The shitshow at the top of general game discussion is enough stress me the hell out and I'm just a semi-regular member for crying out loud! I suppose the thing to remember as far as moderation is concerned, you don't get to speculate on reasons for quitting till you've done it yourself. Similar to how you can't speculate on whether or not your waiter/waitress deserves that 15 or 20% tip rather than a lousy 10% until you've worked on a grossly underpaid salary that depends on tips, unless of course their service is legitimately low quality.
Well, as someone who has the utmost respect for the facts, and for folks like Nocturnis, and as one of the staff team for the past half-year or so - a year during which, I might add, a fair amount of action has had to take place - I really don't appreciate being linked to Lori/Walter, to cover-ups, to corruption, to having to look the other way or anything else of the sort. I merit no such comparisons. For better or for worse, the mistakes I've made and choices I've taken up have all been pretty straightforward, and I tend to own my choices pretty openly. The assumption that a supposedly secretive culture of communication which may once have existed on list still continues is nothing more or less than an attempt to stir up flames. What's the point? What good does it do except to bring a few naysayers out of the woodwork to nod sagely and say "See? Yup. Just as I thought" even if no proof has been furnished?
I don't deserve this. The team in general does not deserve this. Knock it off.
I really don't appreciate being linked to Lori/Walter, to cover-ups, to corruption, to having to look the other way or anything else of the sort. I merit no such comparisons. For better or for worse, the mistakes I've made and choices I've taken up have all been pretty straightforward, and I tend to own my choices pretty openly. The assumption that a supposedly secretive culture of communication which may once have existed on list still continues is nothing more or less than an attempt to stir up flames.
Fair point, it's possible things are different now than they were 6 months ago. I haven't been around much since then. You may have changed since then too, but I don't think you should consider your hands clean, and state it so boldly. It seems like declaring ones self free of wrong-doing would only encourage people to point out the wrong-doings.
It seems like declaring ones self free of wrong-doing would only encourage people to point out the wrong-doings.
moot point. Its as if I had cited this and would just try to mention the times things were stirred up, which pretty much looks like it. See the great irony?
to me, everything still stands as it is... speculation needs to stop and post 24 is exactly the reason. There are plenty of other forums for that kind of stuff and last time there was too much of that here, look at what happened. We will get nowhere with this anymore, so topic put to rest at least in this end of the viewpoint spectrum.
I must at mid that this decision also came as a shock to me, but I fully respect your choice. Thanks for all the great work you have done. You have made a great difference.
If you like the post, then please give it a thumps up.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Happy gaming... :D
I haven't changed much in the six months I've been a mod. My desire to hunt down the truth is as it ever was - in other words, tireless - and my tendency to chase is still very much in evidence. I am capable of weighing many viewpoints, and while I have definitely made mistakes, I've owned them without reservation. I'm not perfect, and I'm not going to try and kid anyone about that. I began my tenure by being part of a crackdown that went quite a long way too far. I've been harsh at times. But I have, above all, been transparent, open to valid criticism and reasonably fair-minded. I don't let personal grudges get in my way.
And why do I mention all of this in a thread that is mostly meant to discuss Liam leaving?
It's simple, really. I'm just tired of the backbiting.
If you haven't been on the staff list in the last six months, you have no reason to speculate as to how it's being run, or why a person is leaving. Doing so without any proof or any cause just casts doubt on past actions and makes you look bad. I am very ready to call a spade a spade and say that the pursuit of truth can sometimes come with a personal grudge attached; I sense some lingering bitterness due to past misdeeds and mishandled situations, but the current staff team does not deserve this sort of judgment...unless, of course, you're about to be part of another tell-all which will shed light on the state of the staff team and its decision-making for all and sundry to peruse?
No? Not going to do that?
Great. Then let us do our job. Enough with the snide behind-the-hand "it was probably such-and-such, it just about has to be". I've been harping on a lot lately about bad faith, and this was absolutely a bad-faith attempt at speculation.
If you want to come forward with proof/evidence/other compelling reasons why a certain thing happened, or is happening, fine. I welcome it, and I know that there is nothing I need to be afraid of or disgusted for. I have nothing to hide. Let me put this into perspective. I've dealt with cloning, personal attacks, silly infighting between users, long-winded political arguments, multiple accounts, tireless arguments that go in circles...and this sort of sneaky suspicion-raising is probably the most personally troubling for me. It tells me that no matter how good a job one might do, there will always be someone ready to throw a little mud in the name of so-called truth. There will always be someone ready to take a shot from the sidelines and then spit-polish their own image. There will always be those who are ready, as well, to defend such people because they were part of change that needed to happen, implying that any attempted conspiracy-theorizing on their part must contain at least a nugget of truth simply because of their prior proximity to a situation that is now half a year dead. News flash: it doesn't work that way. Ignorance is ignorance, pure and simple, and I'm just a bit done with having to field it.
