2019-07-05 08:17:31

Skype 8 is the Electron version. Electron is basically a web app running in a Chrome browser.

Skype for Windows 10 is the UWP (Universal Windows Platform) version that isn't as accessible as Skype 8. You can go into background app settings and turn that one off.

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2019-07-05 08:26:16 (edited by grryfindore 2019-07-05 08:30:14)

First of all at flackers, since the bmmv topic is closed (good timing jade btw),
loved this post

There have been many topics discussing this exact thing, and the majority of users disagreed / wanted alternatives, but of course, we all must bow down to Jade and co.
My thoughts on this are right here Also, zack93 the post after mine makes some very good points, And I won't be posting on there any more, I am done.
  Why thank you, sir Jade, I am simply brimming with gratitude for your forbairance and generocity in allowing us poor thieves and beggers/ steelers, criminals (am I missing something?) to carry on discussing alternative communication methods. bah

  We will probably be creating a google group/ mailing list for discussions, a forum would be better, I agree, but I do not have time to create and manage one, unless of course someone sensable steps up. and I am also keeping an eye on this topic as well as the other one with the pole on it, to see what our users want, but some aren't really feezable.
And anything that's decided upon will be posted on the audiovault website as well as on here, that is if our overlords (the generous and kind ones) haven't changed their minds by then.
Also, feel free to pm me with requests for ADV and I will upload it if we have it. or note it down for the future.
Good day all,

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
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2019-07-05 10:59:09 (edited by hadi.gsf 2019-07-05 11:03:29)

Where ever it is, this should be left to griff to sort out. the recent action done by mods directly effect him because of the donations.
So if griff can't use this forum as a platform for his work then we should help him to find an alternative and help him to spread the word.
I also vote discord by the way.
edit: i am changing my vote from discord to a forum or a mailinglist, because simply that would be easyer for everyone, and i mean everyone. I can work with discord easily but i am a gamer and i've been gaming for over 10 years, i was forced to work with it when it was completely inaccessible  because of flight sim and formula 1 communities. Discord works, but something that  literally everyone could  get setup easier is a better option

John Petrucci Fan all the time.
twitter: @hadirezae3
skype ID: hadi.gsf7

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2019-07-05 11:19:27

Forum under construction for all things accessible related.
Hopefully will be ready by the end of the month.

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2019-07-05 13:43:19

I definitely vote forum.
Speaking of which, and I think this is a question worth asking:
While I'm an admin of the audiogames forum, will I still be allowed to join your new forum as a member, to check on things, not to rat anyone out but to genuinely discuss things with you all in an alternate place, while at the same time still doing stuff on agnet?

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2019-07-05 15:44:59 (edited by defender 2019-07-05 18:48:05)

Is discord really that accessible though?  Last time I checked you could get randomly launched up to the top again if you scrolled toof ar, their were billions of unlabeled clickables that probably do useful stuff, and at least for me, on desktop I couldn't properly switch from section to section in settings but could on the web.
It's not unusable but less skilled computer users would probably just give up.
Also Aaron, why would you even need to tell them who you are, just create a different username LOL.

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2019-07-05 16:05:23

Yeah, I am leaning more and more towards a googlegroup that works more or less like a mailinglist or a forum if you wanted it to.
  Discord is good, but it has accessibility issues when it comes to managing, such as promoting demoting members.
People have been after a subreddit or least that is what the votes say, but I am not familiar enough with it, and its a bit too public. Its not that I want to hide the vault so deep down under the water that its never found, but on the same hand, I don't want to get on the top of the towers and put up a banner or 2. Not for now, anyway, But who knows about the future.
Whatsapp would be a huge no no, not just because it has the possibility of turning into a huge flud, but it would require people give their phone numbers away, which most users won't be comfortable with.
May very likely end up setting up a few channels instead of just one, but that would mean that much more work for me where I am not working on getting new content or organizing what we have.

Thanks at everybody for speaking up and supporting the vault,  I was gonna say it earlier, but was too upset to put up 2 words together. smile
This forum has been the only place I have frequented ever sinse I started using a computer, and it was the most comfortable place to be in, Where you could speak up without being hounded, fare was fare and right was right, and not just in the legal sense.
We all know the people we have to thank for messing all that up.
@aaron, welcome any time, same name or no smile

Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, ‘It might have been.
Follow me on twitter

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2019-07-05 16:07:36


What about a forum? You could install an accessible client (like phpbb) on a subdomaine of the audiovault one.

