@49, if you believe post 47 was intended for you specifically, the answer is no. I realize that there is always an exception to every rule. If you're the exception, then you are and I'm sorry you even thought that for a minute.
As far as why polarizing opinions have become the norm? Blame social media. It's kind of like TV; supply in demand. You need to produce something that is controversial to jack up the ratings, even if it is toxic. FB and Twitter are so full of information and misinformation and so many people who are unwilling to figure out which is which, but they are willing to look like they know rather than be seen as silent fools. I remember once upon a time there used to be a quote about how it was better to remain silent and be thought stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Today, annonimity makes it less than necessary to make that a consideration, because no one knows who you are, stupid or not.
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i've had it with NVDA, i think. (Page 3 of 5)
AudioGames.net Forum → Off-topic room → i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Posts: 51 to 75 of 114
#51 2019-05-02 20:26:50
#52 2019-05-02 20:31:21
Not sure how often I doublepost, but I doubt it's as often as all that, so if I'm taking the liberty to do so right now, it's simply to say that Ethin and I don't always agree, but 50 has a ton of well worded insight.
In fact, methinks I banned Ethin at one point? Make of that what you will.
#53 2019-05-02 20:32:20 (edited by Ethin 2019-05-02 20:33:37)
I removed my last few sentences because it was (IMO) over the line, but the rest remains. And yes, Nockternus, you did ban me once. (Sorry if I misspelled your name.) I'm just really getting irritated with all this wining and complaining when most of the time the issues aren't really issues or they're issues only in particular circumstances (see: post 50).
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#54 2019-05-02 20:35:40
I had a good laugh out of the list in post 43. NVDA has no UIA support in office? Okay then, could you go tell that to Mic? I'm sure he'd be really happy to know that something he was debugging for months now does not even exist. Moreover, weren't some of you saying how UIA support in office is a hacky workaround? Now, we do need it? Firefox is bad with NVDA and eats a lot of resources? Okay then, so why not try something else? Fortunately, there are tons of alternatives to choose from. It is nothing bad that a screen reader does not work well with a certain browser, even though this is not the case with Firefox. However, NVDA had way better Chrome support than Jaws for quite a while, so what? Jaws users happily used Firefox until it got better. Office performance was also improved in the latest release, so you may want to update your knowledge and not post about issues from last version even though I know you want your list to have as many items as possible. Similarly, the large CMD output no longer freezes the entire PC and you can simply restart NVDA. I know, not ideal, but it is being worked on, so it is no longer a major issue.
#55 2019-05-02 20:40:05
@47 yeah pretty much.
@40 and you, and your little buddies with their heads firmly implanted in their rear ends are grating on mine.
#56 2019-05-02 20:42:19
Also, I know that UIA support for NVDA does exist? You wana know how? Not just the advanced settings list, but I *gasp* working on homework for class that used tables and headers and word and... *gasp*... less than 250 ms lag! And it worked! Quite nicely, in fact! It didn't tell me that there was acolumn next to the column I had highlighted, but I don't really consider that much of a problem anyway since my settings for that might've prevented that. And I used word a few hours ago too! *gasp*... it worked! Wonderfully!
I use apps on a daily basis that print huge amounts of text to the console, and... *gasp* NVDA's pretty happy with it too.
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#57 2019-05-02 20:44:21 (edited by Ethin 2019-05-02 20:45:22)
@55, no, your just irritated that something in your computer setup is destabilizing your copy of NVDA and you are quite happy to blame it on NVAccess even though the likelihood of all your problems being with NVDA is about 50-50. I'd check your computer first though. (hint: sedlauncher.exe was taking up more CPU than NVDA was at one point on my system, caused some lag with that one. Didn't help that my computer was running in "ultra-low power mode" either.)
