2019-07-12 17:53:59

Thank you for posting this, it is so needed, so glad it got focused on!

Every day is a good day!
When life gives you a lemon, make lemonade!
Opinions are like arseholes - everybody has one, and they all stink.

2019-07-12 19:00:20

This is very bad, I think. The problem also lies in the fact that the words and actions of several blind people can spoil the attitude of others towards everyone or most blind people.

2019-07-12 19:42:56

@45, that's just it, though, [ONE] five-star rating, not 5 or 10, or anything more than 1. There were a handful of folks who said they would give or did give them a five-star rating, so this offsets an accurate rating, it's now just in favor of the developers. Again, I understand the frustrations on both sides, not the negative rating. But we're arguing about ratings, and I've used the word rating way more than I meant to...
I think the issue is less about the rating and more about not giving the devs something more concrete, like bidirectional communication that actually builds a relationship between blind users and the development team. Why is the focus on this one stupid rating? The game hasn't tanked because of it, and the game itself is so early in its infancy that as more people are attracted to it, it will gain more (hopefully good) reviews. Again, this concept of battling it out on the ratings section on the app's entry on the app store is ineffective and childish (more to the negative reviewer).

What game will hadi.gsf want to play next?

2019-07-12 20:15:29

I have to go off topic for a second. Does this game allow you to battle other colonies?

Hopefully, we'll get a fully accessible open world game someday.

2019-07-12 22:04:04

@RTT
From any tab in the app store, go to the top and find the my account button, inside there will be purchases, which includes free apps.
In there, you should be able to tap an app and rate it or see your previous rating of it near the bottom of the page that comes up.

2019-07-12 22:21:05 (edited by CAE_Jones 2019-07-12 22:43:52)

I'll just leave this here:

The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics
The Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics says that you can have a particle spinning clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time – until you look at it, at which point it definitely becomes one or the other. The theory claims that observing reality fundamentally changes it.

The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics says that when you observe or interact with a problem in any way, you can be blamed for it. At the very least, you are to blame for not doing more. Even if you don’t make the problem worse, even if you make it slightly better, the ethical burden of the problem falls on you as soon as you observe it. In particular, if you interact with a problem and benefit from it, you are a complete monster. I don’t subscribe to this school of thought, but it seems pretty popular.

In 2010, New York randomly chose homeless applicants to participate in its Homebase program, and tracked those who were not allowed into the program as a control group. The program was helping as many people as it could, the only change was explicitly labeling a number of people it wasn’t helping as a “control group”. The response?

“They should immediately stop this experiment,” said the Manhattan borough president, Scott M. Stringer. “The city shouldn’t be making guinea pigs out of its most vulnerable.”

On March 11th, 2012, the vast majority of people did nothing to help homeless people. They were busy doing other things, many of them good and important things, but by and large not improving the well-being of homeless humans in any way. In particular, almost no one was doing anything for the homeless of Austin, Texas. BBH Labs was an exception – they outfitted 13 homeless volunteers with WiFi hotspots and asked them to offer WiFi to SXSW attendees in exchange for donations. In return, they would be paid $20 a day plus whatever attendees gave in donations. Each of these 13 volunteers chose this over all the other things they could have done that day, and benefited from it – not a vast improvement, but significantly more than the 0 improvement that they were getting from most people.

The response?

IT SOUNDS LIKE something out of a darkly satirical science-fiction dystopia. But it’s absolutely real — and a completely problematic treatment of a problem that otherwise probably wouldn’t be mentioned in any of the panels at South by Southwest Interactive.

There wouldn’t be any scathing editorials if BBH Labs had just chosen to do nothing – but they did something helpful-but-not-maximally-helpful, and thus are open to judgment.

There are times when it’s almost impossible to get a taxi – when there’s inclement weather, when a large event is getting out, or when it’s just a very busy day. Uber attempts to solve this problem by introducing surge pricing – charging more when demand outstrips supply. More money means more drivers willing to make the trip, means more rides available. Now instead of having no taxis at all, people can choose between an expensive taxi or no taxi at all – a marginal improvement. Needless to say, Uber has been repeatedly lambasted for doing something instead of leaving the even-worse status quo the way it was.

Gender inequality is a persistent, if hard to quantify, problem. Last year I blogged about how amoral agents could save money and drive the wage gap down to 0 by offering slightly less-sexist wages – while including some caveats about how it was probably unrealistic and we wouldn’t see anything like that in reality. So of course less than a week after I wrote that Evan Thornley says :

“There’s a great arbitrage there, we would give [women] more responsibility and a greater share of the rewards than they were likely to get anywhere else and that was still often relatively cheap to someone less good of a different gender.”