I have a question.
I understand the all part, but who is this Sundry character.
Jesus you do like your little bizz words don'tcha.
Some dude who got dried out in the sun I think, Liam.
I haven't changed much in the six months I've been a mod. My desire to hunt down the truth is as it ever was - in other words, tireless - and my tendency to chase is still very much in evidence. I am capable of weighing many viewpoints, and while I have definitely made mistakes, I've owned them without reservation. I'm not perfect, and I'm not going to try and kid anyone about that.
You're right, you haven't changed much. Your post pretty much follows the same formula as the ones I remember from back then. You praise yourself as some sort of detective who seeks truth, do a little hand-waving to past mistakes, and then go on about a general complaint such as "character assassination" or "back biting". I guess we all have our winning formula.
Of course my post was a small jab in your direction. When you said you "don't appreciate being linked to Lori/Walter, to cover-ups, to corruption", I wanted to make sure my post pointed out the bullsh*t there. I assumed you'd just leave it be, but not only did you respond, you are jabbing right back. It sounds like you're either pushing because you don't think I'll do another "tell-all", or because you're daring me to. I can't really figure out which is the case.
I have no desire to damage this forum with more drama, but seeing some self-righteous person praise himself is no picnic. You know good and well that I view you as corrupt after how things went down. Even though you Seemed (and I'll stress the word Seemed) to have cared about truth at the very end doesn't change your actions leading up to it.
When I was still on the mod team and we were voting on how to handle the Walter/Lori situation, surprise surprise, a new mod (Jayde) was added in a hurry and voted against me. That was the tie breaker and it was decided to move forward without any punishment, condemnation, or even word to the community about the abuse of power that was central to the situation. Keep everything quiet, so no one popular would tarnish their reputation, just as had been done each time in the past the Walter/Lori situation was addressed.
We all know what happened next, I quit the team and told the community what had happened so it wouldn't be buried again.
When I was no longer a mod, I exchanged many emails with Jayde where I was basically grilled for being the trouble maker. None of that was anything unexpected, until he admitted that after he joined the mod team, he voted against me without having ever read any of the arguments or evidence surrounding the situation. The mod list archives every message posted, and any of us could read back through everything to make sure we knew what was going on.
Ever since the Walter/Lori situation first started, mods kept bending over backward to not talk about what happened. No one wanted to speak against the forum's king, and I was ignored or shut down each time I ever complained about what was happening. When you Jayde, suddenly join the mod team in the middle of a heated issue, vote to continue keeping things under the rug, and then admit you did so without even Bothering to read what the vote was about... you're just another in a long f*cking line of crooked people. You and the others are no different.
Even if you started caring about truth sometime between then and now, you were still the final straw that pushed things into the bad situation that came out of all that. You weren't the one piling up the firewood, but you corruptly decided the vote that sparked the fire. I'd already told the mod team what I would do if the whole issue was buried again, and I wasn't bluffing.
*wonders if maybe I should have stayed instead?*
@36 maybe, I don't know.
@35 Thank you, I'm so mad at this guy right now, if I started writing about him I'd get permabanned for sure.
goodly said aprone! thumbs up to you!
and yeah, maybe you should've liam.
Ok, what aprone said needed to be said, but why the bluddy hell is this being talked about in a topic where liam decided to leave?
If it takes three votes to decide an issue, it is logically flawed to assume that one vote holds more water than the others.
Was my vote in error? Ultimately, sure it was. I've never denied that. It was made with incomplete info. This info was not willfully incomplete, however, and I think that fact got lost in translation. You label it as "corrupt" when, at worst, it was ignorant. Ignorance I have since owned up to. I made a decision with what I thought was a complete picture, and I did not have a complete picture. Ironically, it was one of Nocturnis's posts that convinced me. There is an enormous difference between an honest mistake and a desire to shove things under the rug. It should also be mentioned that the audiogames.net mailing list is quite honestly the first mailing list I have ever belonged to; I didn't even know there -were archives, much less how to comb through them. I went with the info I was given. That info was incomplete. I did not know this, and whether one should expect me to have known it is, I think, debatable. I cast a vote not knowing I had a picture that wasn't whole. That vote broke a tie. In its aftermath, I learned more, and was a large part of pushing for more transparency, a public apology and an admission of wrongdoing on behalf of the team at large. I don't really see what else I could have or should have done under the circumstances.