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#58 2019-05-02 20:45:49
All you have to do to know about the UIA support is read the changelog, nothing else. And, if you are that unhappy with NVDA, shouldn't you read it to see if anything has been fixed? As for the CMD thing, it happens in some cases. For example, when debugging for Android and you use adb logcat, that prints constantly huge amounts of text and I did experience that freeze. However, all I did was restart NVDA and I could see the output normally.
#59 2019-05-02 20:50:24
Oh yeah, something in my setup is to blame, despite three complete reinstalls of NVDA and one complete install of the OS from scratch, yep, sure, logical indeed.
#60 2019-05-02 20:50:47
@58, yep, suffered similar once when curl blasted my console with a huge binary file over SSH. (I had forgotten to use -O.) Was not fun.
The issue of NVDA freezing when an application crashes is definitely an issue that I will agree on -- that actually is an issue. Its probably not going to be fixed unless NVAccess changes the way NVDA interacts with the system, and the only reason -- or at least one of the reasons -- that its set up the way its set up is so they don't need to add a mock display driver in there like JAWS did and still does. I can deal with it, though it pisses me off sometimes (especially when I need to interact with an app to generate a crash). I can usuallyget the debugger to print the backtrace before I terminate the app and restart NVDA though.
My Github
#61 2019-05-02 20:55:04
Well, actually it all reminds me last year, when the breaking news was, that classic skype will be no more. So I installed this new one and those first weeks were hell! I was completely confused and pissed trying to figure this new shit out, but fortunately over time skype itself has gotten somewhat better and of course familiarity with the new one began to grow.
In 2004 I got my first computer and of course started exploring what interested me the most: ways to make music on it without buying software "No cracking, only freeware.". And how many times have I bumped into that hard wall of finding so many interesting programs and understanding, that I simply can not use them due to not being accessible, at all. So then I also thought, why in hell aren't developers aware of some other kind of users, like blind ones. So that's from where I know that "Why the hell nothing gets fixed or done!" feeling.
Next easy step is to sit down and think. If I can read, understand and write code, there's at least some chance I can change something and if not, like in My personal case, there's no way my being angry or even exploading from that could fix anything.
There's yet another interesting phenomenan still not showing any signs of going away and that's that superdefenciveness we tend to experience and express as users of different screen readers. Why this "My dogg is better than your dogg" effect?
I would be seriously interested in a little time trip into the future to see, if a study on this has been conducted - a serious psychological study I mean and not at all in a sour manner I mean this. I'm genuinly curious, what's the nature of this thing.
I hope my thought blast doesn't mess up the topic completely, but it's quite a mess already so may-be it has a calming effect instead.
#62 2019-05-02 21:04:53
Like I said in 45, I'm not discounting the issues exist. I encountered a ton of issues about a year ago where lag and other things were concerned and did two things.
1. I got rid of a program intended to run linux virtually... I still believe it was causing a ton of keyboard conflict, and while I can't prove it I figured the worst that could happen was that I wasn't going to have it anymore.
2. I stopped running NVDA as a snapshot. Shame shame, I know, but I figured it might just make my particular problems go away.
I'm not sure which of those 2 options actually did it, but the fact is that since September of last year I've experienced no issue I can trace back to NVDA. I'm pretty sure I have to replace my audio-interface, pretty sure my motherboard is just about shot, and there's probably some issues with my SSD because I'm running windows 7 on a computer that's meant to run win10 and really doesn't have all the proper drivers installed for this particular job, but that's not NVDA's fault, anymore than the world being round is mine. Besides, this laptop is about 3 years old, is constantly running, is made by HP, had a ton of bloatware thanks to best-buy when I first got it, and so on.
So, you see, the variables are many! I have an issue with JFW where, if windows shows me a tooltip while I'm browsing in explorer, explorer crashes. After the process resumes, I cannot get into any drive and get an error about remote procedure call failing and not excecuting. There are three ways to deal with that one in particular: I can restart the machine, run chkdsk which works for some odd reason, or I can wait about 20 minutes for remote procedure call and RTC locater to sort themselves out. All of those fixes, however, are temporary fixes and last only until the issue rears its ugly head again.