While Mr Thornley said he wasn’t advocating that the gender pay gap should be perpetuated, he said it provided “an opportunity for forward thinking people”.

A number of online commentators, as well as Australian start-up blogs, have since said Mr Thornley’s comments were sexist.

Mr. Thornley improved on the status quo – but in the process he interacted the problem and was thus caught up in it. This is a strategy which, if widely embraced, would practically eliminate many forms of wage discrimination overnight simply by harnessing something we have way too much of already: greed. So of course it was denounced.

Last year the city of Detroit began to crack down on unpaid water bills, and thousands of poor people suddenly faced the prospect of having their water shut off. The vast majority of people did nothing to help them whatsoever. PETA did offer conditional help: If a family went vegan for 30 days, PETA would pay off their water bill, and throw in a basket of vegan food to boot. This was strictly more helpful than what 99.99999% of humanity was doing for Detroit residents at the time, as it didn’t make anything worse and offered a trade for anyone who valued 30 days of not-being-vegan less than however much they owed on their water bill. For marginally improving he situation instead of ignoring it, they were denounced as “the worst”.

Peter Singer has a famous thought experiment about a child drowning in a pond. I’ll let Philosophy Bro explain:

Like, let’s say I’m on my way to a bitchin’ party and I’m looking fly as shit and I smell good because you already know, and I’ve got a 30-rack of Natty because I’ll be goddamned if I show up empty-handed to the house I’m about to burn down. Once I get over this bridge, and turn the corner I’ve arrived and so has the party. Except I hear a bunch of splashing and I look over the bridge into the river and – fuck me – there’s a kid flailing around and calling for help, like he’s drowning for some reason instead of handling his shit like an adult.

I should save his life, right?

Sometimes in philosophy we like to ask obvious questions and waggle our eyebrows suggestively, like maybe you don’t exist after all, hmm? but bro, this is not one of those times. I should obviously jump in and SAVE THIS FUCKING CHILD’S LIFE. So I ruin a Polo and I don’t smell good anymore and a couple of the beers explode because I dropped them. Who gives a shit, right? A child was going to die.

…[snip]…

What if I told you that for $5, you could buy a life-saving vaccine for a child? Sure, he’s far away, but we already agreed: who gives a shit, right? It’ll still save his life, and it only costs you not having a fifth drink at the bar on a Thursday. Remember that $300 bar receipt you posted with the caption “just another Thursday night wearing matching plaid with my bros, we’re special and impressive and are the ACTUAL six dudes with the biggest dicks, unlike all you OTHER overconfidences of bros who think that, well guess what, it’s us?” What you were really saying was “I routinely pass up the chance to save two dozen lives with science so that I can black out and pretend that I like myself for a night.” That’s fucked up, bro.

The difference is that the drowning child has been definitively noticed, and thus her moral weight bears down on us and we have to save her. But children thousands of miles away? Not noticed!

I think this might be where a lot of the discomfort with talking about things we can do to alleviate suffering comes from. If you implicitly believe in the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics, then to confront the scope of suffering in the world is to make it your fault, and then if you don’t throw everything you have at the problem you’re as “bad” as PETA or Mr. Thornley or Uber or BBH Labs.

But what if – what if noticing a problem didn’t make it any worse? What if we could act on a problem and not feel horrible for making it just a little better, even if it was an action that benefited ourselves as well? What if we said that in these instances, these groups weren’t evil – it’s okay to notice a problem and only make it a little bit better. If everyone did that, the world would be a vastly better place. If everyone “exploited” opportunities where they could benefit and alleviate people’s suffering at the same time, we’d all be better off.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2019-07-12 23:34:25

OK. Time for a little confession. I’m actually quite scared. I’m quite scared that this game will not be made accessible just because of what a few people have said. I know the impact that words can have on someone, but I really feel that it would be unfair for all of us to lose out on a phenomenal experience simply because they are demotivated by the opinions of 10 people. Why didn’t they come on this forum? Why didn’t they post anything here? Why just go to the App Store? I really would love to play this game. I quite like crafting kingdom, but it isn’t my cup of tea. Can anyone get into contact with the developer and ask them to post here? We need a status update.  Not necessarily on the progress of the accessibility, but rather on the progress of how things are going at the studio.

