2019-07-06 18:00:21 (edited by UltraLeetJ 2019-07-06 18:14:09)

a few clarifications:
admission of piracy or however I was phrasing it, is not equal to subverting rules. That is never what I had meant. Its just that when you read these in their entire context something is fishy in terms of how audio description content could have been obtained... if we bring the piracy issue up for alternative hosts or for discussing something, then there's got to be something wrong with the current content that is out there.
For one, I am not living in the U.s., I stopped doing so at least 8 years ago, and its pretty clear in the info that precedes every post I make.

Second, its correct that you do need different ways to access things that other people can do very easily, such as checking books out of libraries at no cost, which can cost though you don't really really really need that pearl camera, a regular scanner would be fine, too. However, being blind also offsets some other things. You could argue that there is no need for a light-bulb to stay on when you live all by yourself and so on and that conserves some bill costs. Also, on the other side of the world such as where I live, you do have other kinds of propaganda which isn't helping either . Again, the comments towards that side of the perspective were in regards to the context of all of the posts on this topic alone, maybe on other forums its just different, but here it really shows with all of the dramas that actually have been starting since last year.
@70: valid points but not very strong:
Of course I would not agree much on what copyright does for the artists, and worse for big corporations, but take the cloned games drama. There needs to be a line drawn somewhere and you would understand this fully only when you are living  independently and get paid for your creative output whether as an emerging  developer or as an artist, and so on. Piracy is making this harder each time and people are actually retiring or selling things at other places or finding other jobs, yet some kids  also don't get it. Those are also objective facts.

as far as Scribd's or Libgen's, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. So one of those platforms could or would be used. Though wikipedia again, is an open collaborative platform where anyone can post and edit. You would not see those mirrors on something more serious for university and true research like this or this

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2019-07-06 18:06:39 (edited by defender 2019-07-06 20:50:38)

I think both sides of the argument have some marrot.
1. Most TV and movies are meant to entertain rather than educate, and entertainment is not a right while education is, even though entertainment can help you grow artistically and education can be entertaining, so the lines do get blurry.
2. Many first world countries have pushed for as many books as possible to be available to everyone, but in this case people with print disabilities, including purely entertainment books, but almost all of them still started with educational material as the main focus.  Some also now include documentaries, music, and short films along with the books.  So in a way, movies and tv shows aren't a huge leap, and it's clear that via libraries, society has decided that entertainment should be free for the most part as well, just with some restrictions on how many copies are sacrificed for the greater good.
3. As far as I know, There is no law giving immunity to sites like this just because they are helping disabled people, though if the servers are in a country with loose or no copyright protections, then they would be effectively immune for other reasons.  Therefore, these sites are illegal and considered wrong by government, media corporations, and parts of society.
4. Certain countries that have the resources to do so, have not made described video available to enough people do to shortcomings in the system.  For instance the UK compared to the US. 
So, one asks ones self if it is truly wrong to attempt to remedy this failure, and further spread this media to those in countries who do not have the money or inclination to do so, for the betterment of our fellow disabled community members.
Those are the arguments, with most of the moral BS and sidelining taken out, as I see them at least.


@UltraLeetJ
The files are almost invariably description tracks ripped from dvd's and bluerays, which would be illegal yes, at least in countries that give a crap, which would be nearly all of the countries that these descriptions were produced and soled in.


@Jace
The huge majority of torrents accessible to the public contain pirated material, so lets not split hairs and be willfully dishonest to push an agenda here.
That said, to say the entire torrent protocol is meant for illegal distribution is also wrong, yet I don't think anyone has claimed that here either.
It's hard to even blame ISP's for blocking torrents (they wouldn't bother if they hadn't been sued before) when basically everything legit you can get on a torrent, you can get by other means without allot of speed decrease.  There are many more important things I could blame ISP's for though...
It's hard to take an argument seriously when it relies on selective honesty and willful ignorance of certain inconveniences.