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2019-07-05 17:09:51

I'd personally recommend punBB, it's insanely easy to setup and it's what this forum uses or at least sort of uses, so it'd be a fermiluar interface to the rest of us as well.

2019-07-05 17:38:18 (edited by Green Gables Fan 2019-07-05 17:39:41)

What about using groups.io? I am on several lists on there already.
@59 what do you mean it sort of uses? I upgraded from PunBB to PanBB, but this forum still says PunBB below that, and some of the extensions, like User Karma, still work even though someone said it won't work on newer versions.

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2019-07-05 18:20:42

PunBB is also horribly out of date. Groups.IO would be nice, though I probably won't cast a vote.
As a forum alternative, what do you guys think of Discourse?

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-07-05 19:52:56

Groups.io would be a very bad idea. They have a harsh stance against piracy and copyright infringement in general, so if someone unscrupulous did rat you guys out, your mailing list would be closed, no questions asked. I have seen this happen. You might be able to avoid that by making the group private, but I'd be wary. Otherwise, though, it's an extremely accessible platform, especially to administrate, much better than others I've had experience with.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2019-07-05 20:17:07

@62, true that. I especially like how you can use git hub with it.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-07-06 05:30:38

so posts62 and 63 are openly admitting piracy? or is there really anything I am missing?
From where were these audio descriptions and such obtained in the first place, though, no one answered and probably no one will care. I personally find audio described things boring, I normally go to cinema with friends or use totally free, legal apps that are specifically done for this purpose like audio desc or audesc mobile from Spain's once organization. They contain descriptions only that sync to the movie you are watching. Has anyone tried at least giving some thought to those ideas?
has anyone actually advocated for cinemas to get audio described stuff? I know that here, for example, we can go to two different places to watch audio described movies every other week. True, its inconvenient because its just two schedules, a set movie and a set day and so on, but its way better than nothing.

Regarding scribb and so on, its plagued with illegal stuff and yet it has not been shut down, probably because the site does not care and people do not care to report it, either but that does not just make it totally immune for that not to happen, it could just disappear overnight just as what happened to sites like what dot cd, or demonoid. And no one was as ridiculously histerical as those kids posting in here were. I believe that post such as those make the forum look even worse than just copyright issues alone, which is really depressing. You might wish to look for more popular sites such as scribb, or blind help or whatever that are in same ground and upload the audio described things there too, maybe there nothing will happen to them.
The fact that some people donated to this speaks loud and clear about other issues that are way outside the scope of this post but are global issues that non blind, also known as, sighted people have and there is plenty to read about this online, yet they also get their freebies taken away, because of the same problem, copyright and the right to compensation for one's work. I never ever will understand how or even why this idea of you having a disability automatically grants you some weird rights , I bet sighted people do have their big economical struggles too, I personally know some friends that do not have jobs for a long time now, so its not just you who is in terribly critical crisis times, yet they somehow find the time to do silly stuff like smoking a pack almost daily, so its a matter of how you set your priorities and what you decide to do with your life.. but I guess the average age of this place is at an almighty low.

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2019-07-06 07:27:18

i vote discord all though it is not the most accessible app out there it is usable.

“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
― George Washington
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2019-07-06 07:54:27

@64, nope, not at all. I was just commenting on how groups.io lets you integrate git hub -- I used that a few months back.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-07-06 08:20:21

I have seen groups which were created with the express purpose of file sharing be shut down, yes. However, I should clarify that Groups.io was not the only platform this happened on, just that the admins of said platform have taken an aggressive stance against piracy. I'm not offering an opinion about this one way or the other, since such talk is unwelcome here, I just thought I would impart my knowledge of it and how it works since it was brought up.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2019-07-06 08:33:23

I see nothing in posts 62 or 63 to suggest any sort of attempt to subvert the rules.
Saying you've heard of something happening doesn't mean you are condoning it's use.

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my space bar. Prepare to die!


2019-07-06 10:55:00 (edited by flackers 2019-07-06 11:25:48)

