2009-07-18 15:24:52

hi. i will write my opinions and thoughts about audiogames here. we thinked about it with one my very good friend. so listen, and please do not take it as disturbing tha peace.
for first maibe i should to ask, whi are audiogames, so.... good? bad? i dont know. for second: this interesting thing. i am nervous from this, that audiogame producers, are making audiogames, like wackamole, or wordgames, or something like this similar. because: when someone sighted asks you "what are you playing""what is for blind""is any good game for blind?" and you must sadly unswer: "oh, we are playing with buzzing creatures, or we are playing with words". and sighted people have a looooooot of better games, like gta series needforspeed series racing games, or manymanymany others. i think, that we are discriminated in that point. only a few games are quite kool, i can for example tell: misteries of ancients, blindadrenaline games, audioquake(cause its similar as in normal world counterstrike) with similar possibilities. and maibe shades of doom. its all decent games. others...?... and for last, the pricing of the game. whi i must pay for example20 usd for short 6 level containing game, or above? its i think, toooo.... hmmm, i dont know. its not fair for 20 usd if i am a producer of games, iwill make something better, longer, or so. ?so? your opinions? and again,. sorry for disturbing tha golden peace.     michael

f.a.t.h.e.r

2009-07-19 02:20:19

I've heard things like this a lot. While I can understand your frustration there are the following issues -

Audio game "companies" are generally one man operations, thus complex games are difficult at best. The audio games are also not their primary job, limiting their available time. They also aren't "professional" games developers, meaning they have less breadth of developmental experience in the field.

Prices are difficult. Mainstream games can expect to sell thousands, even if they are considered a miserable failure. Audio games would do well to sell one thousand by contrast. When you're selling many times as many individual copies of the game you can afford to have a smaller margin on each.

I'll repeat, I share your frustration I really do. Sadly though the solution isn't quite so simple.

I'll also
point out that Quake is now about 13 or 14 years old. As excellent as the project was, it doesn't compare to games being produced just ten years ago. The variety of weapons is pretty poor, and it lacks secondary fire modes. Yes you have 8 weapons to choose from, but there is little difference between the two shotguns or the two nailguns apart from their power level. Luckily Quake is very customisable however, which increases its value to the AG community.

Edit:
Since this is game related I've moved it to the general game discussion.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-07-19 02:32:38

No disturbing the piece here at all bucklee, ---- this is afterall what this forum is for, discussion about games.

Myself, i view buying audiogames as almost a charitable act. It's me saying "I see the amount of time you've put into this" to the developer. That's why while I won't buy any game which doesn't appeal to me and I don't intend to play, I am fairly lenient about audiogames, and if I vaguely think I can enjoy a particular game, ----- like those from Bsc games for example, I'll buy it as a way of supporting the devs.

One thing you can be certain of though Buclee, is that iff we the players are fully aware of the short comings in games, the developers are equally certain about it, ---- this is why people like Che martin or Tom ward work so hard on in game features for their games.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-07-19 14:59:30

yes. i know. but, lets see the jediquake mod, this mod advances the possibilities of old quake and when u install this or overkill mod, the old boring quake game, can be challenging, funny, interesting... these mods have a lot of inprovements, advanced weaponry, and other griffs. and for sec. yes. maibe that its too hard produce an good game, but, is it really so hard, program some sound effects, or be just little bit creative? e.g. i dont want blame tom ward, but whi is he putting outh thousands games "misteries" "series" i think the story is in 95% the same. and almost i forgot. i am frustrated, cause when i write to some game developers one email, with my questions, they will not unswer. i dont mean all. e.g. vipgameszone is in this category. its the best, that all others are unswering. not the same day, as you write, but maibe later. but take vipgameszone, they not unswered never.

f.a.t.h.e.r

2009-07-19 17:34:07

Jedi quake is A, a mod on top of the actual quake game, ---- allbeit a rather good one, and B, uses sounds directly from the starwars films. if a commercial developer tried to use those sounds, lucus entertainment would tdo very nasty legal things to them.

Also, creating a mod is not like creating a game from scractch. A friend of mine, who actually has an msc in software design picked up a book on games programming with the intention of learning how to create games (graphical ones, at least at first unfortunately), and the very first chapter was headed "Game programming is hard!" the second being "Game programming is very! hard!"

As to Vip gameszone, well in general they seem to have gone quiet lately for some reason or other, they used to be okay to contact but I'm not sure whats going on with them, ---- particularly in terms of their games. 

Just because one dev is not great for answering questions though, don't start thinking all are.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-07-19 20:56:00

There was a time when Lucasarts apparently shut down any and all unofficial fan web sites for Star Wars under copyright laws, so it's lucky they have eased up on that in recent years otherwise the Quake mod would be done for. It also doesn't as far as I know add secondary fire modes for weapons, which can add a lot of interest since you can do different things with one weapon without switching. Quake was well known for its moddability even just a year or two after its release, with huge numbers of mods existing. There were even air combat and car racing mods created.