But which is really to fault here? I've suffered that issue on three machines, 1 running windows Vista with JFW 12, 1 running windows 7 and JFW 14 and 15, and my last desktop which had a copy of JFW 17 installed on it. One machine was an HP laptop; the other two were Dell desktops. I tried unplugging external harddrives to see if it was simply a lag issue, tried ending a bunch of processes, tried reproducing the issue with NVDA instead of JFW running, but no dice. I tried getting JFW users' help with it, and as you will notice if you read that, almost none responded. Of those who did, they either were having the same issue and knew not how to fix it, or were not having eh issue at all. Interestingly enough, most of the suggestions, you can clearly see, came form peopel who were using multiple screen readers and didn't make JAWS their only solution. I find it just as interesting that many people seem to think NVDa users are just being hateful and unreasonable, but when someone sas their product is not up to scratch they do get mighty defensive or don't take the person in question seriously, as proven by above linkage.
#63 2019-05-02 22:30:21
Hi Nid,
Note that I said UIA support in office, not specificly word. Word does have experimental UIA support, but does NVDA support UIA in outlook? powerpoint? Excell, where performance is shit? Noep. And UIA in word is shit. It won't even read comments and rivisions.
And ethin, firefox must slow then my pc then? What if I told you that the problem magically disappears when I turn off NVDA and have a sighted person use firefox?
And the CMD issue must also be a nitch issue some crazy people have, because there is an issue like from 11 years ago! So basicly you are talking down to me as if I don't know how to use a computer and know the features of NVDA. I assure you I do, and I run NVDA in snapshot mode. I am well aware of the changes, as well as the future ones in the pipeline.
The fact of the matter is, NVAccess need to catch! up!
#64 2019-05-02 22:33:53
Or perhaps you should try running without snapshot? Methinks I just addressed that above.
#65 2019-05-02 22:35:18
I don't have many problems with NVDA.
On my old laptop, it used to freeze in such a way that it wasn't possible to interrupt anything, and it pretty much kept going like my math textbook until I restarted it.
I remember games like Redspot seemed to trigger that.
This issue seems to have vanished though.
NVDA can be laggy on this computer, but we're talking a 32 bit that has 50 programs installed, exactly 3 of which need to be running.
#66 2019-05-02 22:36:36 (edited by Nikola 2019-05-02 22:45:58)
It is only called UIA word support. The fact is, it covers outlook message reading slash writing as well since they use the same interfaces, Please, listen to this recent interview with NV Access found at http://www.blindbargains.com/b/20030
and actually, they need to catch up to what? Both Jaws and NVDA have their user bases, and none of them are dead or out of date with something.
edit: The user guide mentions Outlook as well, so I would definitely say some reading is required before bashing.
Edit2: I, probably NV access or every single developer in this world wont care to fix your problems when you cannot explain them in anything but UIA support is shit. Too bad, it will probably remain so for you with that kind of feedback.
#67 2019-05-02 22:55:50
Moderation:
Ironcross, I'm going to issue a rather late-in-coming caution here. Your original few posts on this thread were extremely incendiary. I'm glad you've backed off a bit, because I would have felt it necessary to warn you otherwise. Thank you for taking yourself in rein a bit. I understand that this sort of thing makes you upset.
end
moderation
It makes me upset as well, honestly. I haven't had these NVDA issues, but in saying that I am not attempting to invalidate those of you who struggle, either. NVDA isn't perfect, and that's all right. It's good at a lot of things, has issues with a few others. There seems to be a mentality, however, which goes like this: "Well, it's not happening to me. Have you tried this?". And on the face of it, that's not a terrible idea. But what it does is sort of assumes that said NVDA user is probably looking down at the other person, even if it's not what they mean to do. Imagine a woman who walks into a hardware store and goes up to a salesman and says, "I'm having such-and-such a problem", then gets fairly specific. If the salesman says, "I don't see why you're having that issue" and then suggests something fairly simple, that woman may feel like she's being talked down to. I respect that you are, in your way, trying to help, but just consider how it comes across. Some of it is down to user error and configuration, of course, but not all.