As regards weird rights for disabled people. The RNIB's talking book service came into being because of the way the sighted could access books for free yet blind people couldn't. Any sighted person could go to a public library and take out any book for free. Books are where we store our knowledge, and so society thought it was a good idea if everyone had access to that resource, not just those who could afford it. But blind people couldn't access it not because of income, but because they couldn't read print books. So the RNIB, and organisations like it decided to embark on the impossible task of making every book available for free in audio format so the blind could access human knowledge just like the sighted. They believe blind people were entitled to access this resource. It's funded by organisations large and small who agree with this concept. There's an old saying that goes: judge a civilisation on how it cares for the vulnerable. Primitive societies who can't afford to care for the elderly and such just leave them out to die. They just don't have the resources to carry anyone. But first world countries do. Being disabled and wanting to live as full a life as an abled bodied person gets expensive. Books for example: I read a lot and occasionally I have to scan a paperback because that's the only way that book is available. I do it with a pearl camera and OpenBook, which together cost well over a thousand pounds. I need a PC to do it, and Jaws cost over a thousand pounds, and this scenario predates NVDA. Used paperbacks have been available online for the past 20 years for under 3 pounds including delivery. That's how much it costs a sighted person to access that info. It cost me 2 and a half grand. These are the kinds of things blind people have faced in order to just have the same quality of life as the sighted. True, all you need to survive is bread and water and a concrete cell to protect you from exposure, but this is the first world and we don't even treat the worst kinds of criminals like that anymore. So I don't believe that any disabled person who wants to be on as even a footing as possible with the able-bodied is some kind of privileged whinger. There are certain tabloid papers in the UK that are spreading this kind of resentment towards the disabled. Presenting the idea they're living lives of luxury. The RNIB itself published a study that showed actual physical attacks on the disabled had increased since these kinds of stories started appearing in the news. These news reports are most likely acting as political propaganda during a time of financial austerity. It's disturbing  to see this kind of thinking coming from the disabled community itself.

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2019-07-06 13:33:17

@64 and others. No, no, no. You don't see the point. The problem with audio description, usually, is not that blind people are greedy jerks who don't want to pay. They actually do, well, most of the time. The problem is that they literally can't. When you live in the UK/US, especially US, you don't even see most of the problem, as you can legally watch any movie you want, just like a sighted person, as audio description is often provided. In other countries though, audio description is either completely nonexistent or barely there. This is the case with my country. I know of literally two movies and one TV show that I wanted to watch that had polish audio description, and I watch a lot. Only one of those movies was off Netflix, and it was a local bestseller. If a blind pole wants to watch Game of Thrones, Starwars, the Harry Potter movies, Hunger Games, the Matrix or countless other things, well, they're out of luck. They're not here with AD. They never were. I would happily buy them from the US/UK if I could, but, well, I can't. I'd need to get DVDS and pay like 5x what sighted people pay, which would still be illegal, as most DVDS are region locked, or get a VPN and circumvent geoblockades, also in a gray area. When it comes to audio vault, it's exactly the same. Is it legal? Hell no, it isn't. Is linking to it's home page, not specific files, legal? Of course it is. If it wasn't, linking to Scribd's or Libgen's homepage would also be illegal, and, if you bring up Ligben's Wikipedia article, you will see not one link, but four, leading to different mirrors. You won't see links to specific things you can find on that website, but you will see a link to the homepage, and even an IP address for those who live in countries that meddle with their DNS requests. That's Wikipedia! Blocking links to specific things or even request threads  is understandable. Blocking them after receiving DMCA complaints is necessary. Blocking links to homepages or groups, though, that's not copyright, that's censorship, though it's usually one and the same (more on that later). I could bring up countless examples of big websites that don't do this and get away with it. Wikipedia is one example, Lifehacker, with articles like "most evil subreddits you can find" is another. Be aware that  Lifehacker belongs to a pretty big family of companies and big news websites. If someone knows what they're doing, it's probably them. Still, they're doing it. There are no direct links to infringing content, as the legality of that is discussable, but there are general pointers. Hell, there are even websites *dedicated* to discussing piracy, like Torrent Freak, or the /r/piracy reddit. Again, there are no direct links, there are just website addresses and general tidbits of information and piracy-related news. They're a couple years old and still operate completely legally.

The mods stance on Audiovault is completely not understandable to me. Closing threads instead of outright deleting them is even more mysterious. I mean, if you consider  something illegal, even if wrongly, getting rid of it as fast as possible should be your preferred course of action. Closing a thread is like admitting that it's illegal, but you don't have the courage to deal with it once and for all. Either it is illegal, you know it and you delete it, or it isn't and you let it stay. anything inbetween is just plain wrong. The solution I propose is to let people link to Audio Vaults homepage, share news about it, such as downtimes, new features, movies posted or those that people want to see there, general questions such as "is x audio described", but categorically forbid direct linking. What @Grryfindore did with Game of Thrones, when the vault was down, as a mod, I would not allow. Whether I would delete it, or wait for someone to report it, is an entirely different matter.