At no point, not one, did I admit to knowing I was missing info and voting anyway. If I had, then your charge of corruption would stand. I have all of the emails we exchanged, as well, and it bears mentioning that you were not the only one being grilled. Your near-obsession with making Dark answer to your satisfaction was quite troubling, and was one of the larger reasons I eventually stopped responding to you. We both rubbed one another's fur pretty vigorously the wrong way, I think, but what I got out of it at the time was that there was really nothing that would be good enough for you.
Aprone, I think you've gotten so oversensitized to people shoving things under rugs that you jumped the gun. I was hoping six months of time would curb your tendency to start fires in order to root things out - things which, in this case, don't even exist - but I was mistaken. I'm sorry for that.
All I see now is a person who can't let go of a past that is long dead. I have no idea what the end goal is, seriously. Why walk into a totally unrelated topic and take jabs at someone? To me, that just smacks of immaturity and an inability to process facts.
To all of the rest of you, I want to say, for my part at least, that I am sorry for this forum drama, sorry that I feel it necessary to defend myself against this. It feels a lot like undeserved character assassination. Liam left the team with no bad blood, as far as I'm aware, and I find it shameful that his leaving has been stirred up into this.
1. What does all this have to do with Liam leaving as a moderator?
2. If you are having issues with one specific moderator and not all of them, you should consider taking those issues privately instead of causing even more drama. You should have known better than this, especially when you have been a moderator yourself.
3. I hoped you would just move on and try to forget what happened long time ago. But instead, you are just sitting there, as a previous moderator, making drama of one of the other moderators. At the same time you are saying, that you don't wanna damage this forum with more drama. That's exactly what you are doing, when you won't try to move on.
So, guys, shouldn't we try to move on? Or is drama what you want? It's up to you...
If you like the post, then please give it a thumps up.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Happy gaming... :D
#42 (edited by GauravSharma 2019-06-11 16:23:27)
@Liam, this forum, am sorry to say, had it coming. Sup With all the degeneracy going on. You've helped through some real turbulent times, thanks a lotfor that. I feel, though, that the "turbulence" is only going to increase. I love the word degeneracy! It's not as good as regeneracy, though. (though I wish the forum was going through the former instead of ladder in terms of toxic entropy...)
Find me on Twitter
I would love to know how Aprone is making drama, starting fires, keeping stuff going, etc. I personally *want* to know just who decides my and others' fate here, and if those are trustworthy individuals. Oh I think I understand, it's one of the first time blind people are being called out by a sighted individual for their fucked up machinations. Well, it's all true, the blind community is a dumpster fire.
People in positions of power are generally watched scrupulously, it's part of the job.
What the hell does that have to do with somebody being blind or sighted? Are you that superior to this community? As far as it can be seen, you are a part of it, just like all of us.
Apronne's sight, and my lack of it (or Dark's, or anyone else's) is absolutely irrelevant.
I agree that those who hold power need to stand accountable. But there is a difference between standing accountable and having to dance a jig just to remain that way. I'll happily do the former, but am not so willing to do the latter.
See my last post for a really clear explanation of what I can and will do regarding self-defense. In particular, I do not particularly enjoy having words put in my mouth and intentions put in my heart. That is no right of anyone else's.
And Ironcross, to tell the truth, it was actually one of your earlier posts in this thread that truly made me upset. Aprone stirred things a little, you came in and made things considerably worse with your bloody sinking-ship analogy. Aprone just upped the ante when I decided not to let those comments lie. Maybe I should have? Who knows. But there is such a thing as tacit acceptance, and that's what my silence would have suggested.
As it stands, my prior post should act as a pretty clear example of what really happened. Now, can we stamp this fire out and get back to the business of audio games?
#46 (edited by Aprone 2019-06-11 18:15:17)
SLJ, to your 4 questions:
1. This has nothing to do with Liam leaving as a moderator. Jayde said something in post 31 that I disagreed with, and I made a post addressing that. If, in a thread talking about funny dog movies, someone makes a statement like "I have never said I like cats better than dogs", then it is perfectly reasonable for you to post an example of when the person said exactly that. The normal flow of conversation often branches topics out away from their original title.