In my experience, though, I've noticed a funny thing. This "I don't have that problem" mentality seems more strident among primary NVDA users than Jaws users. I may be wrong, but who knows? And I wonder why that might be...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#68 2019-05-02 23:40:01 (edited by Ethin 2019-05-02 23:41:19)
@63, just... wow. Just omg wow. Hate to say it man but your post screamed immaturity from the get go. Listen up, and listen close:
Stop comparing NVDA to JAWS!
Got that in your head? Good. Now, for the real meetgrinder:
NvDA does not read comments. OK. I've suffered that. That's not much of an issue since annotations and other things that you'd put in a comment can usually be delivered in emails. Ever considered asking your instructors to send you an email containing their comments? Or, even better, have you considered the possibility -- the possibility -- that *gasp* MS does not expose comments through UIA? Ever thought of that in your rage and anger and hate towards all things NVAccess?
Now, please stop raging. Its only making you look like a child, dude. Grow up.
And NVDA needs to catch up to what, exactly? They're using the tools they have at their disposal. If an API they have doesn't expose something that users need, and there isn't a better API to do it, then it can't be done any better than it already is. Simple as that. Oh, they can hack -- but hacks usually don't work.
@Jade, yeah, they do seem to mostly be coming from people who use JAWS, or use JAWS primarily. So JAWS users or people who use JAWS as their primary screen reader... stop comparing NVDA to JAWS; that's like apples and oranges!
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#69 2019-05-02 23:49:30
bro, you're not even contributing anything to this topic, you're just splooging all over it.
#70 2019-05-03 00:01:46 (edited by Ethin 2019-05-03 00:02:41)
@69, uh, I actually am contributing to it. I'm giving various insites that people like you and Enes are quite happy to ignore. Which is perfectly fine if you want to spam NVAccess with issues and generally get ignored and seen as a winy person. So no, I'm not spluging all over it, as you put it. If I was, people would've said so a while ago. You could, of course, always fix the issues your having in NVDA core yourself (or stop running snapshot builds, as Nocternus recommended...)
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#71 2019-05-03 00:12:15
@69 oh yeah, and your posts totally contribute to what exactly? Even that one does not.
@ jayde, sorry, but it's normal that when somebody is experiencing an issue, they get asked such questions, no matter how basic they are. Go report a bug to Freedom scientific and they will do the same, or in fact any company will simply to avoid wasting time looking to see what is wrong in their code while it could simply have been user error, no matter how advanced somebody is with computers, , everybody can forget a setting or misconfigure something every once in a while. So, if you feel offended with that, then I don't see how anybody can help. You are experiencing an issue, you are sure it's not your error, so why not just answer the questions and try what people tell you? It's the most logical procedure for reporting bugs, and has nothing to do with NVDA or Jaws. Microsoft recommends rebooting your PC for so many different things, would you just say really, this company thinks I'm dumb and I didn't try that already? Sure I know some people would, but you do not have a label on your face saying I'm a computer genious.
#72 2019-05-03 00:22:02
I run NVDA on 40-50 computers at work.
They run windows 10 pro, windows 10 enterprise LTSC and different hardware configurations, at least three or four different CPUs. They also do have different software installed and are lightly customized by the employees.
I've never had the issues mentioned on these workstations.
I almost suspect that there's something wrong with your windows installation or your software environment. but i'm not a NVDA dev so.
discord: Hadi
#73 2019-05-03 00:24:32
Jayde, I completely agree with you. And since I am a power user, really simplistic advice is very demeaning.
So ethin, I will speak they way you speak with me. So basicly your saying that just because a few coders were really lazy and didn't add really simple support to my screen reader my instructors have deliver 300 comments in an e-mail? Maybe it is you who should grow up, not me. If microsoft didn't add comment reading ability, how is Jaws able to do it then?