When it comes to culture, the question is not whether any random thing is available, but whether that specific thing you want is available. If it isn't, people will resort to piracy, if it is, they usually won't. We've seen that story here repeated countless times. Back in the early 2000s, most blockbuster, american movies, which were the things people wanted to watch, were released here much later than in the rest of the world, were generally hard to get and too expensive. People started pirating. Piracy was really rampant, we were one of the worst when it came to it. Then the market shifted. Now we have Netflix and HBO Go, which lets us watch most things on line, legally. Torrenting isn't a word you hear daily any more. Some people still use streaming websites to watch the things not legally available here, as there's no other way, but piracy has sharply declined. I believe this will be the case with AD too. If it all was about some audio description for something being available, you could argue that there's no need to make special libraries for the blind, there's Gutenberg, which is free and legal! The point is that Gutenberg only contains classics that most people don't really want to read. They want to read that new Harry Potter / fifty shades of Gray / whatever book that just came out, not Tom Sawyer's Adventures or the King James Bible. This is also true with audio description, and as long as the market won't be fulfilled, things like Audio vault or the Movie Vault or Sero or BT Sync folder or mailing lists or FTPS or private torrent trackers will spring up, no matter what. It's like a Hydra. You close one down, two more appear. This is a battle copyright holders can not, and will not win. Those are objective facts. We've seen this happen in the mainstream world over and over again. This will happen here too. The only way to break the wheel instead of spinning it once more is to provide legal, viable alternatives at an acceptable price. No regulation, police raids or website closures will work here. They never do, when it comes to piracy. When there will be legal alternatives offering what people want, Audio Vault will disappear or shrink significantly. Doing it all will still be technically viable, but no one will bother. I can already see that happening. I'm a loyal Netflix customer, and I very much prefer watching instantly with no download, with synchronisation between my devices, nice overviews, recommendations, instant availability, subtitles and the actual video, of I ever want to wach something together with a sighted person. Netflix has enough content I want that I barely watch stuff off Netflix any more. I probably would have used  the vault for Chernobyl and Game of Thrones, as those are the TV shows I really wanted to see, fortunately, I could actually watch them with my family, which is even better than normal AD. A similar situation happened in the mainstream world. When spotify, Netflix and similar gave access to great works of culture in a legal way, people suddenly stopped being interested in piracy.

To sum up, I think we should wait and see what the mods make of this post. If their stance doesn't change, I'm afraid there's a need to move. If we adopt a "no direct linking allowed, but everything else is fine" policy, no matter where we go, we are pretty safe. The not really legal stuf should be moved somewhere else. Mailing lists are pretty indestructible, as, when one dies, the admin can recreate it and add all the members by email, and there's no way to delete an "unwanted" message from the mailboxes of all members. Telegram might also work for it, as they, generally, don't care, you don't have to reveal your phone number for it to work, and they support sharing files upto 1.5gb in size. They also have pretty nice group management features, and are pretty accessible on iOs, Android and Windows 10 via Unigram, and completely accessible in the web browser. I'm sure a suitable place will be found. In the safe community, pointers to such a place or places should be posted, with the appropriate warnings, and whether people join it or not should be their own decision.

ps. For those who still thing copyright is actually beneficial and is for the good of authors, you should really dive into it's history and inner workings. Here's a nice article that presents it in an understandable form. I guarantee you, at least 95% of you will be shocked at what you see. https://questioncopyright.org/promise

ps2. I'm not your lawyer, this is not legal advice, I'm not responsible for what you do, etc. etc. etc.

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2019-07-06 13:53:43

How do you guys like  Simple Machines Forum?
I'm running a website for a GPRO team and  we're using SMF. It is not super elegant to work with but it is completely accessible though. I'm pretty sure with a few adjustments it can even be better than pun bb in regards to ease of use.

John Petrucci Fan all the time.
twitter: @hadirezae3
skype ID: hadi.gsf7

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2019-07-06 13:55:08

@70: That is down to region locking, distribution deals, licensing, et al. Also, TorrentFreak does *not* solely discuss piracy. It discusses news over a wide range of subjects. They are not, ever, a piracy site.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2019-07-06 14:20:46

@72: But they *do* discuss piracy, and they link to piracy sites, i.e. the best torrent sites of xxxx posts they do every year.

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2019-07-06 14:37:43

Except that torrents are used for more than just piracy, however. There are many, many legitimate uses for torrents, yet the average assumption (as you've done) is jump straight to piracy. That's not the case at all.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2019-07-06 16:23:57

my point still stands. THey link to sites full of pirated content and nothing happens.

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