Hopefully, we'll get a fully accessible open world game someday.

2019-07-12 23:55:19 (edited by ianhamilton_ 2019-07-13 11:08:16)

@14 "The solution to the problem is for some devs to provide a sort of accessibility framework to be easier for devs to produce." Already exists. Made by the person who made the post.

@57 "I’m quite scared that this game will not be made accessible" You should be way more scared than that.

So to be absolutely clear here, this is not an issue about an individual game. Michelle, the developer who posted that blog post, is also responsible for the unity accessibility plugin. When she talks about the company being anti accessibility the implications go way way beyond a single game.

There was a tweet the other day about her being on an internal hackathon team buildijg a prototype of native in-engine Unity screenreader support. It is no exaggeration at all to say that things are at a turning point at the moment and I'd you lose Michelle then the blind accessibility effort will be set back by years.

It's precisely this kind of "fuck developers" attitude that made me stop sending developers to this forum.

To be blunt accessibility is not going to happen by itself. Outside of CVAA it's still a very tough sell, it's not like other industries where there is a legal imperative so you're reliant entirely on goodwill and winning hearts and minds. If you want it to happen you need to make it happen, and making it happen means encouraging success, not hating on your biggest allies for them not quite managing to drive change at the speed that you like.

Standing by is not an option, if you want mainstream accessibility to become a reality you need to stop the people in the community who are sabotaging it, and throw every ounce of support behind your allies who are fighting to change things for the better. Like Michelle.

2019-07-12 23:56:05 (edited by defender 2019-07-13 01:15:48)

Yeah it was partially their fault that people got upset in the first place if they never told anyone it was going to be made accessible, but like others have said, they should have just asked if they weren't sure.  Hell Trees Brothers (makers of Star Traders) did the same thing and people were disappointed but pretty understanding.  I would literally only give 1 star if the game was actively terrible in every way and I paid money for a ly.
I see Key7zum defending the practice of giving 1 star to get a dev's attention on the applevis thread and it makes me mad that she doesn't seem to understand the gravity of (over all rating) in Apple's ranking system when a game has so few ratings yet that the impact of one review is totally outsized compared to what it should be.
Frankly I see her getting ripped to shreds for it and I can't say I'm sorry either.

2019-07-13 00:02:43

Screw this, I’m not just sitting back and watching things go badly. Somebody ask Michelle to come to this forum. She needs to see what everyone is saying.

Hopefully, we'll get a fully accessible open world game someday.

2019-07-13 00:24:58

@59, practically every rating system works like Apples does -- even Amazons one works liek that. If a book has only one review and its a bad one, there's a pretty high chance it won't appear in any of the top lists, or in any major list, and so there is a pretty high chance that it won't get popular.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2019-07-13 01:16:48

true, I didn't mean it like it was exclusive to them, but I understand how it would sound like that how I said it.

2019-07-13 02:08:10 (edited by mikrima 2019-07-13 02:11:53)

Hi everyone, I'm Michelle, the author of the blog post.
I wanted to post here to throw in my two cents. Ian Hamilton just linked me the AppleVis thread as well, so I'll be posting this over there, too.
Because my post felt kind of negative, I didn't post it on Twitter or draw attention to it. It was a personal vent - I didn't think many people would care for it.

There's no need to give the game a 5 star rating to counter the 1 star ones. The thought is much much appreciated, and thank you for that - but I'd feel much better if people just reviewed the game after they played it (once everyone can play it). Someone said it pretty perfectly further up in this threat. Manipulating ratings to counter manipulated ratings is not the solution.

Also, I'm a little overwhelmed at the moment by the sheer amount of comments, emails and Twitter messages I have received. All of them positive, some offering insights or just trying to see things from all sides and so on. It's pretty awesome, and I made a point of showing around the 20+ positive comments on my blog post today. That definitely changed things, I can tell you that much.

Regardless, even if not a single person had read my post - it wasn't my intention to make anyone worry that I'd be stopping my work on the game's accessibility. If there's any doubt in that regard, allow me to spell it out:
This game will become accessible!
I just don't know when.

Aside from the big core gameplay mechanics, I'm fighting a million little things. Here is just one example: The text in some labels has words highlighted in a different color. The screen reader reads the color information out aloud, so currently you're hearing "Great job recruit, now hop onto your left bracket color equals hashtag f f c c 4 5 right bracket colony ship left bracket dash right bracket and fly to the next planet".
Not terribly difficult to fix, but I have a hundred of little things like that to iron out.
I'll get through it all, in time.