2. The fact that I've been a moderator myself is not going to make me less critical of someone making a statement that I don't believe to be true. Perhaps if I'd never been a mod I could let more things slide and just tell myself that I just don't know what sort of stress they are under, you know, lower the bar because I don't know what it's like. Well I've been a mod and I've dealt with the stress. When I said things people didn't agree with I heard about it, when people stirred up drama and dropped it in my lap I dealt with it, so I am qualified to say that this current mod can handle my criticism.
3. You're the latest mod to wish I would "Move on and forget", when it comes to problems with the mod team. I can't help but wonder how issues build up and fester.
You've missed something important when you tried to quote me.
I have no desire to damage this forum with more drama, but...
You left out the word "but". It's like saying "I really should stick to my diet, BUT..." or "That movie was good, BUT..." It means I would normally like the first half of the sentence, but a stronger reason is pushing me to do the second half.
Jayde, I'd love it if everything you've said was true, and I have a completely incorrect impression of you. I realize that for a while now I've been nothing but a thorn in the side of the mod team (more often than not, the ones who needed a thorn in their side), but I got here doing what I thought needed to be done.
You can believe I'm wrong to distrust you, but you should take a minute to view the situation from my perspective. Lets say you had been arguing with a team of people, specifically about important information being kept quiet. A few of your opponents basically promote themselves and use the new rank to add in a new team member, who promptly sides with them. After you leave this new mod praises himself in multiple posts, and then uses highly interpret-able ideas like "character assassination" to discourage people from posting negatively about your opponents. Warnings are handed out left and right, people get banned, and basically this new mod has basically started a half-dozen fires. Now as several forum threads burn and many people are in an uproar, this new mod begins grilling and criticizing you via emails. Almost right away he begins repeating many of the same character-attacking arguments your opponents used, when it was easier to attack your motives rather than your claims/evidence. Perhaps this new mod really is neutral and seeking truth, as he claims (whenever he can), but he marched into your conversation whistling the theme song of the other side. Finally as a record number of forum threads are in full-on flame mode, this mod tells you that he never read any of the evidence or arguments before he voted against you and broke the tie to cause your loss, and then he cuts off the conversation so it's the last you've spoken with him.
Perhaps this person really is a trustworthy fellow who is the victim of unfortunate timing, being fed false-info to get his support, some very bad choices on how to handle the forum, and some poor wording during a conversation. Perhaps that's all true and it led to a very bad first impression, but even if that's how it all went down, the first impression was still made. Those are very important and not easy to shake. Someone can TELL you 500 times that they are honest, seek truth, and support justice... but none of that carries as much weight as even 1 time they SHOW you the opposite.
For the sake of cutting down on the drama, I'll back off and see how things go. I'd like my mind to be changed when it comes to the mod team here, and about you as well.
Aprone, you ask me to step into your shoes, but that's really hard to do. You make a lot more assumptions than I do, for one thing. I would have begun digging/pressing/figuring things out the moment the new guy showed up and made his damning vote. I wouldn't have just quit and gone public, no matter how fed up I was. While it would not have been my responsibility to make sure the new person had done his due diligence, I'd also realize that to automatically assume corruption is logically bankrupt.
We are fundamentally very different people.
I also wouldn't downplay the positives that have happened in the months since (clarification of rules, open dialogue, accountability, formalization of warnings/bans). Frankly, it's not bragging or self-congratulation if good things did happen.
So your exercise is kind of pointless, in my opinion. Thank you for being willing to back off. I confess that at this point, I don't feel I have much left to say to you, or to anyone who holds your stance. You have demonstrated a willingness to believe whatever suits your agenda, and one cannot argue with that without wearying quickly.
@45 I think you give me too much credit. I want to know things that are going on that shouldn't be. I have a right to that information. We all do actually. If you're in a position to represent the best interests of the forum, then we need to make sure that you are the person for the job. I am convinced that you are not, which I know is contrary to my post before saying I've done a 180 on you, but I've reversed my position. You may be able to best me in arguments because of your academic knowledge, but seeing the way you act, you have no real life experience with any of the stuff you say you have studied. you're at the point now where it's time to put theory into practice; however, you are convinced you already know enough to manage things. Your attitude is arrogant and condescending to everyone that you talk to - with the possible exception of other mods. You also put yourself above everyone, seeing yourself as the therapist / counselor coming to save the day, when you don't even know the situation. You don't know who needs saving, and to what degree, but you're more than willing to go off half cocked and start chucking mandates, advice or what have you. This will cause you to fail in anything you try to do. Now is the time when you need to wake up and realize this is not going to serve you. You have no earthly idea how to talk to people. And, you trying to individualize everything that's happened is conceited.