Buy the worlds greatest machine gun. It's about 50 inches in length, It's huge! & it can shoot really far, &, it's cheap!
Lets demonstrate this: stand still Thom...
Okay ma.aaa!
Oh! crap!

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2019-07-06 19:07:49

Okay, I've been away for five days and now this happens. So, again, moderators, please read:

NO. ONE. CARES. ABOUT. AUDIO. DESCRIPTION. NO. ONE.

Now, you closed that topic because we're getting stuff for free. I'm not getting anything for free, I'm donating.

But could you please tell me of a way to get EVERYTHING on the vault legally? Name me one place where I can legally download everything they have. One. And I'll gladly sign up.

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2019-07-06 19:20:12

Enquiring minds would like to know if you can find direct links to legitimate parts of the Torrent site... so it can be proven once and for all that it is not solely for pirating purposes.

Ulysses
Ham radio call sign: KJ7ERC
AKA TheForeverFlyer and HeavenlyHarmony
My new, self-hosted version of WordPress!

2019-07-06 19:35:13

Cant' get you that, 79, but I can definitively prove to you that Torrents are not just used for illegal material and piracy; Linux disributions (Ubuntu and others) use them as alternative download methods.
@78, I would like you to prove your claim, would you? Evidence, please? Evidence that absolutely* no one* cares if you pirate and steel audio described content? Please go around and ask all 7 billion plus people on this earth if they care, OK?

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-07-06 20:52:20

Yep and also the Sonniss GDC libraries.

Buy the worlds greatest machine gun. It's about 50 inches in length, It's huge! & it can shoot really far, &, it's cheap!
Lets demonstrate this: stand still Thom...
Okay ma.aaa!
Oh! crap!

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2019-07-07 07:12:16

well. I'll still help the audio vault where I can. it is thanks to sights like BMM and the audio vault that I found out about descriptive content in the first place. besides, that makes a question pop up in my mind. if we're using this to get movies, or share content with people who might not have the cash, to say, pay for Amazon Prime, or netflix, is this still illegal if we're doing this with no expected profit in mind, save for the joy of helping others?

Blindness isn't a disability, but a diffrent way of seeing things

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2019-07-07 07:32:47

@82, I know that everyone has different opinions but I must say that this is not illegal. It's not like everyone can go to amazon prime or netflicks and buy those videos. I know that some would think of it as pyracy or something, but according to me, there are some ocasions when we must break the rules.
It's not like noone wants to give those devs the appriciation they truely deserve by buying the softwares, movies, etc. but suppose if they can't aford it, then how can you say that it's wrong. It's not like people like doing these things.

Winter is coming!

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2019-07-07 09:07:46

@83, it may not seem wrong, but its wrong. If you were selling things at a store and I didn't have money to afford your items, is it OK for me to just walk in, take whatever I want and leave? No, its not, and you'd appropriately be outraged. It may not seem illegal to you but it is.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-07-07 09:07:48

That probably won't hold up in a court of law though. Lol.

An interesting quote from The Section 31 Files audio Drama comes to mind.

"We don't break the laws because we can; we break the laws because we must."

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2019-07-07 09:27:05

@84, Woops, sorry. Forgot about that.
@85, I totaly agree with you. And as someone previously said, there aren't audio described movies and tv shows available. Take for example, me. I live in India. Now I've heard that in some countries there are some services by which if a blind person goes to watch a movie, their are some services available I think narration. Buy here, there isn't a friggin single one.
We can't even understand or sometimes need to take help of some sighted people to understand. If we would even try to buy them, it would be too costly due to the change in currrency.
So I think that sites like audiovault.et are very helpful here.
Like I said before, it's not like we don't want to donate or pay, but man...
Anyways, I really appriciate such sites over here. So Thumbs up! smile

Winter is coming!

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2019-07-07 10:12:35

ok why did this topic turn into a legal debate? lol. i thought we were discussing alternative methods on discussing about the vault.

“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
― George Washington
if you found my post helpful, informative or funny please hit that thumbs up button.
want to get in touch? use the email link at the bottom of this post.