As to the mysteries games, that would be because he kept getting lawyers sicked on him from another company which is producing a mainstream game of a similar nature. He didn't want to make multiple incarnations, he was forced to. Given I heard he apparently had lawyers turn up at his door we're lucky he's still doing anything at all with the idea. That detail is actually quite scary in my opinion.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-07-19 23:35:58

True, it was actually incredibly sad given how close montizuma's return was to release. I'm really amazed at Tom's persistance, especially considdering it wasn't even his project to begin with, but one he took over from alchemy games.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-07-20 08:37:53

yes. its.

f.a.t.h.e.r

2009-07-20 19:58:11

Well I know if I had been working on a game and had been threatened by lawyers more than once I probably wouldn't dare keep trying.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-07-21 08:39:15

i agree with you.

f.a.t.h.e.r

2009-07-26 23:01:54

Yeah, when I hear my brother playing the newest games on the XBox I always think like, wow, they have awesome sounds and game play and stuff like that. Our games are like... Wlel. Something completely down in the water. You know, like the new games are will our games never be, or atleast not in the so near by future. Its sad, but wel. Hey, what can we do? I know that programming is hard, but, how many 500 1000 people are working on those games for the sighted people, and how many 10000 dollars or euros are they paying for all those copyright things, its just not payable for us one person companies.

What you're looking at is subhuman. It's not normal. Focus on yourself.

2009-07-26 23:44:10

I'm not sure that mainstream companies use 500 people even, but certainly they have access to a lot more people. They also do nothing else, so can devote more time, and because they work on a different development schedule they also have a wider breadth of experience.

They also have division of labour, meaning they can afford to hire people just for doing the analysis and design or the sounds.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-07-27 08:44:21

yes. its possible. its logic that audiogame productivity companies do not have 500 people, i thing the number of people is used hmmm, i dont know maibe max 10 or 20 maibe. only guesses.

f.a.t.h.e.r

2009-07-27 09:56:56

DRaconis is the biggest at I believe 12 people, but the rest are incredibly small, ---- Blind adrenaline literally just is! che martin, gma games comprises only David greenwood etc.

Even betwene audio game developers and similarly sized developers of independent graphical pc games though, there is stil a disparity, sinse there are lots of tools, utilities, programs or specifically created languages especially to be of help to small independent devs.

there are even game engines which allow the creation of completely new games by people with no programming skill whatsowever, simply because the engine has some amazingly complex and detailed in built game creation tools, and graphics, music and sounds can be modded, or indeed created directly with tools such as sprite editers to draw their own graphics from scratch.

This is why tools such as auydio game maker as it was planned to be, or tom's genesis 3D engine if it's ever finished would be fantastic for audio games, sinse they would allow some of the same short cuts which have been able to create huge amounts of independent graphical games, ----- some of which are, if not quite at the same level as games on the X box etc, are certainly up to the gameplay standards of the Snes/mega drive era, maybe even as far as the early playstation in some cases.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-07-27 10:57:23

yes. interesting question how are crating audiogames for example. javier mairena, or aminiel, from this forum?

f.a.t.h.e.r

2009-07-27 22:02:04

Hello,

Just because one dev is not great for answering questions though, don't start thinking all are.

With that you can make the ddifference between those who make games for fun because they like that, and those who just forget about it and/or want to make money with it.
I don't critic these last ones, that's just another thinking logic.

I personnally make small games for fun because programming is my hobby, and I think that listening to the players to see what they want is as important as doing what I personnally like. But commercials might not have enough time to make support or to watch how their production  are seen. Big error not to take time for it in my opinion, but  that's just my opinion.

yes. interesting question how are crating audiogames for example. javier mairena, or aminiel, from this forum?

Player sided answer :
about purchasing games, I'm not attached enough to some commercials (not hard gamer enough) to consider purchase them. If I like a lot one of them, or if it was done by a friend, and if it's not too expansive, yes, maybe, else forget it. There are sufficient gratis ones for a casual player like me.

Note that 3D action is not my favourite type of game. I prefer :
1 - idiot games like brickbreaker, pacman, tetris, space impact and other stupid arcade games that let you decompress for 10-15  minutes
2 - real-time or turn-based strategy
3 - RPG games

note / proof : my magic blocks and fast2type are in the first category, and connect4 in the second one.

Developper sided answer :
About free or not free games : I'm not a professionnal, I can't assure risks if the game don't work or crash by yours, tus I don't see why I should oblige people to pay for my games.
If I install paying system, it will be either only a symbolic  price (<=10$), or a plateform that would let you give what you want including nothing. The goal is anyway not to become rich.