You constantly accuse me of starting fires or stirring things up, but more often than not I'm trying to bring the truth out, because, no matter what you say about me, or my character faults - for which there are many - I believe in honesty and uncovering dishonesty and corruption. deceit doesn't serve me, it doesn't serve the community, and it doesn't serve the people being deceitful. Honesty and integrity are one of the few things that you're born with and can die with if you keep them in tact. I am an ass hole, a prick, a bastard, etc. at times, but I am not dishonest. And, think of this, when do I target people who don't have it coming? I actually don't. If I weren't here, things might simmer for a time, but someone else would come along. Someone else would get tired of it, they would lose their patience too. So, yes, I may be loud about certain things, but just because I'm not here, and the others like me aren't here, doesn't mean you'll have a thousand years of peace.
1. You want to know things that are going on that shouldn't be. That's great. Except that's not what you said. You're implying that there are things going on that shouldn't be. Huge difference. You don't know those things, and I'm telling you that, by and large, those things aren't happening.
2. You're convinced I'm not the person for the job, despite many decisions and changes which have, at least partially under my guidance and with my help, helped to improve the integrity of the forum. These changes came about as a response to some of the bad decisions and precedents that shouldn't have happened, ever. I'm doing my best to clean that up, so I don't see what the issue is.
3. Now you leap into personal judgment territory. You claim I have no experience with the stuff I study. I guess all those placement hours, classroom hours and lived experience over thirty-odd years of existence don't count? I guess you've been following me around with a clipboard determining the validity of the things I've experienced? Damn, who knew? You're a stealthy guy, I'll give you that.
Right, where were we? Ah yes. Predicating my unsuitability as a mod upon knowledge I didn't know you had. Knowledge you can't seem to prove.
4. My attitude is arrogant and condescending to everyone I talk to, with the possible exception of other mods. This is, again, news to me. I didn't know you'd planted listening devices in my home, in my phone, in my place of work, in my school, and everywhere else I might visit. Very industrious of you. The fact is, you yourself, and a handful of others, might very well be able to claim I'm arrogant. I can't and won't try and take that away from you. But where you fall down is when you start implying that this is a universal truth when it isn't.
5. You imply that I put myself above others, that I see myself as the counsellor/therapist out to save the day, that I always assume I know best. Now you've switched to mindreading. Dude, you have absolutely got to get on a talk show with these mad skills of yours; you'd make millions! In case my treacle-thick sarcasm isn't apparent yet, let me dispense with it now and slam home a point. You don't know what I think. You know only what you're reflecting. It upsets you that I can best you in academic arguments (by your own admission, you said this bit yourself), and so rather than just take that as its own thing, you turn it into some sort of superiority complex, or worse. I'm not quite sure where you get off doing any of this, but hey-ho, let's go on.
6. I have no earthly idea how to talk to people. Most of my colleagues, friends, family members, instructors and classmates would tell you otherwise. I do make mistakes sometimes. I'll freely admit it. But there's a difference between "sometimes you seem like x" and the drivel you're spouting at this point. You're attempting to make me look really, really awful by hyperbolizing the depth and breadth of my bad points. Try harder, and with a little more accuracy if you attempt this again.
7. When do you target people when they don't have it coming? You're doing it right now. Maybe it's the fact that you can't stand someone on the left dancing circles round you academically. Maybe it's that I can be very, very sharp and even sarcastic (see above) when I'm driving points home. Maybe you can't let go of the past. Maybe you would rather take someone else's word than mine, no matter what I say. Maybe you're just plain straight-up no-bones-about-it wrong, and you need to take a deep, calming breath or two and own it. Because right now, all I'm getting from you is hostility. It is hostility I haven't earned, and the hyperbole which peppered this post of yours is fertile grounds to bring a character assassination charge against you. I can't do it myself - obvious conflict of interest - but to me, this is pretty clear-cut. If you want to criticize me, go right ahead, but be reasonable. Put things in context. If you want to lay it on thick, bring the evidence. But if you really think this is a hill to die on, start another thread, and we can burn all sorts of things instead of further sullying this thread about a fellow mod who did no wrong.
By your own admission, you can be an asshole and a bastard. Give that some thought.