2019-07-07 14:00:51

I must say, it's definitely very much illegal to upload and download copyrighted works without paying for them; not immoral though if the copyright holders refuse to make things available.

As for where to discuss it, I've done some thinking and I've come around to the idea of a purpose-built forum.

1. A purpose-built forum has no external terms of service we must agree to, and no external moderation.
2. It can be made as accessible as possible.
3. It can be linked directly with the audiovault.
4. It is available on both desktop and mobile platforms.
5. It is very cheap, free if linked directly with the audiovault.
6. I have experience in administering them, and I'm sure some others on this group may.

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2019-07-07 17:37:33

I'm sorry. it wasn't my intention to cause any drama. I was just happy to help where i could.

Blindness isn't a disability, but a diffrent way of seeing things

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2019-07-08 05:23:15

Legally, The difference between the audiovault and organisations like bookshare, the NLS/CNIB/RNIB is that in the official organisation's cases, the main reason copyright holders let them distribute material is because they check that their users are actually disabled.
From a moral standpoint, TV and movies are a huge part of culture. Blind people are already left out of so much, suggesting that they be left out of popular media as well is insane to me. As someone who has subscriptions to 95 percent of the services that the Audiovault gets it's stuff from, I don't feel that I'm stealing in the slightest when I use it. But, for example, Take game of thrones. It's a show we can all agree would be very difficult to watch without AD. and yet, unless you live in the UK, there is no AD to be had. The day you show me a legal way to acquire AD for something like GOT is the day I stop thinking the vault is necessary.
It's also really funny that people are being told to use VPN's. that's still illegal.

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2019-07-08 06:10:45 (edited by Ethin 2019-07-08 06:12:54)

@90, in pretty much every country bar a few the usage of VPNs is not illegal. In some, aka China, it is, but most of the time its not.
If I use a VPN to access AD in the UK, and I purchase it, that's not illegal, either; I am still paying for them and accessing them in a legal manner, just in an unorthodox way. The same argument applies to Tor; ther are very few countries that outright ban Tor. The only one that comes to mind is China because it prevents them from monitoring their citizens in their... ah... unique way. (That's putting it politely.) But in the US at least, using tor is perfectly legal, even if the NSA would like you to think otherwise (the NSA created Tor, you know). I think the usage of VPNs or Tor is legal in the UK; I'd be incredibly surprised if it was illegal.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-07-08 06:42:01 (edited by grryfindore 2019-07-08 06:45:17)

Hi,
Thank you everybody, for your ongoing ideas suggestions and the support.
This post is basicly to say that I haven't disappeared, and that I am keeping an eye on this topic and the other one to see what people prefer, just giving it a few more days before we come to a final decision. I am also looking into a sepret forum, and whether or not it'd be too much hassel to deal with.
As regards the legality of the vault and discussions about it, I think all that can be said has been said, the people who get it have, and the ones that refuse to budge no matter what else is said would very likely be the same.
All that I have to say on this is, there' are legalitys and then there is doing what's right.

post 69, 70, and 90 thumbs up, pretty much why I started with the vault, and really if the admins/ moderators had asked me to remove the direct links from the bmmv topic, and just keep the link to the homepage there, I would have been very happy to comply.

G97, I will get in touch with you to talk about it further soon.
hadi, that isn't a forum I haven't come across, but will do a search and see what I come up with.

84, not the same at all, not by far. Like I and others have said if you care to read, go outside the UK or the US and you'd have a better perspective of what kind of audio describe content is available, and how many people have access to it,and I don't just mean for free. There are many countries where audio described content isn't available at all, and if you look on this page of the forum's room, you will see that many are not even aware that there is such a thing as audio described movies and tv shows, that they can access shows or movies with as much detail as their sighted peers and not be left wondering what the hell their friends are talking about when they talk about a particular movie or a show as there are details a blind person is very likely to miss when watched with no access to Audio description. perfect example Game of thrones season 8, episode 3.
Enough said
Cheers all,
Grryf

