often, or, if food availability is generally reduced in the game, that a player will simply live with the debuff and eat whenever they can.

It might therefore be good to include some food buffing items when this system comes into effect so players will be able to play tactically as well, and rest up before big fights etc, even if crafted food is still a ways in development.

For example, how about giving players a lootable cooking pan or other item.
When used, it works like a puzzle box, a player expends fatigue for a chance of cooking a meal.
If done correctly however, a player gets a meal item which they can use later to gain a handy buff.

Btw, just played another prestiege on medium, and yes, this definitely needs a fix in terms of difficulty tweaking. I got to scene 342 and player levl 29 thanks to a couple of handy puzzle boxes.
I mainly stopped because with the entire event log being spoken, it was taking a bit too long to speak each action, more than because I needed to bail out.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-03-02 08:06:39

I'll try to look at the event log thing tomorrow in my hotel room after the conference to see if I can fix that. Although at the moment I can't think of why that would suddenly be happening. I confess though, that in the last round of updates I did not test with NVDA, because I hadn't touched any of the code that handles that part.

The food thing I've been wrestling with for a long time, thats why it wasn't already implemented. It was one of the first improvements I wanted to make, just haven't landed on a perfect solution yet.

2020-03-03 00:10:37 (edited by malachi1616 2020-03-03 00:18:19)

Looks like this might be a Chrome issue. I wouldn't be surprised if Google released an update that changed the way they handle aria tags. I can't find anything online about it, but I do have an idea for a work around. This might take a while to fix, if you want to play in the mean time and the log reading is too annoying, Firefox seems to be working great. Oh also, if you have the "New events at top of log" setting checked, the reader will start with the last event, then you can cancel the read back after the first event.

On a side note, is there a quick key to pause NVDA read back? I've been closing it and reopening it every time, or just mashing the shift key every time it talks.

2020-03-03 00:51:21

interesting that it's a chrome issue. Restarting nvda speech? yee gods that's a long way around. just hit control key, or heck pretty much anything else.
Also note that you might be experiencing more or less lag with the NVDA voice depending upon what voice your using and your system. I have Scansoft vocaliser which is a commercial voice, though I had relatively good results with microsoft's 64 bit george voice when I last tried it.


One rather simple way around might be to just change the speaking of the event log to cut off after the first few items, since I'm guessing the problem with the lag is that NVDA (and presumably other screen readers too), are being told to process a huge amount of text at once, one reason it didn't become a problem until post scene 280 or so.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-03-03 03:57:35 (edited by malachi1616 2020-03-03 08:20:59)

For pausing NVDA I mean like turn it off temporarily, like put it in standby mode or something. Control just stops it from talking until the next event, but if you click on something again it starts back up. At least with the default controls. What i mean is just pause it until I tell it to start talking again.

For the log, basically, the way its supposed to work is an element that is marked with an aria-live tag of polite or assertive will communicate changes to the screen reader after the page loads. Normally, the screen reader only reads static text unless otherwise told about dynamic changes. I was using this behavior for the event log. So when I added an event to it, it spoke only that event, because that's the only thing that changed.

Well, now, it seems like Chrome thinks the whole log changes every time I add to it, where Firefox correctly identifies that only that one little part changed (I haven't tested Edge or Safari yet to see which side they fall on).

One way that I can get around this is to put only the most current event in the log and replace what is in there. When you use the reload log button to read back the contents, I'll put the whole log in (which is really just the last 50 entries, it doesnt store more than that) so that it reads everything in the order you choose based on your settings. Then when a new event happens, it'll replace the whole log again and so forth.

The only downside to this workaround is that you wouldn't be able to navigate down through the log using arrowkeys, but I'm not sure if anyone is doing that or not. I'm assuming you are though.

2020-03-03 16:33:16

How do i access the shortcut keys with firefox again.

Who am I? Simply me!

2020-03-03 17:30:54

In firefox its alt plus shift plus access key

2020-03-03 17:52:29

To temporarily silence nvda, you can use insert plus s to cycle the speech modes between off, beeps, and on.

2020-03-03 21:12:13

KenshiraTheTrinity wrote:

To temporarily silence nvda, you can use insert plus s to cycle the speech modes between off, beeps, and on.

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for.

2020-03-03 22:31:15

@Malachi, if you open NVDA settings with NVDA N (that's insert by default), you can not only poke around in settings but also find a handy commands reference guide in the help section too.

Oh and for the record, since most people I imagine are using their arrow keys to read the page itself, I doubt people will be using them on the log, so glad there is a work around for that.

I confess on a broader level my past experiences with firefox were not good, andwhilst that was many versions ago, I heard of more recent issues, hence why I chose chrome when time came to pick a new browser.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2020-03-03 22:48:09

No problem. Ill have a fix up soon, ive got a way to both get around chromes issue and preserve the ability to traverse the log. However, the hotel firewall is blocking FTP on their wifi, so i cant release the update until i get back.