Also this problem is not related to snapshot builds. The fact of the matter is, NVDA is lagging behind and it needs to catch up. Many people are reporting this, not just me.
#74 2019-05-03 01:04:00
@70 uh, you don't know what I'm running and not running, so telling me to not run snapshots makes no sense, you're making assumptions, incorrect ones in this case. Also, spamming with issues, what is this bullshit, I may have filed at most, 4 or 5 in 10 years. Do at least have some handle on what you're talking about before you go running off your mouth.
@71 You're not helping either, basically coming off with your ecerbic and insulting comments. Assuming people are stupid because they have these issues where others don't.
#75 2019-05-03 01:05:28 (edited by Ethin 2019-05-03 01:15:26)
@73, Nidsa07 already pointed out why people give simplistic advice before going and immediately thinking that its a problem with the program. I shall not reiterate it in this post.
Second, JAWS does not just rely on UIA and iAccessible2 for accessibility as NVDA does. JAWS relies on three components: the video intercept driver, UIA, and MSAA. (It may also rely on IAccessible2 and other APIs that I don't know of.) Either way, JAWS is capable of directly intercepting what is being drawn to the screen and where its being drawn. Scripts (a.k.a. hacks) can therefore be implemented to detect what's being drawn and, using that information, can deliver that information to the user. NVDA does not do this, for obvious reasons. I have no doubt that JAWS's codebase has surpassed the "unmaintainable" state and the only reason that its still maintained is because the developers know the code so well.
Now, before you come to the (understandable, but false) conclusion that JAWS is superior in this matter, it is not. In fact, the methods that I believe JAWS uses is in fact inferior to what NVDA does. JAWS relies on what the graphics card is drawing to get textual information. This means it has to do a lot more internal computation in order to figure out what exactly is important and what isn't. Add to that the UIA layer and you've got yourself a pretty big mess. Add MSAA and (optionally) IAccessible2 and you've got yourself... something indescribable. NVDA takes this concept of bloated accessibility and simplifies it. It relies on UIA, MSAA and IAccessible2 only when each technology is needed. If I'm not mistaken, NVDA prioritizes accessibility information: if UIA's information is better than IAccessible2, it runs with what UIA gives, and so on. This greatly simplifies not only the collection and maagement of accessibility information, but it also makes it much easier to hook into other accessibility APIs when its time to add them.
These are theories, however. I cannot attest that these claims are actually accurate, as I am not an NVDA or JAWS developer (thank god I'm not a JAWS dev, I'd hate that). However, its a pretty good assumption and would be the logical way to go about it.
You say that "many people are reporting this." Are they annotating other issues or creating new ones. If they're creating new issues, then no wonder NVAccess is so slow-- they have to sort through *every* issue, assign it, and close them and so on. A common git hub practice when reporting issues (I don't understand why people wouldn't do this) is to find the issue about the subject in question, read through it to se if there are suggestions you have not considered, and then, if you have exhausted all suggestions in the issue, you indicate that you, too, are suffering the issue. If people wouldn't open thousands of issues about the same issue and follow common git hub practices, I doubt NVAccess would be so slow-moving, nor do I think they'd have so many issues open.
@74, did I say that you were spamming them with issues? No, I did not. I said hat you most likely would. Please read my post more carefully instead of going on a tangent at the slightest movement. And I'll take the "stupid" part of your last sentence: none of us who said we weren't having these issues assumed (at least, I didn't) that you were stupid for 'having these issues'. We point out simplistic things as a diagnostic device. It is quite literally the first thing any organization or group of developers will tell you to do when you go to them with a problem. Do not assume, then, that that organization or group of developers thinks you are stupid. That is such an erroneous assumption as to be laughable. It is a basic diagnostic tool to ensure that the issue is not a user error and is in fact a code-related issue. Whether you take it as condescension is extremely weird, IMO.
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