Last time, with Crafting Kingdom, it was the feedback of dozens of beta testers from this forum and others that made all the difference. The first version of the game was accessible, yes, but far from great. I'm really hoping one something similar again with this game, once I got things far enough to throw it into an accessibility mode beta test. I had always planned to come here and start a thread looking for beta testers once I'm in that stage.

2019-07-13 02:08:37

This is a lesson for all of us. It's ironic how we will all slam each other quickly and yet when a topic like this comes up, everyone's the good guy now. As I scanned this topic I immediately picked out four names that were relentless when I was actively developing TDV. I'm glad a sighted mainstream dev has finally got your attention. Maybe it'll make you think next time before you go after a dev.

Also, the game isn't doing poorly in terms of ratings--it was at a 4.8 when I checked.

2019-07-13 07:00:45 (edited by RTT entertainment 2019-07-13 07:10:28)

Hi. It is so great to hear that everything is okay. I just wanted to ask, did my review even get published? I can’t seem to find it. My nickname on the App Store is the Tetris monster.

Hopefully, we'll get a fully accessible open world game someday.

2019-07-13 09:06:47

Hi. Do you think we could please have some sort of an audio recording to be able to get an understanding of the game? I’m not necessarily asking to hear the accessibility, just to hear someone walking through some of the game and explaining it. While the App Store description is good, it would be nice to know a bit more about the games mechanics. Can we battle other colonies? Do  other colonies even exist?  How exactly does the colony ship work? Also, if you didn’t read my review, I think it wasn’t even published, do you think you could please add a save data management system if there is not already implemented? I love having the ability to manage my save and it would be nice to be able to delete a save if you don’t want it anymore. It can get quite bothersome uninstalling the app. I know it sounds pointless, but it’s another suggestion.

Hopefully, we'll get a fully accessible open world game someday.

2019-07-13 10:58:34

@Michelle sorry, I should have talked to you first before posting it here. I felt it was critically important that the blind community see the psychological impact of the different actions they take in relation to accessibility on non blind development teams. I think this thread has taught many people that the proper way to get accessibility is to privately contact developers first, rather than give them negative reviews on the app store.
I hope that when the accessibility mode is ready, all the interest in this topic will translate into interest in the app.
(I would be interested to know what percentage of an Indy game's sales and downloads are from blind players)
The hope is that future games won't have negative reviews like this for accessibility.
I also hope your development lead knows you have a ton of hard-core fans in the VI community!

2019-07-13 11:14:13

Hi. I just have to ask, is this game open ended or mission based? My friend who is visually impaired was playing with me and showing me the game. I don’t have any problem with this game being mission based, it just seems like a strange direction for a game like this to take.

Hopefully, we'll get a fully accessible open world game someday.

2019-07-13 14:42:55

Just for those interested, the tutorial person is a bit of a sassy one.

Hopefully, we'll get a fully accessible open world game someday.

2019-07-13 14:46:14

There are going to be those who do things like this because that's just how they are. But there are so much more of us who do appreciate the work people are putting into accessibility than hateful, entitled trolls. Also, I'm betting not everyone would have realized the effect this would have, now hopefully they do.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2019-07-13 15:27:59

Good point iron Cross.

Hopefully, we'll get a fully accessible open world game someday.

2019-07-14 15:17:42

I'm sorry, while sighted people do do this, it is so clear to me that blind people have one of the worst entitlement problems i've ever seen.  I my self saw it with Madden developement,  over the years, and people just grilling EA because Madden Menus were not accessible right then and there. I want games to be accessible too, but acting like I have some  sort of God-Given right to force a developer to make there games accessible especially if they are a small company isn't going to change a thing. I'd rather wait and see what happens.

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2019-07-14 17:36:43

I'm glad to hear that all the negativity hasn't put you off of making this game accessible, I'm looking forward to trying it once it's ready. I would say something to these self entitled blindies out there, but it's just not worth our time, they have sad little lives and nothing better to do then act like complete idiots, and I'm very happy to hear that you weren't put off by them Michelle, there are a lot of us that look forward to sighted games having accessibility added to them.

2019-07-15 08:30:21

@Michelle,  really glad to hear that the access mode is happening, as I said, I've been wanting a space colonization management game for a considerable time now and will very much look forward to  this when the niggling accessibility problems are ironed out.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-07-15 18:39:54

I'm looking forward to it too honestly!

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