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
Follow me on twitter

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2019-07-08 07:09:04 (edited by Ethin 2019-07-08 07:10:22)

@92, for your information, I know how to read, thank you very much. So your viewpoint is then that:
1) If your in the US or UK, you can pay for AD.
2) If your not in the US or UK, you should be allowed to do whatever you please with the AD, even if it results in lost revenue?
If that's your viewpoint, that's your viewpoint. But as I said... use a damn VPN if you want to access content you normally can't access, VPNs aren't that hard to use. Its an unnecessary complication, but sometimes you gotta do unnecessary complications to get what you want. Theft and piracy are not always he answer as you seem to believe. And post 84 was exactly the same as what your saying. Thee is no difference in you physical steeling or digital steeling; its still steeling.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-07-08 09:40:47 (edited by st.mc 2019-07-08 09:46:29)

I can understand what post 92 is talking about, it's really strange to me that people think that a VPN can solve all the problems in the world. Well, It just doesn't! there's the problem of transferring money in some countries, in some others having enough money is a huge problem itself! hell! some people don't even have enough of it to buy a VPN that could bypass netflix restrictions, let alone subscribing to it! honestly, what would you do if all your income for a month was nothing more than $24? after reading post84, I think of it as a situation where someone goes in that store, buys what everyone needs and shares it with others. Although, it may sound  strange when you think of it this way, this is the closest thing to a store that I could come up.  I think post84 is a poor comparison after all

:)

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2019-07-08 10:20:36

@94, your right, I didn't take that into account. I apologize.
If your low on income, you could ask someone who does have the money to set a VPN up for you. I'd be happy to do it. Netflicks isn't overly expensive in USD, though I don't know what it amounts to in other countries.
The difference between my analogy in 84 and yours in 94 is that the store I was comparing this too didn't give out "batches" or multiple items at once. If you, say, bought 4-5 copies of the same movie, its understandable then to lone it, or purchase them as gifts to others. (Why haven't we already done that?) Seriously... why did no one ever think of asking someone to get the movies as gifts? I think netflicks allows you to do that. I know Amazon does.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-07-08 10:41:16

@griff
If you'd like, i can invite you to our private formula 1 team forum and you can see the level of accessibility that it has.
contact me on skype, or  PM on here if you'd like.
If you'd like to get a forum going, i see your options as:
PunBB, outdated but  probably preferred by screen reader users because it is simple, fast and each post has its own heading.
SMF, secure and updated, fully featured, each forum section can be divided by headings, each post can be accessed by headings,  but as far as i know, topics are in a table and you can easily go through them by table navigation.
IPB, Invision Power Board, payed, but heading navigation for topics and posts.

John Petrucci Fan all the time.
twitter: @hadirezae3
skype ID: hadi.gsf7

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2019-07-08 16:41:52

It is illegal to use a VPN to bypass location restrictions. That is all.

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2019-07-08 18:14:19

A forum would be good, because then it could cover more than just the audio described stuff. I don't really know anything about the emulation things, and I haven't actually ever played crazy party, but I'm sure the people who do would also want an alternative. So it would be better to have one place that we can move everything to that they are cracking down on. The only thing is you would need some way of preventing the forum from being taken over by spambots, otherwise it won't survive. Not sure if it would be more effort than it's worth.

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2019-07-08 21:16:37 (edited by defender 2019-07-08 21:17:21)

@97
Exactly what I was going to say.  While using a VPN is not illegal, bypassing region locking is.
Of course this also assumes you give a fuck, which I do not.

Buy the worlds greatest machine gun. It's about 50 inches in length, It's huge! & it can shoot really far, &, it's cheap!
Lets demonstrate this: stand still Thom...
Okay ma.aaa!
Oh! crap!

Thumbs up

2019-07-09 00:09:21

That's why I sugested using a VPN. At least your obtaining the movies legally; the only illegal thing your then doing is bypassing region locking, which really shouldn't exist anyway.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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