If once I would be in a commercial society who whould pay me for programming audio games, my opinion would be of course very different. But at the moment, I'm only doing that for fun.

About programming alone : You are right, huge things are only possible with a team, but I think that it's difficult to make one, because we are not so many visually impaired but our tastes about gaming are as diversified as the sighted people.

There are 10 kinds of people : those who know binary, and those who don't.

2009-07-27 23:46:55

Personally I'm extremely skeptical about the whole game maker utility thing. Game makers failed in the mainstream community, and there we're talking about way more people than in our little community. Needless to say when Audio Game Maker was announced in 2006 many people were understandably leery of it. Granted there was still a great deal of excitement about it, but it was usually tinged with skepticism. Then that skepticism was seemingly proven all too well-founded once the program was released. Oh the potential was there, no denying that, but there were a lot of limitations and bugs that made any games created with it all but unplayable. And since the program was written by college students who only wanted the project off their backs, it's extremely unlikely that anyone's ever going to pick it back up and correct those bugs. I myself was extremely put off when, while attempting to create a game based on the Atari game Adventure, I discovered that items and weapons would continue to sound in their original location after being picked up by the player. Even more frustrating was the fact that every weapon had to have a certain amount of ammo, and even then sometimes it wouldn't work.

But wait, what's that? A transport! Saved am I! Hark, over here! Hey nonny non, please help!

2009-07-28 00:42:11

Well game makers that I saw in the mainstream were mostly just platform game editors, which let you design the levels and that was about the limit. It was mostly superficial and nothing more than a toy. Then again a game engine such as Quake worked well for the purpose you would think game makers would be aimed at, but required more effort and technical knowledge.

Regarding commercial audio games, I don't see anyone making any money from even the ones that are "commercial". I'm not sure why some developers are more outgoing than others, maybe it depends on what they expect from the experience and how extravert they are.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-07-28 05:16:19

Audio game maker, that incredibely big joke ?
I think that it is anyway not possible to have a generalized tool to create games from A to Z. Such a tool will always have too much limitations. Some simple concepts are too different from one game to another.
Nothing will never be good enough to replace the flexibility of a complete programming or scripting language.
Even in the mainstream, I never heard of a tool which was so powerful and widely used.

There are 10 kinds of people : those who know binary, and those who don't.

2009-07-28 09:16:15

I am not talking about game makers specifically as Bryan is right in that most end up being a joke.

there are however a host of tools, from scripting languages with in built commands, to free sets of libraries, to level editers which go far beyon the basic.

See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocks%27n%27Diamonds a freeware project which may be used to create any boulderdash style puzle game, but also can be expanded to create virtually any similar style of game, ----- including packman, or even Zelda.

Other short cuts are more minimal, being classes and defigned sets of language., I have for example seen sites which run 7 day game creation competitions, could you imagine creating an audio game in 7 days?

Obviously there is an advantage, sinse the basic techniques of writing graphics to the screen and defigning various factors for their interaction are more well known than the creation of audio games, and as Tom ward has frequently said on the audeasy list, basic stand alone components in the likes of microsoft direct X are probably not as well supported for the creation of audio games as they are for graphical ones.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-07-28 22:13:54

Actually some engines can be pretty flexible. Back when the mainstream version of Quake was new I recall there being a mod called Q Rally that changed it into a racing game, and one called Air Quake that made it into a flight simulator.

I also know that the Magic Carpet engine had been reused for the racing game Hi Octane, and I'm not sure if it also wasn't used in the original Dungeon Keeper.

You can do a heck of a lot with an engine. Trouble with game makers is they tend to be ridiculously dumbed down, to the point where they do indeed being little more than a level editor.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-07-29 00:20:55

that's very much the case seen with the above mentioned rocks -n- diamonds.

while undoubtedly the actual game making software won't let you do much, I have heard of people who start with things like that, or other of the more complex level editers kicking around, and move on from there to a prgramming language with shortcuts and libraries such as dark basic, and finally onto completely their own programming.

this is a wildly different matter though frm audio game devs who have to do everything from scratch, ---- often without even the basic tools in languages to help them.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-08-01 10:03:31

Hi guys,just out of quriosity,are there any blind devs?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
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2009-08-01 11:09:38

Depends what you mean by blind. I imagine most audio game devs have some level of visual impairment. If you want evidence of this, Josh de Lioncourt who runs Draconis also has a site for mac access news.

If you mean fully blind I can't obviously answer that, and if you mean directly present here I'll have to let anyone speak for themselves on that one.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-08-01 11:18:31

like cx2 said most of the ag devs are blind.
like thomas ward.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>